How can Pakistan counter India’s ABM system?

[Developereo]

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Now you are again mixing us the two concepts .. an aircraft has essentially two kinds of detection techniques..one is the radar(range 300 Km for an AWACS) and second one is IRST(Infra red search and track).
So question is does your AWACS or any other plane carry a IRST?

Second point here being tracking range of an IRST is just 20 Kms..so if you start tracking the missile at just 20 Km from the target ..you are as good as dead.

Fair point. I would say the early detection would have to rely on satellites or whatever mechanism detects BM launches.
I would expect China has full coverage of India in that respect, so Pakistan just needs to tap into that.

Contrary to your belief no missile has a straight line trjectoy ..external forces such as air resistance are constantly throwing it of its planned path..and the missile guidance sys is also constantly trying to bring it back to its planned path hence every missile is in constant state monouver deviating upto hundreds of meters from its planned path and then coming back to it and then deviatingagain..hence it is at best a zig-zag motion.

Second point here being all cruise missile have the ability to change their course at will, infact many just like Bhramos and Tomahawk also follow a terminal 'S' manouvere to fool the interceptors.

So if the interceptor missile is not able to to manouvere at the same speed as the target it will never be able to intercept the missile.

Even if the interceptor misses its target by one meter ..it is still a miss.

As far ability of CIWS to destroy the missile..it theoretically exists, but the missile will have to extremely close to its target as CIWS do not have much range and even if destroyed the oncoming debris(at mach 3.2) has enough kinetic energy to totally decimate the target.

The BrahMos doesn't do sharp 90 degree turns; it does flattened S-curves. It has to; because of its high forward momentum. So the speed that needs to be matched is not its forward speed, but the speed of lateral manoevers. That will be much less than the forward mach 3.

Secondly, whatever manoevers it is doing are preprogrammed. They are not evasive manoeuvers to match any intgerceptor since the heat seeking interceptor is fully passive. The BrahMos isn't even aware of the interceptor.

Are you serious....
Or just blabbermouthing what ever comes there.... like your friend notorious
Here's what your esteemed poster had to say about surface temperature of brahmos....

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-d...tml#post783777

Think before what you say... and think again when you write that to someone.
You two are just making a laughing stock of yourselves here with No knowledge about the subject at all....

This is sad.

http://**********************/strate...tml#post139824

The heat I was referring to was just the skin temperature at Mach 2.8. At sea level the air is denser and will exaggerate the heating effect; temperatures are expected to be approximately 1,000°F or 537.8°C. This is well within the capability of passive IR 'heat seeking' missiles Mid-wavelength infrared (MWIR) sensors.

[mafiya]

Fair point. I would say the early detection would have to rely on satellites or whatever mechanism detects BM launches.
I would expect China has full coverage of India in that respect, so Pakistan just needs to tap into that.



The BrahMos doesn't do sharp 90 degree turns; it does flattened S-curves. It has to; because of its high forward momentum. So the speed that needs to be matched is not its forward speed, but the speed of lateral manoevers. That will be much less than the forward mach 3.

Secondly, whatever manoevers it is doing are preprogrammed. They are not evasive manoeuvers to match any intgerceptor since the heat seeking interceptor is fully passive. The BrahMos isn't even aware of the interceptor.



This is sad.

http://**********************/strate...tml#post139824

The heat I was referring to was just the skin temperature at Mach 2.8. At sea level the air is denser and will exaggerate the heating effect; temperatures are expected to be approximately 1,000°F or 537.8°C. This is well within the capability of passive IR 'heat seeking' missiles Mid-wavelength infrared (MWIR) sensors.

Develpro you copy cat, you cheating others work, we will not believe what you are saying. Darky Is more knowledgeable

[DARKY]

http://**********************/strate...tml#post139824

The heat I was referring to was just the skin temperature at Mach 2.8. At sea level the air is denser and will exaggerate the heating effect; temperatures are expected to be approximately 1,000°F or 537.8°C. This is well within the capability of passive IR 'heat seeking' missiles Mid-wavelength infrared (MWIR) sensors.

Comparing a big plane like SR-71 black bird and a small missile like brahmos is silly.... since the former having large size would've more drag as compared to brahmos.... hence a lot higher temperature...

http://www.sr-71.org/blackbird/sr-71/

SR-71 is almost 33m long with a large wing area of 170 m2 plus huge air frame while brahmos is about 8m without any large wings.

even on that note brahmos won't be around the sea level for more than 4-5 seconds... and off course during impact...

[DARKY]

Can Land version of BrahMos follows Lo-Lo-Lo trajectory or only Sea version can do the Lo-Hi-Lo and Lo-Lo-Lo

Land versions can perform more trajectories as compared to the sea versions read about block II and block III versions which are the land versions of the missile.

[notorious_eagle]

Your links still don't answer the question "How can your radar track a heat emitting body ??"
And No matter what damn efforts you put or freaking researches you do to copy and paste from other defense forms.... you still won't get the answer... hence its better to admit that your ridiculous claims about radars detecting a heat emitting body was a complete non-sense which you puked out of sheer patriotism, idiotism, fanboism.. and etc.. etc.. isms...

Okay Sir you win. Our AWACS cannot detect the super duper brahmos because its operated by Indian Armed Forces, it emits zero heat and has 0 RCS, it is invisible to all the radars in the world, heck its even invisible to human eyes except for those of the people whom are operating it. Since you are deflecting the question from the real issue and have engaged in trolling and fanboyism, i thought i might as well talk to you on your level. So i agree, Brahmos is the King of all missiles because its Indian.

You two are just making a laughing stock of yourselves here with No knowledge about the subject at all....

Dont worry about us being a laughing stock because you have done the job very well for yourself, infact you have made us look even more smarter. When you assume that an AWAC cannot detect the super duper brahmos, that just makes you look like a complete moron.

[DARKY]

Okay Sir you win. Our AWACS cannot detect the super duper brahmos because its operated by Indian Armed Forces, it emits zero heat and has 0 RCS, it is invisible to all the radars in the world, heck its even invisible to human eyes except for those of the people whom are operating it. Since you are deflecting the question from the real issue and have engaged in trolling and fanboyism, i thought i might as well talk to you on your level. So i agree, Brahmos is the King of all missiles because its Indian.



Dont worry about us being a laughing stock because you have done the job very well for yourself, infact you have made us look even more smarter. When you assume that an AWAC cannot detect the super duper brahmos, that just makes you look like a complete moron.

Again you are trying to put your words in my mouth answer straight "How does your radar detect a heat emmiting body ??" Thats all I am asking since you made the claim.

[LiberalAtheist]

^ what does BrahMos have to do with this?

[DARKY]

^ what does BrahMos have to do with this?

Did you even read what i wrote? Off course it flies at low altitude but what about the high IR signature, with high IR signature like that there is no way it can escape detection from an AWAC or a capable 3D radar.

For obvious reasons.... as one can see clearly.....

[deckingraj]

Develpro you copy cat, you cheating others work, we will not believe what you are saying. Darky Is more knowledgeable

If instead of posting such one liner's you explain to us one question that Darky has asked multiple times then don't you think it would be more useful???

"How does your radar detect a heat emmiting body ??"

It seems Notorious Eagle claimed that since brahmos has high IR signature its detection via radar's is cake walk.....

Fair point. I would say the early detection would have to rely on satellites or whatever mechanism detects BM launches. I would expect China has full coverage of India in that respect, so Pakistan just needs to tap into that.

Well you do agree there are few "I think" here...Anyhow lets assume what you are saying is correct...However i believe the original question was detection vs tracking....Can you throw some more light on that as well????

The BrahMos doesn't do sharp 90 degree turns; it does flattened S-curves. It has to; because of its high forward momentum. So the speed that needs to be matched is not its forward speed, but the speed of lateral manoevers. That will be much less than the forward mach 3.

but do you agree that interceptor needs to be faster then the speed of Brahmos(whatever it is at that moment)??? I believe there was some disagreement in that aspect...

Secondly, whatever manoevers it is doing are preprogrammed. They are not evasive manoeuvers to match any intgerceptor since the heat seeking interceptor is fully passive. The BrahMos isn't even aware of the interceptor.

I believe you are right here...However that's where cruise missile scores over a typical BM. Calculating a BM path and trajectory is quite easy as compared to Cruise Missile...that is why speed gives a new dimension to CM.....If you can manage a CM which is supersonic and can maneuver (obviously not as much as subsonic one) then it do become a deadly combo...Don't u agree????

[Jungibaaz]

Brahmos is very much detectable by radar.
what is your debate against this DARKY?

I've had many folks argue that it's too quick for radar and is far too fast to be intercepted, which is just untrue, and some times some talk about the plume created at the speeds, little do they know to match it up with X-Band.

[nabil_05]

Topic has drifted from ABM to Brahmos which is becoming more of a norm by some members. What Brahmos has to do with ABM? Also, the fact that ABM by nature is a defensive system so it is the ABM user (India this case) who will have to defend from Pak missiles, not the other way around.

---------- Post added at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 PM ----------

Brahmos is very much detectable by radar.
what is your debate against this DARKY?

I've had many folks argue that it's too quick for radar and is far too fast to be intercepted, which is just untrue, and some times some talk about the plume created at the speeds, little do they know to match it up with X-Band.

Adding to your point, even those who are advocating Brahmos all the time as if it is some sort of a divine weapon that cannot be detected by a radar (very false indeed) know they are making a mountain out of a mole.

[Agnostic_Indian]

then somebody please answer the post # 382.

[nabil_05]

Again you are trying to put your words in my mouth answer straight "How does your radar detect a heat emmiting body ??" Thats all I am asking since you made the claim.

So as per you, a radar is the only sensor used for detection purpose? Do you know what an integrated combat data system is and how many sensors, electronic equipment can a modern battle ship handle? Remove the notion of Brahmos being superior to any detection because in real combat scenario, fantasies do not stand firm.

[nabil_05]

a bit more info can be found here...

http://www.marshall.org/pdf/materials/522.pdf

[Developereo]

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Comparing a big plane like SR-71 black bird and a small missile like brahmos is silly.... since the former having large size would've more drag as compared to brahmos.... hence a lot higher temperature...

No, the temperature will be the same whether its a missile or a plane. The plane will emit a bigger heat signature because of its size, but the heat intensity does not depend on size.

even on that note brahmos won't be around the sea level for more than 4-5 seconds... and off course during impact...

But I thought the BrahMos was 'invisible' because it merges in with 'ground clutter'. Where is the ground clutter at 37000 feet?

Unless the BrahMos takes scenic route along the Himalayas and K2 before coming down into Pakistan's heartland...

Well you do agree there are few "I think" here...Anyhow lets assume what you are saying is correct...However i believe the original question was detection vs tracking....Can you throw some more light on that as well????

The "I think" are reasonable. It's reasonable to assume that China is covering Indian launches and it's reasonable to assume that Pakistan can come to some arrangement about accessing that data.

Once you can detect, tracking is easy. There are not too many things that are so hot and that move at mach 3.

but do you agree that interceptor needs to be faster then the speed of Brahmos(whatever it is at that moment)??? I believe there was some disagreement in that aspect...

No, that was my whole point. The interceptor is not coming from behind and catching up; it is approaching from the front or side. I gave the trivial example of a brick wall which just needs to be there at 0 mph.

People are confusing BrahMos forward speed of mach 3 with its lateral evasive speed which will be much less than mach 3. The BrahMos can only make wide turns precisely because it has so much forward momentum.

I believe you are right here...However that's where cruise missile scores over a typical BM. Calculating a BM path and trajectory is quite easy as compared to Cruise Missile...that is why speed gives a new dimension to CM.....If you can manage a CM which is supersonic and can maneuver (obviously not as much as subsonic one) then it do become a deadly combo...Don't u agree????

That's where the example of MetalStorm came in. Heat seeking missiles are one type of interceptor; the other is a million round/minute which will effectively create a metal wall in front of the missile Of course the body of the BrahMos will get through because of its momentum, but only in shreds, not intact.