Osama Dead. Obama Confirms.

[hembo]

---

---

T-Faz.. i am really amazed at how freely and bluntly you question the integrity of PA, ISI and other intelligence agencies..

I think they are taking the right direction.. its a case of someone shouting at bigger loud speaker..

However, the questions are (which are supposed to be asked)

Why is the US account of operation changes every hour? Why are they not showing "gruesome" pictures of OBL when the other 3 are already everywhere and they are gruesome on the same level, if not more? Why are you so ashamed to ask these questions to US when their own media along with International media is asking these questions?

As far as you questions are concerned.. lets calmly analyse, shall we? (i'm a systems analyst by profession, thats the reason its difficult for me to digest)

1. It is a lie that PA was not aware of them coming in and going out.. the only mistake which PA made was to "allow" them to come in.. PA was not aware that the "hidden agenda" is to frame the integrity of Pakistan.. It is a lapse from planners and "counter" planners.. US here is one up.. PA never expected that they are going to claim that "they killed OBL" just because OBL was not there..

2. As i said, OBL was not there, yeah might be his family, but he was not there.. and as far his family is concerned, his brothers, sisters and elders sons have been living in western countries on and off.. so that also doesn't prove anything...

3. They were not suppose to stop that "incursion" just because it was NOT an incursion..

4. Agreed.. but i would say.. thats not army's fault.. Govt. needs to increase the income and internal security.. thats not army's responsibility

5. Based on what i said above.. this is what the whole world wants.. but is not in favor of Pakistan..

Hope you'll stop.. analyse.. examine.. and then judge..

System analyst, did you say? Does speculation to the highest order is part of the job? OMG, I'm kinda speechless by the level of denial amongst the highly educated ones. What's your take on the official statements that are coming out of Pakistan? What's your take on the people mourning Osama's death on Pakistan's street? What's your take on those lawers presenting Mumtaz Qadri with garlands? Is that how you think Pakistan will prosper or you agree that Pakistan needs to do things differently in order to rise from the ruins? Since you are in UK, do you even realize what kind of ruins we are taking about?

What's wrong with the stands being taken by the likes of T-Faz & others. It is time to revamp a lot of things in Pakistan including the absolute power (read God like) that the PA & ISI enjoys. But, most importantly, it is more then high time to try (I say try) to eradicate the religious radicalism from the heart and mind of the Pakistanis.

P.S.: To all posters, Please don't bring in Indias poor and toilets and cow **** here. We know we have lot of deficiency ourselves and there is lots of room to improve ourselves too. But that's some discussion for some other threads, not this.

[unicorn]

No Sir.

I am merely stating facts. Whether PAF or PA or PN decides to put up any resistance, or not, is an operational decision by them. Just be aware of the consequences, that's all I am saying.

If needed and so decided, there will be more raids like this, yes.

---------- Post added at 11:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:30 AM ----------



No Sir.

I am merely stating facts. Whether PAF or PA or PN decides to put up any resistance, or not, is an operational decision by them. Just be aware of the consequences, that's all I am saying.

If needed and so decided, there will be more raids like this, yes.

What consequences are you talking about? we are already facing many consequences and if we do not act we will be pounded like the rest.
And If I just agree for a moment from your perspective that we want to look at the BIG FACTS than what if supposedly India
acts tomorrow the same way tomorrow than aren't we obliged to act as we know that India is thrice the size in number as ours but I guess you will still be looking at the BIG FACTS than huh don't you?.I suggest in this situation to have mindset of aggression rather than submission.Forget about the facts and lets jump to act.

---------- Post added at 08:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 PM ----------

No Sir.

I am merely stating facts. Whether PAF or PA or PN decides to put up any resistance, or not, is an operational decision by them. Just be aware of the consequences, that's all I am saying.

If needed and so decided, there will be more raids like this, yes.

---------- Post added at 11:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:30 AM ----------



No Sir.

I am merely stating facts. Whether PAF or PA or PN decides to put up any resistance, or not, is an operational decision by them. Just be aware of the consequences, that's all I am saying.

If needed and so decided, there will be more raids like this, yes.

What consequences are you talking about? we are already facing many consequences and if we do not act we will be pounded like the rest.
And If I just agree for a moment from your perspective that we want to look at the BIG FACTS than what if supposedly India
acts tomorrow the same way tomorrow than aren't we obliged to act as we know that India is thrice the size in number as ours but I guess you will still be looking at the BIG FACTS than huh don't you?.I suggest in this situation to have mindset of aggression rather than submission.Forget about the facts and lets jump to act.

[TheStrantrunCurve]

Any such confrontation could have been very nasty.

Oh Afghani, take care of your 7th century county, you people have been dreaming for this day ever since britain created your miserable pathetic country which has acted as a cancer to pakistan ever since 1947.

One of the helicopter did go down why was there no massive attack, pakistan still supports haqqani network, quetta shurra who control 80% afghanistan why do the mighty america dont attack pakistan.

You people should get ready to come uinder taliban again.

[hembo]

Those that throw around the term Afghanistan occupation. Are generally those that actually supported the Taliban during their reign of terror against the Afghan people. They are people who talk about how good the Afghan Taliban are. Yet would refuse to live under the same barbaric rules and laws if they were imposed on them

Talk about hypocracy.. ehh..

[Madmen]

If they flew from Tarbela like a few articles I have read suggest then PA must have been alerted. If you were planning a mission like this would you have risked PAF intercepting or engaging the helicopters. So many things can go wrong in a mission like this why add to the risk of failure unless of course you were 100% sure you wont be detected. I think no matter if they knew or not it is an embarrassment for Pakistan. One or more persons need to be held responsible for this incident. Heads should roll for this as the saying goes.

[Kingumar]

Or the ISI and the US intelligence came into negations NOT to put Pakistanis involvement in spotlight to protect Pakistanis national security and the country from further bombings and killings. as Pakistan is more vulnerable then the U.S
Considering that the U.S is still willing to stay in relations with Pakistan, im sure there is more to Pakistan's involvement.

Just an opinion

---------- Post added at 03:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:51 PM ----------

Or the ISI and the US intelligence came into negations NOT to put Pakistanis involvement in spotlight to protect Pakistanis national security and the country from further bombings and killings. as Pakistan is more vulnerable then the U.S
Considering that the U.S is still willing to stay in relations with Pakistan, im sure there is more to Pakistan's involvement.
so pretty much we are being deceived from both ends!

Just an opinion

[AstanoshKhan]

They surely made a PS of Obama as well but released Osama's one instead.

[unicorn]

Apart from sugar coating it as a joint operation, USA aint gonna give any other option to you imo

Those who are sugar coating are only giving them selves hope.This is no joint operation.Pakistan will never give or allow US to make a bogus event like this.Unfortunately they get away with it.

[toxic_pus]

What you are suggesting that we should act in the total submission whenever they do a raid like this in the future.

You should act in a manner where an embarrassing situation of acting in seemingly 'total submission' doesn't even arise.

Its as simple as that, my friend.

[khurasaan1]

Hi, I would have to agree with Mr. MK. The incompetence of the PA & PAF is being played in the media. This is what the common man sees and understands.

The average person, does not understand stealth, Nap of the Earth flight, radar jamming, etc. All they will see is that it is very easy to fly deep into Pakistan undetected, rip a place up completely undeterred for 40 minutes, and then fly back unscathed.

Moreover, what has the media been showing from Pakistan. Funerals for OBL by mullahs in Pakistan. It is these inbred people who have caused all these problems for Pakistan in the first place.

The credibility of the Pakistani Armed Forces is at stake, and unfortunately it will give our neighbors ideas. The Afghani defense minister was questioning the security of Pakistan's nukes (no, not a typo, the Afghani!). Also the IAF air chief also publicly stated that such a raid could be carried out by India.

Thats what happens when u trust ure equipments....The Army was sleeping...their night guard pplz were sleeping....they just wanna get pay checks and thats all ..who cares about Islam and the sacrificing for Islam....or even country ....there were so many civilians were wide awoke the same time ..these helicopterz came to the spot by exact 12:25 am.... seen the helicopterz hovering around ...the pplz thought PA & US Army is doing some operations against the Terrorists...thats why they didnt intervene cuz it was dark... otherwise they could have broke the hell outta them...cuz pplz dont like terrorists...here
This whole operation done by US is right ...they deserve congrats...cuz they took the risk for their lives....and they won...they didnt goto sleep and waited for their paychecks....
The media Mujahid was realli a coward and Kaghazi shear...and nothingelse...sleeping like the PA....he realli deserved what he got ...
Its warning for the PA and PAF ..dont sleep and just dont go in the Army for money or paychecks otherwise u will face the same what OBL got....

[Chogy]

I haven't posted in a while... I have a difficult time dealing with the wild conspiracies that inevitably evolve, especially with momentous news like this.

On penetration of Pakistani airspace I posted this on another forum, and I think it's applicable:

People have unrealistic expectations on AD (Air Defense) systems, such as radar, SAMs, and interceptors. Much of this is due to nationalistic propaganda that claims "Our airspace is sealed. Impenetrable. Guarded by the most advanced blah blah blah..." But the truth is simple. Airspace is impossible to deny to a determined force. I haven't any doubt that the helicopters could, and did, operate with impunity for a period of time. And the time is important. Done quickly, the possibility of a successful intercept or targeting are slim.

And yes, this applies as well to nations like China, Russia, and the U.S.

Low flying helicopters at night are extremely challenging targets for a fighter. The radar detection relies on a doppler return, and depending upon the airspeed, the return can be nil. The target is lost in ground clutter. The forward-moving blades do not provide an adequate signal. The helicopters can appear like rocks or cars.

Ground-based SAM systems - the window to detect and target can be fleeting. And when detected, there will be much doubt. If you are a young officer commanding a SAM battery, are you going to make the decision to fire on that target? You've got 30 seconds. Is it a Pakistani Chinook full of your guys? And the target is now gone. You shrug you shoulders, maybe phone the contact in, and go about your business.

And now we have the news that a stealthy chopper was used.

Disposal of the body - the U.S. is in a no-win situation.

Keep the corpse, display it, allow everyone (including Muslim doctors) to inspect it...

"The U.S. is insulting Islam! They are abusing the body! He must be buried within 24 hours facing Mecca."

Dispose of the corpse by burial at sea...

"The whole thing was faked! Where's the proof? OBL is living in a suburb of Washington!"

Display gruesome death photos...

"They are mocking him! This is disrespectful!"

and of course, inevitably...

"It's a PHOTOSHOP!!"

I haven't the slightest doubt that they saved enough DNA for 1,000 tests. And there will be archived photos that may be conveniently leaked at some point, but apparently later rather than sooner.

On the hard questions for Pakistan: There will be a lot of noise for a period of time. The American perspective is that there are too may people in Pakistan sympathetic to OBL, which is why the op was not a joint effort. Evidence for this comes from the many rallies where US flags are burned and prayers said for this criminal.

But eventually cooperation will continue... there's too much to lose otherwise.

Is it a drama? A conspiracy? No. If OBL has been dead for years, his death would have been announced by Bush. If he is still alive, all it would take would be one videotape of him to make America look astoundingly foolish.

There is so much more to comment on, but this is already too long. I'm just glad he's dead.

[Laughing_soldier]

We had to blow the helicopter, and that probably woke up a lot of people, including the Pakistanis - CIA director Panetta

Forbes

---------- Post added at 09:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 AM ----------

We had to blow the helicopter, and that probably woke up a lot of people, including the Pakistanis - CIA director Panetta

Forbes

[Ahmad]

Oh Afghani, take care of your 7th century county, you people have been dreaming for this day ever since britain created your miserable pathetic country which has acted as a cancer to pakistan ever since 1947.

One of the helicopter did go down why was there no massive attack, pakistan still supports haqqani network, quetta shurra who control 80% afghanistan why do the mighty america dont attack pakistan.

You people should get ready to come uinder taliban again.

Come back with your original username and the right flag, then i will respond to your childish post.

[deckingraj]

People might be surprised because it is coming here from a perceived enemy however this is like a worst nightmare....You are doomed if you do something, you are doomed if you don't....Yes it is correct that one cannot mess with Super-power but one cannot let them have a free run.....I feel bad for Pakistani's....It leads to a feeling of disgust....I wish Pakistan can stand up against so called "unauthorized-unilateral" operations...

Being in US i could feel how proud an ordinary American was when they got to know about this operation...Their govt. got the revenge by doing what many feel was a very gutsy decision...Though i was also happy because the worlds most wanted terrorist is now in hell yet there was a feeling which was letting me down...I was wondering how about my country response to act of terrorism on her netizens..when we will stand up against those(No - I am not referring to attack on Pak but in general)??? On the similar token i could feel how disgusted an ordinary Pakistani would be feeling...

[hembo]

---

---

I also think that Pakistan now must test ICBM more than 8000 KM range to show US that next time they are not beyond the range of Pakistan.

People, Can you believe this!!!