Documentary on Pakistan and Taliban by ABC

[SurvivoR]

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First of all. i live in Peshawar!! and there have already been 2 Rocket attacks near Sher Khan Shaheed Stadium where i live close to.. Your answer seems like you have sever Anti-western sentiments.. which is fine!! The Taliban have taken over alot of small villages near Peshawar like Shabkadar where some of my cousins live who can't really go out after 9pm. So don't tell me the Pakistan Army succeeded.

Misleading claims. No village arround or in subrub of Peshawar has been taken by Taliban.

Shabqadar is a disputed area; half of which comes under Mohamand Agency and the half is part of Charsadda district.

It has boundry with Mohamand Agency so obviously the security situation had an affect of the area.

Shabqadar has always been a den of criminals so do not tell me that you found something new about it.

Rocket firing near Sher Khan Stadium more known as Army Stadium is not something new as well.

Because the area borders Chamkani area which is again almost a tribal or den of criminals and groups famouse for rocket attacks.

Regarding success of Army indeed it can be debated.

They are not trained to fight mountain insurgencies. They also can not use blind bombardment.

[Durran3]

Normally i just read post and not reply to the posts. But somehow i thought i should give my opinion regarding this. The first problem is that we all think that we r clever to others; we all think that the opinion we have for regarding the pakistan army or the taliban is right and other people opinion is wrong. And we must admit one thing that none of us here have got tolerance. By saying that let the americans come in and flush out taliban is a stupid thing but also we must admit that the taliban have grown stronger day by day only because of the government and because of the pakistani Army. because of the army those people who r civilians and got nothing to do with taliban have started taliban now. one example for that is the use of radio station by maulana fazlullah in swat. according to them they have got no technology to jam it, but in reality we all know it if they have it or not( again 10 people will quote this sentence and call me unpatriotic only because i said this for the army ). The best judge of this whole situation is those people who are actually living in those areas rather than us people who live in america canada uk islamabad karachi or lahore. And now i talk about the most important thing which is that taliban did not come to pakistan after this so called war on terror. they have been living here for decades. No one had any problem with them and they had no problem with us. Taliiban are also from pakistan. This is not army's job to fight against them. The reality about us is that we have a very big cultural problem. a pathan will always have a soft corner against taliban but those from punjab and sindh side will hate them and specially those from shia sect ( again a lot of people will call me racist or unpatriotic or etc etc but this is the reality we should face it rather than run away from it ). So at the end i would like to advice you guys that honestly speaking pakistan is going in the wrong direction and the most unpatriotic person is the one who say that it is a great country and everything is fine. it is not a great country if it was than no one would be wanting to go to america or canada or UK. So instead of fighting and arguing over little things why dont u all do some soul searching and think that WHAT HAVE YOU DONE SO FAR IN YOUR LIFE WHICH MAKES U A TRUE PAKISTANI? i hope 99% have done nothing except for going on to forums and saying long live pakistan army etc etc. So lets make this country a great country by doing something for it. a country only becomes great when the nation becomes great. Thanks

Great post Acid wolf..

you truly have taken the words from my mouth as well much respect..

Though i don't personally agree with Americans coming to Pakistan and disrespecting Pakistan's sovereignty.. The situation on the ground is very hard to comprehend and as it stands.. there really is no clear solution.

The Real Patriots are those that criticize and try to make it a better place to live and criticism is the fundamental principle that drives a nation forward philosophically speaking. There is something fundamentally wrong with Pakistan's Culture especially the Pakhtoon culture.. which needs to change drastically. I've lived in Peshawar for almost 22 years and i can tell you that its one of the most ultra-conservative places that simply refuses to change.

The Worst ones being the villages and the FATA areas. You can blame India or the US or Israel else childishly as much as you want.. but the fact is there is something fundamentally wrong with our culture that needs a revamp need to take Responsibility.

Blaming the West all the time is very immature..

Change with the flow of time.. but Stand up like a mountain for your principles is what i believe in. Apparently some Ultra- Right wing nationalists immediately label you as (non Pakistani for expressing a view thats different than theirs)...

[S-2]

"BUT, at the same time, I know that we must solve our own problems..."

Certainly reads real nice. After all, I keep being told that FATA is part of your nation. Now personally, I don't believe it. Someday your people and army may find the determination to reclaim what was once yours. Not for the present it seems, though.

Evidently you're too broke and morally divided on the need to do so. Many Pakistanis would prefer that these enemies of your nation actually STAY. Imagine that?!!

Still, so many inside your nation, it's army, and even your government feel the compelling need for "strategic depth" and retain the conviction that Afghanistan is YOUR backyard and it's Pashtus your minions. Given that appears to be the case I really shouldn't be surprised.

This is wrong. You cannot harbor an insurgency by a foreign army from within your borders. This Pakistan has done to the point of aiding and abetting. Only as you've experienced blowback has your nation began the badly needed discussion of it's national character.

"...and that the barbaric US, which is responsible for this whole mess in the first place, will only cause more problems."

Nice try. Actually, you owe yourselves to blame. It is your nation is it not? How is it that the mighty Pakistani army allowed the invasion of FATA by the defeated taliban army of Afghanistan in late 2001 and early 2002? Is that not the purpose of any army but to secure all borders at a time of crisis? If so, then how did these men enter and how is it that they've been able to make war upon the people of Afghanistan and the forty one nations of ISAF performing the U.N. mandate?

"barbaric" indeed. Modern nations don't permit their soil to be desecrated in such a manner.

"Pakistanis must work together to fight these Taliban scumbags!

PAKISTAN ZINDABAD!

We can do it! Insha Allah!"

I see that you intend upon making your mark as a jingoistic cheerleader. Let me suggest you leave the lord out of this and focus upon what your national obligations might be.

The next time you suggest "barbaric" in connection with my nation, you'd best prepare yourself for a litany of charges about Pakistan that'll spin your head. Hold your tongue, read more, write less and speak of only what you know-which appears to be very little.

Welcome.

[Patriot]

Army should hire some propaganda PR guys who can remove Taliban public support and then Army can act with full force and NEVER EVER allow US forces to enter Pakistan.They rape foriegn country people and treat them so badly (Drunk Soldiers- MastanKhan made a very good post about thi..)..Hell even after 8 years Taliban are still controlling most of the Afghanistan.Although i have no doubt in my mind that it is impossible to remove Taliban without nuking them (Which will not happen) Nato will return just like Soviets..Remember the original enemy was Alqaida not the Talibans.

[S-2]

"...US forces to enter Pakistan.They rape foriegn country people and treat them so badly (Drunk Soldiers- MastanKhan made a very good post about thi..).."

Drunk soldiers in the middle east? I highly doubt it. We've a general order against alcohol and we enforce it rigorously.

These claims of rape are wrong and you're wrong to believe them. Have U.S. Army and Marines raped? Yes but we're hardly done so in any unusual proportions.

America has been deploying soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines overseas in huge numbers since 1945. There's no evidence that we rape as a matter of coercement policy. Beyond that, prove that soldiers of the U.S. military rape disproportionate to nat'l age-group averages or in comparison to the allegations made upon other nations.

We've not been perfect but we take seriously the charges and our responsibilities. If you really believe these charges then you'll need some serious statistical evidence to support it as we've a long, long history of foreign deployments with millions of men over the intervening years.

Finally, saadahmed, is your army lily-pure on this matter? There are many who'd suggest otherwise. We know that many armies have over-indulged their deployments to Africa. We know of the suffering of balouch peoples at the hands of certain armies.

I'd be real careful about embracing some casually-offered "rape" narrative if living in a glass house which harbors it's own dark legacy on this matter.

[Patriot]

Why do you always have to bring Pakistan Army into this discussion?Did i ever say Pakistan Army Soldiers are saints???What does my Army have to do with the fact that American soldiers like to rape foreigners in war zone and please Steve Trust me Pakistani Army will not rape Pakistanis like US Army.You know very well that Pakistan Army consists of Balchis, Punjabi as well as Pashtuns. (Including Top Generals) So it's not like Pakistani Soldiers will just start raping Balcuis or Pashtuns.(Yes, some soldiers may commit crime but not all are rapists)
..and i have seen several US Movies/documentaries regarding Vietnam and they clearly showed how US army raped people (These documentaries and movies were made by US Media not Pakistan's or Soviet Media) but obviously the TOP US Generals kept covered most the incidents.....Just forget for a second that you are American.Don't think you think Pakistan Army will treat Pakistanis better then US Army?

[DarkStar]

"...US forces to enter Pakistan.They rape foriegn country people and treat them so badly (Drunk Soldiers- MastanKhan made a very good post about thi..).."

Drunk soldiers in the middle east? I highly doubt it. We've a general order against alcohol and we enforce it rigorously.

These claims of rape are wrong and you're wrong to believe them. Have U.S. Army and Marines raped? Yes but we're hardly done so in any unusual proportions.

America has been deploying soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines overseas in huge numbers since 1945. There's no evidence that we rape as a matter of coercement policy. Beyond that, prove that soldiers of the U.S. military rape disproportionate to nat'l age-group averages or in comparison to the allegations made upon other nations.

We've not been perfect but we take seriously the charges and our responsibilities. If you really believe these charges then you'll need some serious statistical evidence to support it as we've a long, long history of foreign deployments with millions of men over the intervening years.

Finally, saadahmed, is your army lily-pure on this matter? There are many who'd suggest otherwise. We know that many armies have over-indulged their deployments to Africa. We know of the suffering of balouch peoples at the hands of certain armies.

I'd be real careful about embracing some casually-offered "rape" narrative if living in a glass house which harbors it's own dark legacy on this matter.

You don't need to rape when you can get the locals to prostitute themselves. It's not like we are not aware of what happened in the Phillipines, Thailand, Vietnam.

[S-2]

We don't encourage rape. We don't condone rape. We rigorously prosecute rape. We've no policy of rape as a political weapon. Our cultural legacy doesn't endorse rape.

We've deployed hundreds of thousands of soldiers world-wide since 1945-more likely millions. There's no indication that rapes among our soldiers exceed age-group averages nor that any culture of rape exists within our armed forces.

Mastan Khan hasn't served in my armed forces nor you. You know nothing of what you speak and simply repeat fondly-regarded innuendo. Rape makes the lives of our soldiers very hard in any country, much less a war-zone. Many of these men are deployed overseas with their families. None wish to leave their kasernes and believe they leave their wives and children behind to such. None wish to face the wrath of enraged local communities.

That doesn't mean it can be stopped. There's one in every crowd. It also doesn't mean that it's tolerated. It's not tolerated by our courts, our commanders nor our troops.

[S-2]

"It's not like we are not aware of what happened in the Phillipines, Thailand, Vietnam."

Do tell. What did happen? Are you suggesting that there was no legacy of prostitution or sex prior to America's arrival in any of these nations?

If so, are you suggesting that money was the motive?

If so, can you explain the immense popularity of sex tours to these locales from places throughout Asia and the middle east? Do you suggest, further, that muslim men have not frequented these locations?

Finally, why focus solely on Asia? Are you attempting to draw some lurid picture of the sexual depravity of your "brown brothers" at the hands of the racist exploiters- America?

Do you forget Asia's own legacy of concubines? Do you forget Japan's particular legacy? How about the former colonialists-French, Dutch, and British?

Strawman argument and undeservedly snide.

[DarkStar]

The sex industry in these countries was largely a creation of GI's spendind their money, sowing their oats. Just like the major sea ports of the world have traditionally had a busy shipper's quarter bursting with prostitutes, to cater for lonely sea men.

Of course, now the phenomenon has taken up a life of its own, with sex tourism to child exploitation rampant. People from all over the world are partaking of these sordid delights, of all religious affiliations and none. But the major part of the blame must be proportioned to the first 'corrupter'.

Are you not aware that American bases in East Asia have been the subject of public protests because of the rape of local teenage girls?

[Durran3]

Why do you always have to bring Pakistan Army into this discussion?Did i ever say Pakistan Army Soldiers are saints???What does my Army have to do with the fact that American soldiers like to rape foreigners in war zone and please Steve Trust me Pakistani Army will not rape Pakistanis like US Army.You know very well that Pakistan Army consists of Balchis, Punjabi as well as Pashtuns. (Including Top Generals) So it's not like Pakistani Soldiers will just start raping Balcuis or Pashtuns.(Yes, some soldiers may commit crime but not all are rapists)
..and i have seen several US Movies/documentaries regarding Vietnam and they clearly showed how US army raped people (These documentaries and movies were made by US Media not Pakistan's or Soviet Media) but obviously the TOP US Generals kept covered most the incidents.....Just forget for a second that you are American.Don't think you think Pakistan Army will treat Pakistanis better then US Army?

Thats a very irrational way of putting things. When you have Thousands if not millions of troops all over the world chances are a handful of them will act stupidely and get involved in some rape cases but that is not reflective of the American Armies code of Conduct. The way you put it is no different than saying that all "Muslims are terrorists" when you and I both know its not true.

Pakistanis must work together to fight these Taliban scumbags!

I completely agree with you... but easy said than done. FATA isn't even a part of Pakistan and they don't WANT to be a part of Pakistan. They don't pay electricity bills and we have to pay for their consumption. They won't allow the Government to build Schools and kick out the Paksitani officials who want accountability. Its a haven for breeding terrorism and its all happenieng under your nose and if the Government won't support FATA than they further retaliate which is very hypocritical on their part. They are the biggest creators of Weapons and weapon smuggling in the country... and its all happening without any checks and balances because our army or government officials CAN'T go there and tell those people want they need to do.

Why should the Pakistani's support people who don't even consider themselves to be a Part of Pakistan let alone want to be a part of Pakistan .. Why should the people's tax money go into funding those who don't even pay taxes in the first place? Just because they are Muslim?

People seriously need to put religion behind for a second and start thinking about your COUNTRY FIRST...

Now the real question is how are you going to deal with FATA...Force them to become a part of Pakistan legally?

[S-2]

"Are you not aware that American bases in East Asia have been the subject of public protests because of the rape of local teenage girls?"

Of course I am. Do you presume that my government and military are unconcerned? Do you believe that we don't deeply regret this criminal behavior where it occurs? Do you suggest that we don't prosecute these accused nor punish those convicted? Do you argue that our laws are inadequate to do so or that our institutions are unprepared to act upon them?

If not, then you'll understand that we are hardly the first nor the worst, and that includes in Thailand, Phillipines or S. Korea. You act ignorant of Japan's institutional crimes of rape in S. Korea and elsewhere- to include Okinawa. Why? You ignore the French legacy of colonialism in indochine and it's own perverse cultural twists. Why? You ignore Siam's own national fascination with sex that far exceeds the origins of the United States. Why? You ignore Europe's own fascinations offered to our soldiers and only point to your impoverished Asian brothers though connecting us with some sin of economic and sexual enslavement.

Finally, I had to laugh that you've decided that the sex tours so popular among men in your part of the world is a legacy of our soldiers. If so thirty-seven years after we left southeast asia then, clearly, we helped identify one of the more enduring industries to date.

Our soldiers are no saints. Then again, most soldiers aren't. Comes with the age, job requirements, testosterone, and weapons. On the whole, I'm very satisfied with their sense of discipline and duty when deployed. More so now, frankly, than ever-especially in muslim nations.

So here my question...WHAT'S YOUR POINT?

The reason for which I ask is that I'm trying to understand why you feel cause to single out my nation, particularly in light of your own cultural legacy of rape in Pakistan, it's inconsistant judicial remedy, and your military's own sorely-tainted past. I sure wouldn't.

We also know that the militants, both in Pakistan and Iraq/Afghanistan have used rape in a variety of circumstances as a political weapon. There are allegations now of an Iraqi woman, 51, who orchestrated the rapes of over 80 Iraqi women to sufficiently shame them into suicide bombings.

Consider it.

Has your nation and military suddenly emerged quietly into a new perspective of which I'm unaware? Most women's rights groups might disagree, if so. So, rhetorically, I'm at a loss to understand the purpose for this thread hijacking.

Can you help me better understand so that I might be fully and suitably forearmed for a real wing-dinger argument about war crimes and rapes and murders, blah, blah, blah...?

Thanks.

[RedBaron]

Durran3, thank you for the post. Along with the Al-Jazeera one by Rageh Omar (Pakistan's War), this film ranks up there with the best. The thread deserves Stickie status..

It's remarkable to see the courage of the Pakhtoon journos who live and work in that cauldron. Also, the brave young girl is probably the same one who writes a blog for the BBC Urdu Online service, a translation of which appears on the English site as well. BBC NEWS | South Asia | Diary of a Pakistani schoolgirl (vi)
The stark fear as clearly seen on the face of the shopkeeper in Mingora was obviously real.

The segment on Karachi was definitely an eye-opener for me...growing up in Mumbai, we were always curious about Karachi. In many ways, it was Mumbai's sister-city across the border due to its cosmopolitan and progressive outlook; both cities were vibrant as they're the respective commercial capitals. I was not the only one dismayed that the Mumbai attackers left from Karachi. But after watching the film and hearing the Karachi Police Intel chief talking about the links between LeT, Taliban and other groups, its obvious that Karachi is no longer immune to the terror plague that's ravaging Pakistan today.

Thanks also to AcidWolf for some telling comments on the social divide...

[haroon89]

can u please tell me where i can download this documentary from. Thankyou
Haroon

[S-2]

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Go to page 1 of this thread and the very first post. Double-click "Four Corners-Pakistan On The Brink".

That'll take you to the article and from there you can download as you see fit or just watch there.