FACTBOX - Challenges of mountain warfare in Pakistan

[Xeric]

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FACTBOX - Challenges of mountain warfare in Pakistan | South Asia | Reuters

FACTBOX - Challenges of mountain warfare in Pakistan

REUTERS - Pakistan's army, under U.S. pressure to enter the militant bastion of North Waziristan, says it will do so but in its own time and when adequate resources are available.

At a conference in Jordan on special operations forces, Major General Farrukh Bashir, commander of the Pakistani military's Special Services Group, gave a presentation on mountain warfare outlining the obstacles to fighting in the Hindu Kush, Karakoram and Himalayan mountain ranges along Pakistan's borders.

Following is a selection of the challenges, according to Bashir:

* Artillery fire is less effective because of the contours of the land

* Attack options are predictable

* Use of helicopters gives away your intentions

* Land mines are not effective because they are displaced by earth tremors or melting snow

* Delays in evacuation of casualties

* Defensive positions can be swept away by avalanches

* Resupply and reinforcement in the heat of battle are extremely difficult

* Difficult to achieve surprise.

* Close-quarter battle is required

* Re-stocking is done by mules

* Troops' acclimatisation is very important, as is physical fitness and endurance

* Illness caused by altitude sicknesses

* Maps and aerial images tend to be deceptive

* Distance is measured in time, not in space, due to the terrain

* An invisible and faceless enemy. People met without incident in daytime may "take up arms and attack" at night

* Night landing by helicopters is very difficult in forested mountains or at high altitude

*Vehicle mobility restricted to roads

* Large numbers of troops required to hold cleared areas.

* Operations require intensive focus on logistics.

(Reporting by William Maclean, editing by Mark Heinrich)

[TaimiKhan]

One of the reason why NLI units are being extensively used in the current operations in the tribal region, as they have proved to be worthy assets in fighting in the mountains due to their long service in the mountain regions and having considerable experience.

[Xeric]

Let me add a few more from my side:

-Restricted use of mobile elements.

-Availability of numerous ambush and raid sites provide opportunities and at the same time (dangerously) exposes both the belligerents.

-Offer difficulties to the attacker but then difficult terrain also offers the attacker the opportunity to exploit unexpected/most difficult direction or approach to attack, thus enabling the attacker to achieve total surprise.

[Creder]

my 2 cents, the taliban must have fortified positions up top..that makes them an easy target for the fighters but the chances of a successful strike are reduced since terrain can be very deceptive from above..also that position gives the talibs the oppurtunity to unleash heavy fire from above

[Donatello]

my 2 cents, the taliban must have fortified positions up top..that makes them an easy target for the fighters but the chances of a successful strike are reduced since terrain can be very deceptive from above..also that position gives the talibs the oppurtunity to unleash heavy fire from above

If the Taliban have positions on top, then it is very easy to take them out. Send in the Mirage III/V aircraft that can launch glide bombs, laser bombs at higher altitude and high speed. By the time Taliban know the plane is there, it is already gone. Plus the Taliban don't have much sophistication with regard to shooting down high speed fighters. Helicopters, is well another story, whether Cobra, Apache or Russian Mi(s).

That's why JF-17's first squadron is based in the North-West, to test their radar against the contours and High-Low-High missions.


Once the top positions are out you can send in rocket launchers to do massive large scale destruction, but only when there are no known civilians there. Cruise missiles can be used too, but they are too expensive to be used against taliban.

[Creder]

^ no there positions aren't exactly out in the open..they have dug up caves, the positions they have are heavely fortified by mother nature..even a direct hit, which will first be hard to get since the fighters will have to fly low to get lock on the sites, wont do much damage.

I think the military is assessing all of this and training the troops further for s successful mission, mountain warfare is no joke ..taliban have the advantage because they know these mountains pretty well..we dont..so the army will also have to revaluate the usefullnes of equipment and what not

and i think they are testing out all of this in these small skirmishes

[Creder]

i would like to hear some comments on this from sir muradk

[Muradk]

i would like to hear some comments on this from sir muradk

s

Both Guerrilla warfare and Mountain warfare are difficult these guys have been fighting sense puberty. They might not look all that sophisticated but the buggers have everything. Sorry to say that Pakistan and China have been supplying them for the last 25 years. Now when Army takes the fight to them they have the home field advantage. If PAK Army takes the fight to them they will loss good men and that is what is happening.
Only way to finish this is PAF. 2 Sqd which means 48 fighters 3 missions a day 3 days in all.
That is just a very simple assessment. All Army has to do is give good intel, SSGs can have laser D with them that is all PAF needs the right spot to hit. Bringing PAF means there will be civilian casualties and that is a price Pakistan has to pay.

[sonicboom]

s

Both Guerrilla warfare and Mountain warfare are difficult these guys have been fighting sense puberty. They might not look all that sophisticated but the buggers have everything. Sorry to say that Pakistan and China have been supplying them for the last 25 years. Now when Army takes the fight to them they have the home field advantage. If PAK Army takes the fight to them they will loss good men and that is what is happening.
Only way to finish this is PAF. 2 Sqd which means 48 fighters 3 missions a day 3 days in all.
That is just a very simple assessment. All Army has to do is give good intel, SSGs can have laser D with them that is all PAF needs the right spot to hit. Bringing PAF means there will be civilian casualties and that is a price Pakistan has to pay.

Let's then get the ball rolling....!

[Irfan Baloch]

If the Taliban have positions on top, then it is very easy to take them out. Send in the Mirage III/V aircraft that can launch glide bombs, laser bombs at higher altitude and high speed. By the time Taliban know the plane is there, it is already gone. Plus the Taliban don't have much sophistication with regard to shooting down high speed fighters. Helicopters, is well another story, whether Cobra, Apache or Russian Mi(s).

That's why JF-17's first squadron is based in the North-West, to test their radar against the contours and High-Low-High missions.


Once the top positions are out you can send in rocket launchers to do massive large scale destruction, but only when there are no known civilians there. Cruise missiles can be used too, but they are too expensive to be used against taliban.

any field commander will like to do what you are saying but ground reality is that Pakistan Army doesnt have US army resources where even a sargent can call in airstrike when he sees a bush moving far ahead.

committing air strikes is both impractical & costly / impossible affair when you got an unlimitted supply of people coming from rest of Pakistan & the world to join taliban/ Al Qaida for their goal of a Utopian Sunni empire (forgive me for bringining in Sect but thats what these guys are doing)

it is just not fisible to call in air strike for 5 or 10 taliban dug in on a mountain and by the time the airstike does come in they would have melted back

they would fight the war of attrition & wear out Pakistan Amry's resources. their logistical costs are negligible compared to what a regular army has to spend.
taliban will be mostly fighting a typical ambush/ sniper gorilla war

so Pak Army has to match that with special forces. find their terror dens and strike their nerve centres.

ground intellignce is important but almost impossible when they are beheading 2 to 3 people everyday suspected of spying for US or Pakistan Army.

the most important part will be

++ taking out their leadership
++cutting off their supply routes

this is going to be one long war. long live the defenders of Pakistan

Allah help us all to rid this evil

Amen

[fatman17]

this area has been a 'graveyard' for many armies - just ask the british - it is no wonder the PA top brass is making a 'detailed assessment' of ops in NWA before pushing troops in this 'blackhole' - arial warfare is the safest bet, but very expensive - does the PAF have adequate supply of 'precision munitions' for a sustained effort - is our ground intell 'sound enough' to pin-point militant locations and hideouts (which keep changing on a daily basis) for the PAF. the PA has had 'impressive' successes so far in ops against the militants and this shd not be taken as a 'sign of weakness' of the militants and that NWA will be a 'cake-walk' - on the contrary, all the hardened hard-core militants have fled to NWA for their 'last-stand' and they will fight to the death and in doing so, potentially bleed the PA units who are going to fight them. if the US pushes the army to go in to NWA without full operational prepardness, it will be the end of the improving US-Pakistan strategic relationship. then the US is more than wellcome to 'go-into' this 'black-hole' with its 21st century technological superiority and find-out for itself what the british have written in many books and the result of such operations.

[F86 Saber]

My question is, why can't we just ask uncle Sam to use their resources to help if they want PA to enter NWA? With the help of their satellites, drones and precision bombings they can clear the strategic spots and than PA ground troops can move in and clear the area. They can send one of their aircraft carriers and operate their bombers from there. I know it is a matter of pride for the army but the loss that they are bearing in terms of personal and equipment should weight more than just pride.

[Xeric]

Well at last we are talking tactics at PDF..

[Xeric]

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To add up to Sir fatman's and irfan's post;
guerrilla warfare+mountain warfare=perfect recipe for disaster!

Moreover, it takes alot of effort, time and resources to train a soldier, well let's say in firing (even to bring him to Standard-shot SS), but the skunk up there in the mountains have been with guns since his childhood and believe me, i have seen them running (read fleeing) in slippers during hot pursuits and guess what, the bad guy turns back while running for a sec, fires his weapons and bump, a soldier is down!! Such is the efficiency.

On the contrary, we took time to make the epic shift from conventional techniques to unconventional ones. Though i am confident that now (and since long now) we are well trained to suite this environment and can take the skunks down even at the place of their choosing, but still the unpredictable nature of this warfare has haunted armies in the past and would do so in the coming years.

You move to assault some place, the entire administrative echelon has to follow you thus providing the enemy with a lucrative and vulnerable target and also decelerating your speed to advance as you have to take your tail along, but opposingly the bad guys, live of the land, carry just themselves and nothing else, feed on the support provided by the locals, know the area just like the back of their hand and know where to find what, so they hit you when and where they like and then vanishes in the vastness to the area.

Scary...? Hell ya!

To be continued.....