On this fallacy of an Islamic State

[Scum]

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I wrote this article a few days back. Shared it around. Thought I should share it here too, even though I'm expecting fiercely negative feedback from this forum. Feel free to read it and hate it, Pakistanis. Indians/Bangladeshis/all other nationalities are welcome to give feedback as well.

"If this article offended any Pakistani, then open your window, look around, maybe take a walk and then tell me what's more offensive - this article being littered with profanity or our existence being marginalized."

Eternal Abhorrence: On this fallacy of an "Islamic State"

And try to understand what I'm saying and read carefully (try to avoid skimming through and then posting dimwitted opinions), instead of taking out your talwars.

If this is in the wrong board, feel free to move it to the appropriate one.

[third eye]

Was it necessary to be crass & gross in the verbiage ?

Unless it is considered to be ' hep' to use the kind of language one reads towards the end of what I just read. Given the decorum maintained here one does not feel like c & p parts of it.

The theme is good , relevant and well grasped however the 'bach pana ' displayed I feel may go with age or maturity..whichever comes earlier.

[Scum]

Was it necessary to be crass & gross in the verbiage ?

Unless it is considered to be ' hep' to use the kind of language one reads towards the end of what I just read. Given the decorum maintained here one does not feel like c & p parts of it.

The theme is good , relevant and well grasped however the 'bach pana ' displayed I feel may go with age or maturity..whichever comes earlier.

Languages are human constructs and a lot of the words considered being "crass language" today have had their meanings changed over time. And on top of that, words considered normal today weren't considered taboo a hundred years ago. Such as "damn" . When a movie had "Damn you!" or a similar statement for the first time in hollywood, there was a big commotion over it.

This is the way I speak in real life. I feel no need to restrain myself. I was not targetting the abuses at anyone when I used the so called swear words, I was just expressing the way I feel - as a normal human being, as a normal pakistani, not some sort of elitist with some false notion of standards and values which have no effect on how a person really is. If using obscenities makes me a "hick" or "painda" or "bacha" so be it. I am not in this world for the limited time humans are here, to worry about what people think about my language usage if they do not get the intention behind it or the context.

But, thanks for your feedback. I hope I didn't cause any offense with my response. (People seem to think I'm rude)

[third eye]

The post & article is being read today and not an hundred years ago or hence. It shall therefore be seen / judged in todays context. In any case the subject @ hand is also relevant today.

Are you sure you speak this way in daily life ? Would you use the same verbiage in the presence of parents , sisters & relatives ? The last sentence of the article displays lack of concentration and dropping of guard. Completely avoidable.

The last few paragraphs undid all what came before.

No offense at all, just a sense of regret for someone who appears to have a good grasp on issues and the language but needs refinement.

[Scum]

The last few paragraphs were meant to be that way. It was meant to be direct, angry, confrontational. No passive bullshit, just a human being with an opinion.

And that is a personal thing to ask, but yes I do, with the exception of female members of the family. Make of it what you will. I like my writings to have what I really think, what I really feel and what I really say in real life, but I guess people who use *cough* swear words are "Scum" though, aren't we? Even if it is basic daily every day thing to do so and shouldn't be a big deal to do so in articles if it isn't a big deal anymore in movie and television media. But leave it, it has nothing to do with the content of the article and the thread will just be derailed.

[VCheng]

............ It was meant to be direct.....................

.................. promotion of a personal blog, nothing more, just like what Riaz Haq does here already.

[Scum]

Well I came here to get feedback on it, guage what people thought, argue, etc. If it's wrong to do so as per forum rules, feel free to delete it. No issue here.

[Peregrine]

You have covered so many issues in a single breath, that it's hard to comment.
But one thing that struck out was.

If you people want to prove you are good muslims, be good human beings and take Islam on a personal level. If you are good people, it will be like a perfume and people will be attracted to Islam.

Yes. good people are like a good fragrance and every one wants to be around them, but if, they are insolent and judgmental, then they are not good people, right? I know, that your intention for creating this article, was to create awareness, right? But, how do you expect to captivate people with such brazen stereo-typing. You lumped together all imams as ''Pedophiles'' and all expat Pakistani's as ''Non-Pakistani's'' by being highly offensive. That my friend, is nothing, but a gross generalization, you have conveniently ignored the reasons, that why some people would choose to settle abroad, what works for you, might not work for others, ever thought about that? People don't listen to people, who hurl abuses at them and you know that. While i agree with you on certain pointers you mentioned and you do strike out to be knowledgeable on diverse issues, but you really need to brush up your communication skills, if you want to be taken seriously.

[krash]

Hahaha......You know, very honestly and frankly speaking, this article made me feel happy.

Firstly the 'profanity' used was an instrument towards showcasing how the author feels with regards to what he is writing. No more different than any other form of writing and no less acceptable. He wasn't mindlessly ranting or throwing abuses all around. The diction had a purpose and it was adequately put across. Take it as exclamation rather than insults or slander. Im surprised at the surprise which is being shown here. Thankfully we dont live in a world where there are still that many shackles on the mode of expressing one's self.

Though the author will better explain his intentions but in the meanwhile ill try to state what I have gathered from his words. Peregrine the man has shown reasonable understanding of the various issues, that he has mentioned, so as not to be thought of as disingenuous enough to go blatantly generalizing and stereotyping as such. Those were simple statements addressing that which is undoubtedly rampant in this country without the disclaimer; "Exceptions do exist". I do not believe that anyone needs to be convinced about the despicable state most of our mullahs are in today. The word "pedophile" was used to get the point across. You can use the words 'dishonest', 'ill-mannered', 'corrupt', 'feeble minded', 'retarded', 'moronic', 'uneducated' and 'idiotic' just as well. But then again exceptions still do exist which is unstated and still understood. The part about the expats is something which confused me too so lets see if scum can explain it to us.

On to the content. Well its needless to say that I liked it quite a lot, more so your thoughts than the actual piece of writing, as is important. You have introduced your self and your thoughts to us well. I will not go on about how we think alike, since your article only addressed the surface, and will instead encourage you to write more. Looking forward to reading more of your thoughts. Preferably on this forum.

Also thank you for thinking.

[somebozo]

well said..i pretty much hold the same view..pan islamism is a pipe dream much like soviet union was. Only thing muslims can do is make a strong political block based on common values however nobody will accept rule of foreign civilization in the name of islam.

[Alchemy]

The message of this article is very practical and much needed in this hour for Pakistan .

"Other Muslim countries will have good relations with Pakistan if our country is doing good, and Islam will have nothing to do with it"

Above sentence is absolutely true , how many muslim countries came to the rescue of Iraq , Afghanistan etc etc . ... Today China supports pakistan to a large extent and its non muslim so again religion has little significance only , also In future Pakistan can command more respect and importance only when it gets more economic clout .

[Scum]

Yes. good people are like a good fragrance and every one wants to be around them, but if, they are insolent and judgmental, then they are not good people, right? I know, that your intention for creating this article, was to create awareness, right? But, how do you expect to captivate people with such brazen stereo-typing. You lumped together all imams as ''Pedophiles'' and all expat Pakistani's as ''Non-Pakistani's'' by being highly offensive. That my friend, is nothing, but a gross generalization, you have conveniently ignored the reasons, that why some people would choose to settle abroad, what works for you, might not work for others, ever thought about that? People don't listen to people, who hurl abuses at them and you know that. While i agree with you on certain pointers you mentioned and you do strike out to be knowledgeable on diverse issues, but you really need to brush up your communication skills, if you want to be taken seriously.

I never ever considered myself a good person or good muslim in my entire life. Thank you for commenting though, as I did not mean to generalize the expats. A lot of people from my dad's side are expats, some of my friends in Pak right now are kids of expats whose parents came back to Pakistan, so I know these groups well and made my judgements based on my interactions. What I meant to say with the expat thing was that they should just keep their opinions to themselves if they are not living here or haven't in many years. Would you review a book that you know only from memory or from what others say about it? NO! That was all I wanted to say. They can keep their pro Pak or anti Pak sentiments to themselves, people who are living here - be they Chinese expats or locals - have a right to comment, not people living abroad and judging things from a thousand miles away.

I come from a very rough neighbourhood and I've seen first hand what a majority of the hypocritical mullahs are like. The generalization was 100% intended, but I know there are exceptions ofc. Yes, there is the odd intelligent one who can actually understand stuff, but it would be foolhardy to suggest that they pose a threat to the dominant type of mullahs. Maybe people who grew up in better conditions and better areas like to think that everything is hunky-dory and generalizations are just generalizations, but nah. Not me.

Thanks for commenting and giving your opinions nonetheless! I will certainly attempt to brush up on my communication skills InshAllah (I have always felt an issue in that area, thanks for bringing it up)

I'll continue to write, God willing, and hopefully improve so that more people can understand what I'm saying without me having to adress issues in this manner. Thank you all for your critique, it was much appreciated.

[niaz]

Problem only starts by Islamic State we mean an Islamic theocratic state. Then the question, theocracy according to which interpretation Islam? Because this is where the sectarian conflict starts. This was never meant to be by the founding fathers.

Violation of our sovereignty by USA was insulting enough, now we have Talban who attack a Pakistan city (Bannu) in hundreds, free condemned prisoners and live to boast. We have sections of Pakistan society who are willing to take on USA because of the terrorists killed in drone attacks in North Waziristan; doesn't the violation of Pakistan state as illustrated by the Bannu Jail break out give them any grief? The fault lies with the Taliban loving section of Pakistani people as much as with the inept government

I saw the following article in the News of today. I hate to be harbinger of bad news but if this state of affairs continues, regret to say that future does not appear to be bright for my beloved country.


A pall of gloom

Ghazi Salahuddin
Sunday, April 22, 2012


April, for T S Eliot, is the cruellest month, though for poetic reasons. It mixes memory and desire. For us in Pakistan, this month of April has brought exceptional pain and anguish. A profound sense of gloom has been reinforced by a rush of bad news. And the latest shock that we have to suffer is the Bhoja air crash on Friday evening. Meanwhile, the national trauma of the tragedy in the Gayari sector on the Siachen glacier, where an army camp remains buried in deep snow, has persisted for two excruciatingly long weeks.



Unforeseen accidents apart, we have to contend this month with deadly violence perpetrated by religious fanatics as well as by political and criminal gangsters. At one level, sectarian killings alone constitute a threat to our existence as a civilised country. What has happened in Gilgit is something that raises difficult questions for our rulers have distanced themselves with the real issues of the country.



Killings of the Hazara Shias in Quetta have also made April a month of unbounded sorrow and distress. It is hard to explain why this persecution of a religious minority has continued without any effective response on the part of our security establishment. In a larger perspective, the situation in Balochistan remains scary and unexplored.



April has reactivated the flames of disorder in Karachi, with an increasing number of targeted killings and violent civic disruptions. For days, Lyari remained a battlefield. Friday was another bloody day in the city and around 18 killings were reported. This, by any account, is a heavy toll and underlines the inability of the law enforcement agencies to stem the tide of violence in spite of the outrage that has been expressed about the Karachi situation.



In the midst of all these intimations of anarchy, one April event would stand out for its ignominy and horror. In fact, this incident has fully exposed the loss of authority of the present system. I am referring to the Taliban attack on Bannu jail before dawn on April 15. Last week, I had argued that the brazen manner in which students of matric were shown cheating in their examinations could be considered as the attribute of a failed state. Consider now the circumstances in which a fortified prison was breached by ‘non-state’ actors and draw your own conclusion.



Frankly, I just cannot comprehend that such an operation was possible, except in the imagination of a story teller. I have read different accounts of how it happened. There is also speculation that the jail staff may have colluded with the attackers. Initial reports said that about 400 prisoners were released but the star of the spectacle was Adnan Rashid, convicted of involvement in an attack on former president Pervez Musharraf. He was rescued from his death cell and apparently there was an instant ceremony to celebrate this victory.



The militants arrived in scores of vehicles, armed with guns, grenades and rockets, and after achieving their target, disappeared as if in thin air. Interestingly, there were no casualties – except the legitimacy and the pride of the government at both the provincial and the federal levels. It was reported that the attackers had come from North Waziristan and managed to return to their hideout, with the released prisoners, on a road that is supposed to have six security check points.



Incidentally, I was in Quetta when this happened and was able to see the breaking news flashes about the attack when I woke up in the small hours and instinctively grabbed the remote. I am mentioning this only because I was all set to report on a hectic visit to Quetta that provided an invaluable opportunity to interact with some leading players and stakeholders.



Actually, I was there as a member of the Democracy Assessment Group formed by the Pakistan Institute of Legislative Development and Transparency (Pildat) to share views on the group’s report with the civil society, the media and the representatives of the political parties and the government. Our engagements began with a dinner hosted by Governor Magsi on April 13 and throughout the next day we had meetings with different groups and individuals.



It so happened that our first meeting was set with Abdul Khaliq Hazara, chairman Hazara Democratic Party. He promptly arrived, with his team, at 10 but with the news that on his way to the hotel he had learnt about another attack on his community in which eight persons had been killed. It was the fifth straight day on which the Hazara Shais were attacked.



Using this encounter as a peg, I wanted to focus on the sectarian conflict that has effectively sabotaged the very idea of Pakistan as an Islamic Republic. But I am totally distracted by the Bhoja Air crash in Islamabad. Here is another disaster that has enhanced our collective despair. This time, I am trying to avoid television coverage of the tragedy. It is so heartbreaking.



In the immediate context, some other major stories are likely to be pushed into the background. This, however, does not mean that there will be a pause in the ongoing episodes in the life of the nation and also in individual lives. Our leading politicians will persist in their partisan antics. Proceedings in the Supreme Court will alternately excite and dampen our expectations and in countless minds, raw winds of hatred and intolerance will continue to rage.



On the face of it, nothing much seems to change even when a given number of people are brutally murdered or kidnapped or driven into deep despair by poverty or sickness or fear. But our lives cannot remain untouched by large events that make headlines. It is becoming more and more difficult to find refuge from the outside world, irrespective of one’s power and status in society.



In fact, when we watch our rulers apparently unaffected by the sorrows that bother ordinary citizens, we can be sure that they, too, are subject to a certain emotional and mental condition. Living in denial, for instance, will also have its consequences. Or are they afflicted with a death wish? Are they becoming more suicidal in their behaviour?



Well, there has been one silver lining. On Wednesday, after a visit to the Gayari base with President Zardari, Chief of the Army Staff General Kayani told reporters that peaceful coexistence between India and Pakistan was very important so that “everybody can concentrate on the well-being of the people”. He said that we should spend less on defence and more on development.



Yes, we should not have needed the spotlight on the Siachen madness to understand some very obvious and simple lessons of history. And we do not know if this realisation is too late to deal with our present derelictions.



The writer is a staff member. Email: ghazi_salahuddin@hotmail. com

A pall of gloom - Ghazi Salahuddin

[nuclearpak]

Some things i want to ask the thread starter.

How did you reach the conclusion that all expats are people who have fled away from their country? And what evidences you have to lab them di***heads??

Is it because you are in Pakistan and they are not? Well then, what have you done for Pakistan in all the time you were in Pakistan? Made some mosques, given some charity or anything? Done any nation building, so that you have some right to abuse other people, after making a gross generalization of the expat community.?

Are you a better man than the average Pakistani? Can you present a solution? This is just as if a person who does not offer prayers, asks another guy to offer prayer.

And how old are you?

A young boy, or a mature man?

[Scum]

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Some things i want to ask the thread starter.

How did you reach the conclusion that all expats are people who have fled away from their country? And what evidences you have to lab them di***heads??

Is it because you are in Pakistan and they are not? Well then, what have you done for Pakistan in all the time you were in Pakistan? Made some mosques, given some charity or anything? Done any nation building, so that you have some right to abuse other people, after making a gross generalization of the expat community.?

Are you a better man than the average Pakistani? Can you present a solution? This is just as if a person who does not offer prayers, asks another guy to offer prayer.

And how old are you?

A young boy, or a mature man?

1. I know that they are not people who have simply fled away. People went looking for better job opportunities etc and everything. Some countries like Norway had a programme type scene going on where they were getting in more Asian workers. I wish all my Pakistani brethren well and the best of luck abroad whenever they go. I am not hostile towards them. You may think I'm a mongrel because I used the word dickhead, but it's just an expression, if you wanna comment like this at least read it right. And read my responses, because I just stated a while ago that my point about the Expat thing was that they should keep their opinions about Pakistan to themselves. They don't live here, they live abroad. Would you review a book that you haven't read in a long time? Nooooooooope. And if you did, it would have no worth or not as much as the worth of the words of the people actually living here.

2. I have always tried to do whatever was in my capacity to do something for Pakistan. I started a Pakistani Heavy Metal music blog 5 years ago since that was the only thing I could do, called The Iron Markhor (now dead for a few months since because of issues with the people who host us, but InshAllah I'll get it active again quicklike) and would spread Pakistani underground metal music to people abroad, some of my youtube videos about pakistani metal have reached 10,000+ views with most by american people which made me very happy that I did something to promote a different side of Pakistan to people, even if the number is only 10,000.. I know these achievments are not even good enough to be called achievments but I'm not just talking **** or being an arrogant person, I love my country to my dying breath and want to do whatever is in my power and ability to do something, even at a small level, and what always pissed me off was the lack of support given by fellow *****. They would just criticize and then not do anything themselves. In my experience most pakistanis never want to do anything and those that want to do aren't able to and end up going abroad. Lol.. In my opinion even stopping a crime from happening in your neighbourhood is doing something for your country. My ideas may be simple but it's simple little things that count.

3. I do not claim to be a better man or anything! Had you read the article properly and not get so jazbaati over certain small things, you would have read that but I guess Pakistanis have a problem with properly reading. (I have too, to be honest hahaha. But it's not as bad as a few years ago). Look, I am a normal man living in Pakistan who has only seen Pakistan, who knows not of Bharat and has never stepped in on any foreign soil. I am not better than anyone, and I'm probably worse than most. And I'm not judging anyone, I have no right. All I did, was write down what I feel about what's wrong. There is no need for anyone to get defensive or be offended, because I was not being personal with anyone, except the clergy - and come on, if any one of you is really an Imam you know the problem with most Imams, just like expats know the problem with expats and the children of most expats and how it in turn affects Pakistan. Yeah, Pakistan, the country I was talking about in the article, maybe you thought that I was just spitting verbal venom at everyone because subcontinent people somehow are conditioned to think that any usage of profanity means that there is a "phadda scene". ahaha.