Pakistan: The ‘birth’ of a problem

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The Indian Muslim is the citizen of a country that is way ahead of yours in every conceivable development index.

Not that it has helped Muslims much. According to Indian human rights groups, Muslims and Dalits have benefitted the least, or not at all, from India's economic gains.

The Indian Muslim is far better educated than those from your country.

Doubt that.

The Indian Muslim is much safer in India than your countrymen and women.

The 3000 victims of Gujarat and their relatives would disagree.

The Indian Muslim ..... every Indian Muslim is guaranteed the right to freely practice his religion openly and without fear ..... guaranteed and protected by his government and the judiciary.

Which is irrelevant if they have to face discrimination and stigma in the broader society. Government laws cannot control people's minds and prejudices.

[blueoval79]

I'm sorry, that's the Indian spin, which doesn't mean it's true.

I bet the 1984 massacre of 14000 Sikhs and the 2002 massacre of 3000 Muslims was also due to, uhm, er, well, er....



Wait, I got it.
Pakistan!
Yeah, that's it. It was all Pakistan's fault...

Well in 1984...please see the events that lead to that sikh massacre..... Terrorism..in Punjab...Khalistan movement....Operation Blue Star to kill Terrorists hidden in Golden temple.......just like Lal Masjid in Pakistan...Indian PM got Killed....so The riots....



2002.....A train got burnt...by Muslim Rioters....Hindu Pilgrimages got killed...so the riots......


Look at the events in totality...don't just segregate the events..... for your convenience...

[blueoval79]

BBC NEWS | South Asia | India Muslims 'have lowest rank'

India Muslims 'have lowest rank' "BBC"
Muslims in India are even more disadvantaged than low-caste Hindus, a report commissioned by the government in Delhi suggests.

The report says India's 138m Muslims are poorer and less educated and suffer from higher unemployment and greater mortality than other religious groups.

Details of the report - yet to be published - have been leaked to the local media.

Some ministers are already calling for affirmative action for Muslims.

The Hindu-nationalist BJP party has said it will oppose any system of quotas for Muslims.

Religious riots

BJP General Secretary Arun Jaitley said the Indian constitution does not allow for reservation on the basis of religion and the government should not use the report as a launch pad for religion-based reservation.

India currently implements reservations for disadvantaged castes, but not for religious groups.

Correspondents say India prides itself on being a pluralistic secular democracy. It is often pointed out that India is home to the world's biggest minority, and that there are more Muslims in India than in all of Pakistan, the BBC's Anu Anand in Delhi reports.

But our correspondent says it is unclear how far the government can go to improve Muslims' status in a country that has been torn apart by Hindu-Muslim riots, and has witnessed acts of terror widely blamed on Muslims.

This is an old news....look at something Recent...


NEW DELHI (PPI) - Jama’at-e-Islami Hind (JIH) unveiled a path-breaking action plan to create educational,
health and housing facilities to improve lot of millions of poor Muslims in India.
Alarmed by the findings of Justice Rajinder Sachar Committee, which painted a dismal picture of
socio-economic conditions of India’s 140 million Muslims, Human Welfare Foundation’s Vision-2016 intends to
build a student hostel in each state as well as 10 centres of higher learning has been pegged.
Human Welfare Foundation’s Vision-2016 aimed at providing free quality education and health services to the
poorest among India’s 140 million Muslims. “We are committed to achieve objectives of Vision-2016 within the
stipulated period of time. Funds will be generated through donations,” said KA Siddiq Hassan, a retired
university professor and vice-president of JIH, which is headquartered in New Delhi.
Although the government has plans to improve conditions of minorities, it is increasingly felt that the community’s
lot will change for the better only when Muslims activists and groups contribute their bit.
The Foundation’s health agenda includes setting up a super speciality hospital and 10 speciality hospitals. “The
process and planning for all projects are going on smoothly. Hopefully targets will be achieved,” Hassan said.
It decided to construct 10,000 dwelling units in urban India while 100 model Islamic villages will also be
developed by 2016. Each model village will have 100 houses, a primary and higher secondary school, a
clinic-cum-diagnostic centre, a community hall, a shopping complex and a mosque.
Foundations Vision-2016 talks of total emancipation of poor Muslims. “It aims at imparting quality primary and
secondary education to the poorest among Muslims. We also intend to provide them health facilities and
financial assistance for economic empowerment,” said Hassan.

JI Hind unveils vision 2016 for Indian Muslims | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Vision-2016 , well time will tell

[blueoval79]

Vision-2016 , well time will tell

Then please wait for the time to tell.....don't pass the judgment....right now.....

Have you read the article completely..it also points out out why India Muslims have not moved ahead....No leadership....no vision...till now....so .....

Please read my signature below....

[Developereo]

2002.....A train got burnt...by Muslim Rioters....Hindu Pilgrimages got killed...so the riots......


Look at the events in totality...don't just segregate the events..... for your convenience...

I am not excusing the Muslim rioters by any means. Everyone involved in the train attack atrocity should have been caught and punished.

Instead, the Hindu reaction was a Krystallnacht-style killing spree whereby local and state authorities used census data to identify Muslims' homes and to guide Hindu mobs who killed/raped the Muslims in their homes.

One was a case of criminal thugs perhaps instigated by religious leaders. The other was a state-sponsored pogrom.

[blueoval79]

I am not excusing the Muslim rioters by any means. Everyone involved in the train attack atrocity should have been caught and punished.

Instead, the Hindu reaction was a Krystallnacht-style killing spree whereby local and state authorities used census data to identify Muslims' homes and to guide Hindu mobs who killed/raped the Muslims in their homes.

One was a case of criminal thugs perhaps instigated by religious leaders. The other was a state-sponsored pogrom.

Well in any country....giving any even a communal color is a matter of time.....Remember recently in Pakistan some Christians got killed because some people thought they disrespected Kuran(I mention Kuran here with all due respect)....

[vsdoc]

Not that it has helped Muslims much.

Please refer to my section where I spoke about the Muslim community and its participation in the Indian success story.

Doubt that.

Nothing to doubt here ..... the literacy rates for Pakistan and Indian Muslims are available on the Net ..... may I suggest Google?

The 3000 victims of Gujarat and their relatives would disagree.

Sure they would. But sad as that statistic is, the rest of the 150 odd million Indian Muslims would however look at the LAKHS of Pakistani Muslims shot/stabbed/beheaded/mutilated/blown up/etc. by other Pakistani Muslims, and say a silent prayer for having stayed back in largely tolerant and pluralistic India.

Government laws cannot control people's minds and prejudices.

Exactly. There are prejudices on both sides, but at least with the state machinery providing for equality, the chances of these prejudices being worked out peacefully by fellow Indians is that much higher, as is being seen by the efforts to improve the lot of Indian Muslims, their coming out and speaking out publicly in defense of their motherland against separatist fundamental Islamic forces within and without, and in general the markedly reduced intensity and frequency of Hindu-Muslim riots today.

Nice way to shift the blame onto the victims. I would accept your statement if you also acknowledged the need to combat bigotry in the Hindu/Sikh community.

Nobody is shifting blame. My country, my government, my people. Its like asking me to pick and choose amongst my brothers to say who is innocent and who is to blame. Sorry ...... not happening.

Cheers, Doc

[DaRk WaVe]

Then please wait for the time to tell.....don't pass the judgment....right now.....

Have you read the article completely..it also points out out why India Muslims have not moved ahead....No leadership....no vision...till now....so .....

Please read my signature below....

but still creation of Pakistan is reason for the sufferings of Indian Mulims???
either yes or no...

[blueoval79]

but still creation of Pakistan is reason for the sufferings of Indian Mulims???
either yes or no...

Because of partition...there is still a huge rift between Indian Muslims and Other religions in India.

This situation may improve with time...but as of now....Partition and creation of Pakistan is still a major reason of the current sociopolitical issues here in India.

[DaRk WaVe]

Because of partition...there is still a huge rift between Indian Muslims and Other religions in India.

This situation may improve with time...but as of now....Partition and creation of Pakistan is still a major reason of the current sociopolitical issues here in India.

rifts among different factions in India coz of which coherent society is non existent in India is coz of Pakistan....

u can continue with ur BS in this thread next time if water isnt coming in ur tap report to ministry to send dossier to Pak

[Spring Onion]

Lady ...Muslims were ruling India before Englishmen came and colonized.....and Other religions were being ruled by Muslim Rulers....so had the situation remained same and Britishers had not come to India....its Hindus and other religions in India who would have been sidelined....because Rulers were Muslims...

Muslim Leaders wanted Pakistan because they were of the opinion that since India was taken from Muslim rulers...it should be handed over to Muslim Rulers and not Hindus..who were in Majority Population....they wanted a Muslim Ruled state...so they asked for Partition.......

And don't say India media and History books are biased....because Muslim rulers were ruling India and even your Books claim that.....

if only Muslim rule was the basis for a separate land then entire subcontinent should have been for Muslims.

That is the funniest thing to attribute to the creation of Pakistan.

[blueoval79]

if only Muslim rule was the basis for a separate land then entire subcontinent should have been for Muslims.

That is the funniest thing to attribute to the creation of Pakistan.

May be.....but Hindu majority leaders ..and Muslim Leaders ...decided to divide land based on Population.....It sure sounds funny.

[Spring Onion]

May be.....but Hindu majority leaders ..and Muslim Leaders ...decided to divide land based on Population.....It sure sounds funny.

Ah if that formula was followed honestly, then Muslims in India would not have that much bad condition for sure.

[dk33]

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Is it not ironic that for a country that was demanded and came into being on the basis of Islam, muslim natives cannot find it in their hearts to welcome their "muslim brothers" from the rest of the country and give them a different name "muhajir" and make them feel marginalised enough to try and seek a separate identity by forming a separate non-mainstream political party to represent their interest ..... in a country which they and their fathers "fought for generations for" as many of my Pakistani friends here have claimed. A rather poor reward for that fight and sacrifice I must say ..... and doesn't say much for Islamic brotherhood and the Two-Nation concept overall either.

That is human nature, not something isolated to Pakistan.

India has communal issues and discrimination despite claiming to be secular - the US suffered from racism and discrimination, not just against blacks, but almost every 'new' ethnic/cultural group that settled in the US - The Irish, Italians, Asians etc. And all this despite a constitution that guarantees equality of all men and a separation of Church and State.

On the other hand, look at the Punjabi refugees who came to India and see how they were looked after, assimilated, re-settled and look at how prosperous and forward that community is in India today.

But have you not read anything that has been posted here so far? The Muhajir community is also one of the most successful economically and educated communities in Pakistan. Karachi accounts for the lions share of revenue for the Pakistani State - food for thought.

That my friends has been India for millenia ...... a secular land with a big heart. That is also why the very concept of Pakistan was so abhorrent to the collective sensibility of the people of the land ..... from all faiths including Islam ..... and why they chose India over Pakistan. Which again goes to prove what I have said in an earlier post of mine ...... the ties and bonds of a shared land and culture and history are part of the collective unconscious of the people of a land and are much deeper, stronger, and primal forces than those of religious separatism.

Cheers, Doc

Lets not get self righteous here - the concept of Pakistan is not abhorrent to Indians for any noble reasons such as the ones you mention, but because of irredentist and expansionist desires.

In fact, finding another people and nation 'abhorrent' because of the path they chose for their destiny is in itself an attitude that smacks of disrespect and a superiority complex. It is none of India's business what system of government we choose and what laws we have in place - those are the business of Pakistanis and Pakistan.