Think Tank paper: Pakistan and US aid – Time to send the addict to rehab?

[OrionHunter]

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Thanks Elmo! This is what is called a spot-on analysis! Your post has been a breath of fresh air on an otherwise mostly immature flame and troll ridden landscape on PDF!

The question is, in spite of excellent relations with China since decades, why is that Sino-Pak trade languishes at just around $12 billion? Compare this with Sino-Indian trade which is presently at $60 billion and slated to reach $100 billion by 2015 and $300 billion by 2018!

The only salvation is economic progress by trade with all its neighbors, leaving politics, ego and emotions aside.

As regards ties with the US of A, it all started out with them co-opting Pakistan into CENTO as part of an alliance against the Soviet Union. That faded away gradually. There was no need of SEATO and CENTO once the Soviet Union broke up with the result that Pakistan's importance fell a few notches where the US was concerned.

Then came Afghanistan and Pakistan was once again co-opted to help drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan. That accomplished, Pakistan's indispensability to America lost steam.

However, 9/11 saw the pendulum rise again when Pakistan joined America and the West in the so called WOT.

Now that 2014 is approaching, the question is, will America need Pakistan thereafter? If not it will most likely be dropped from Americas strategic calculus in Asia.

[lem34]

Sometimes Pakistanis forget we are just a pawn or small part of a bigger game. The centre of the universe is not Pakistan. The only game in town is Russia China and America.

Americans have decided that it will rule the world through it's proxies. Pakistan is not one of the proxies. India is along with Israel Saudi etc. To this end America and her allies will use every trick in the book to invade and or encourage regime change to install govts that suit it's geo strategic goals.

In this regards only China and Russia can put a stop to this. As there is an attempt to hem and contain them. They are not doing us any favours. The line has been drawn. Syria has been chosen. Russia and China would throw Assad under a bus if the west and Sauds would back off Iran but so far Sauds are being intransigent.

The niche for Pakistan in all this and believe you me the powers to be in Pakistan realise this is for us to move closer to Russia China Iran maybe under the umbrella of the SCO. That is one of the reasons that Pakistan is standing firm on IP pipeline.

All we have to do is sit there and try to eliminate corruption educate our people etc. Long term India needs Pakistani transit routes. These will be available to China and her corporations. As a result Indian corporations will not be able to compete on an international level with Chinese. Those Hindus/Indians with money who rule India will eventually realise this and will use their press to brain wash their masses to doing a more amenable deal with Pakistan on Kashmir. That is the reason we did not sign the Mush deal

So just chill out the future is bright provided we do not have nuke world war 3.

Anyway VC constructive comments on my comment or I will feel left out lol

[manojb]

I hope Those that r sugesting moving to china camp r learning mandarin or teaching tjeir children..

And before moving china camp make sure even chinese r having very very bad relation ship with usa.

[lem34]

I hope Those that r sugesting moving to china camp r learning mandarin or teaching tjeir children..

And before moving china camp make sure even chinese r having very very bad relation ship with usa.

shoo away. Your education and intellect prevent having meaningful discussion

[Albatross]

I am really thankfull to all the originators of this thread as it offers us a chance to discuss the grave situation we are currently in.I would have it in two steps.
1) America and her aid

We shouldn't refrain from accepting the fact that since 50's america had been our biggest arms and aid supplier.Having acknowledged it I would like to analyse where recently that aid has been going.a)US reimbursed the expenses Pak army claimed for their fight against terrosits but even that has not been sanctioned since 2010 b)US aid programs which mostly were run through private NGO's thus landing US money finally at the hands of people whose workings were opaque and not open to any audit.And many claims this aid landed in pockets of TTP for their offensive against Pak govt c)US aid to govt regarding various projects . ''a" was the money returned to us the one we spent."b" spent on shady projects.''c'' is what we got but considering the corruption in establishment only 40% of that might have been utilized positively.Thus only 15-20% of US aid is used for some contructive purpose .Now if we keep on taking US aid and letting most of it just evaporates in the air whats the use of such aid and it gives us the status of a begging nation.

Having done with aid lets come to other aspects of US relations with pakistan.In 1976 first map of independent balochistan surfaced from america.After king faisal refused US oil supply he was murdered.When ZAB tore apart kissinger letter in UN he was hanged and even before that when JFK signed 11110 taking control of american federal reserve he was assassinated.Point here is america gets what it wants by hook or by crook and even america is run by a group of shady individuals who normally aint any public figures ranging from neo-cons to ashkenzai jews.We should keep in mind the feelings that TTP is getting their weapons through US containers as they transit through pakistan.

American establishment being influenced by jews can never be true benefactor of Pakistan or any muslim state and they are following a well devised plan to create a one world as can be seen from the indepth analysis of NWO.

2)China

Using china as an alternative to US is just a way of saying things when in reality we have no lost love with chinese.We have some common interests that kept both of us together on many issues namely india's increasing desire for regional dominance and US never ending wars in the middle east.But I am sure china would never like to see pakistan in their plate without having any idea of how to deal with us.

Pakistan has all the means to stand on its own feet.Underground tunnels of oil move from our balochistan to Iran wherefrom Iran is extracting oil but we are unable to do so in balochistan owing to security reasons and also our inability to master the drilling techniques while many arab nations are doing it successfully.Massive untapped copper and gold reserves in balochistan and coal in sindh can be of huge worth . By providing transit facilities to landlocked central asian states and china can earn us billions anually.

Conclusion is we dont need any foreign help from any nation when Almighty has given us all the required resources.What we need is a plan and honest governance and the things at home have reached such a boiling point that I guess if we would be able to act now otherwise it would be too late.But at present we cant afford to just breakoff from US and attach to china things dont work that way.We will have to taper down slowly our dependence on States both economically and militarily while working really hard at home to educate our masses,building infrastructure and changing our label from a terrorist supporting state to a neutral just state.It all will take time untill then we should adopt active diplomacy but at the same time strengthing hands of ISI to keep us aware of the intricate workings of US and israel as at the end of the day they are our biggest enemies.

[longbrained]

I think it is time for Pakistan to have a rethink of its foreign policy. Depending on one country is a bad idea. Pakistan must balance its relations with US. The best options are for Pakistan to go on aggressive diplomacy and develop ties with China, Russia and Iran. We have to balance US with regard to Pakistan. And this is the best way.

[fd24]

I think it is time for Pakistan to have a rethink of its foreign policy. Depending on one country is a bad idea. Pakistan must balance its relations with US. The best options are for Pakistan to go on aggressive diplomacy and develop ties with China, Russia and Iran. We have to balance US with regard to Pakistan. And this is the best way.

Agree - Pakistan has given so so much in one relationship that in fact other relations have suffered - still i think the penny has dropped finally. There are relations we need to build and become pro active in developing ties to mutually assist in developing our long term stability. I wish we could keep on accommodating terms with the US - but sadly the fundamental issue is their intentions backed by Zionist agendas can never have empathy with our policies....

[Contrarian]

All we have to do is sit there and try to eliminate corruption educate our people etc. Long term India needs Pakistani transit routes. These will be available to China and her corporations. As a result Indian corporations will not be able to compete on an international level with Chinese. Those Hindus/Indians with money who rule India will eventually realise this and will use their press to brain wash their masses to doing a more amenable deal with Pakistan on Kashmir. That is the reason we did not sign the Mush deal

If you feel Pakistan should bank on ability to provide land transit as being the key which over due course of time will make India give Pakistan bigger concessions then you are wrong for a number of points.

If your strategy hedges on transit then there are two essential elements regarding what constitutes transit for India:
1. Energy
2. Goods

Your strategy entails decades ie it is a long term strategy. In the long run if you feel India will be dependent on gas transported across Pakistan to India you are plain wrong. Thats energy security 101. The success of failure of Indian companies will never be dependent on transit provided by Pakistan because India has a very large coastline. As with that, India also has geographic width. Our gas/oil will be sourced not just from GCC but also from Africa, Myanmar and domestic production which includes something on which India is banking for in the future- thorium reactors - the technology to harness it is not yet available.

Secondly, as regards to goods - India does not need Pakistan exclusively for access to Central Asia. India has another big option - Iran. How long do you presume the Iranian govt will continue to be the worlds outcast. India has already invested in a port there and in connecting infrastructure to Afghanistan and North from Iran as well. As and when Iran joins the global mainstream, the value of Pakistans ports and access decreases.

Your argument that Pakistan will prove to be the lynchpin for Indian corporates globally is very wrong. Infact what has happened over the last 2 decades is that Indian positions have been continually hardening wrt Pakistan because of the increasing gap of military and global clout between the two. This trend will continue for the foreseeable future.

[VCheng]

Sometimes Pakistanis forget we are just a pawn ...................

Anyway VC constructive comments on my comment or I will feel left out lol

Just how constructive can I be on your post that declares Pakistan as a pawn. Since when can pawns do what they want?

[MastanKhan]

What if America does not want to? Or America's price is too high??? Two statements that I believe to be correct.

That article is a P O S article----the writer and the advisers are totally clueless as to what has happened, what needs to be done and what the future holds for the nation otherwise known as pakistan.

If you expected better or something different from me---then read my older posts---what do you guys think china is going to do----. China has given you all the leeway to do the right thing---. If it was for china---it would have also dumped pakistan---but for the geographic location and due to our gung ho loyalty to china.

If you want better things from others---then you need to learn to do things differently and not to live in ignorance. Pakistan needs to learn to face the world on the tv screen and in front of the foreign media----and so do the pakistani generals.

Look at this guy KIYANI---russi hoi raan----like a woman upset at her lover---doesn't even want to talk to the betrothen now---used and abused. Does he remember that time when they wined and dined him----he really had thought that he had become somebody---but guess what---the lamb was being fattened to be slaughtered---. And when Mike Mullen slaughtered him in front of the u s tv media----our general could only bleat mehhhhhhhhh and since then he hasn't uttered a word---.

When Julius Ceasar rode his chariot in the city streets and the people cheered him on----he had a slave standing next to him whispering in is ears---CEASAR THOU ART HUMAN---to keep his feet and mind on the ground----did Kiyani think otherwise----.

I have told you many a times---you got to make a decision---you have to kill the al qaeda and pak taliban and their supporters. The choice is yours---.

The issue of the 'red mosque' showed that you people still have not learnt to be an adult nation---a nation that does not think like a grown man---a nation that does not know its identity---. The issue of the sugar shortage showed that you had no courage to confront the criminal politicians---the shortage of electricity showed---even though you peopele were stealing most of it---you had no clue how to address the problem---you had never seen so much well being in you life and when you got to that point---you turned on the very person.

In my business---there are ordinary sales people---there are average sales people---there are good sales people---and then there are those who are known as extra ordinary sales people---in is in the destiny of some people to have more---and when you work with those people---just being in their presence you get more---.

And then there are those---at every turn and nook and corner and oppurtunity---they come and steal from you---and you turn around and let them have it all. You need to look and begin to understand who you are--if that is what you have been doing in the past----how can you begin to do anything different and beneficial to the motherland----.

When you burn your trains and buses and your businesses---do you really believe that you are ready to be placed amongst the league of nations otherwise known as civilized nations. Do you people really think that you are capable of doing any thing constructive for the well being of the nation without making any real sacrifices---the sacrifice of blood and human life---.

You people have not even paid the price to the pied piper and you kids think that it will just all change---just like that----. People---you got to kill the criminals---criminals that are ripping of the nation---is there any young man over here who can say---I saw the rapist of a young boy or I saw the gang that raped the girl and I have killed them all because the law of my land is worthless---the judges of my land are without a backbone---police in my country are criminals----.

Pakistan needs a blooding---you want your nation to be respected---you want dignity for your nation---you want honor---you want to walk with pride and honor---you got to start some place---in order for you people to take your honor and dignity back---you need to spill the blood of the criminals that have looted and plundered you.

And as for china---what do you think china can do---your foolish ex defence minister already put china in deep trouble---. China hs no expansiontist visions---it is having an extremely difficult time to manage what ever is in its plate as of now---its defence forces are woefully thin in technology---its air force is in a horrible condition--its naval forces are barely making it thru---.

Don't bury china with your problems and issues----it has enough of its headaches. You have been isolated---and now you are slowly but surely being starngled---what ever education that you got---has done nothing for you to learn anything about the world and hopw to deal with the realtime problem.

Only thing that you people are---is CLEVER---that's it----clever as a fox---you can count thew feathers of a sparrow flying by---but tragically you always fall in your own 'dump'.

And ELMO---I would love you as my daughter---but you have to do better at what you write---and when you write---take the thoughts and encouragement from the winners and not the losers----do it on your own---I know you can do it on your own---. What I am saying is that don't use losers as your crutch----. Don't write an average post and expect kudos---. I have always given you enough material and resource to do your own thinking in a clear and open manner. Understand the strategy and the gamesmanship---stop thinking like an average pakistani for a moment----become a cloud and hover above the situation and look from top down---rather from inside out---.

When you write---keep your prejudice and hatred aside---you cannot think straight with a hateful and angry mind.

[MastanKhan]

I think it is time for Pakistan to have a rethink of its foreign policy. Depending on one country is a bad idea. Pakistan must balance its relations with US. The best options are for Pakistan to go on aggressive diplomacy and develop ties with China, Russia and Iran. We have to balance US with regard to Pakistan. And this is the best way.

Guy---just kill the terrorists---that is all you need to do----wipe them out---you have the world behind you---you have the oppurtunity and momentum going behind you----. Just keep on taking them out and let your media blaze the news all the time in sync with your operations.

You have to do things that you can control----you can control the killing of the terrorists and their supporters----you cannot control the allegiance of other nations---. Neither is china and nor is russia in any condition and position to face off the u s---and talk of iran----don't humiliate yourself---.

[nick_indian]

^^^ hmm.. I don't think it was a bad write up at all . A lot of her points made sense . At least to me

[lem34]

.Underground tunnels of oil move from our balochistan to Iran wherefrom Iran is extracting oil but we are unable to do so in balochistan owing to security reasons and also our inability to master the drilling techniques while many arab nations are doing it successfully.

And dev you thanked this?

^^^ hmm.. I don't think it was a bad write up at all . A lot of her points made sense . At least to me

it wasn't an article it was sentimental rambling and hogwash with no direction or serious suggestion

Guy---just kill the terrorists---that is all you need to do----wipe them out---you have the world behind you---you have the oppurtunity and momentum going behind you----. Just keep on taking them out and let your media blaze the news all the time in sync with your operations.

You have to do things that you can control----you can control the killing of the terrorists and their supporters----you cannot control the allegiance of other nations---. Neither is china and nor is russia in any condition and position to face off the u s---and talk of iran----don't humiliate yourself---.

Respect you Sir for your seniority but it is getting difficult to do so.

Just how constructive can I be on your post that declares Pakistan as a pawn. Since when can pawns do what they want?

Do you agree with my assessment that we are a pawn/cog. Mind you most countries are anyway. We should be happy our silly leadership have very little choice in what they can do. All they are doing and will continue to do is swim with the tide

Those of you that are thinking that the suggestion is that we rely on China are wrong. China is and will do what is in it's interest. Both China and Russia can not afford to be constrained and contained as west and NATO want.

It is silly for anyone to think that China or Russia will risk their citizens lives to assist Syria Iran or Pakistan. And yes we are in that category.

China & Russia are doing and will continue doing what they are to protect their interests. They do not want one by one all these countries to be taken out or regime changes undertaken because they are the real targets so that American empire can extend it's shelf life.

The best our leaders can do is to swim with the tide and that is cooperate with those that have an alternate vision to the Americans

[nick_indian]

And dev you thanked this?



it wasn't an article it was sentimental rambling and hogwash with no direction or serious suggestion



Respect you Sir for your seniority but it is getting difficult to do so.




Do you agree with my assessment that we are a pawn/cog. Mind you most countries are anyway. We should be happy our silly leadership have very little choice in what they can do. All they are doing and will continue to do is swim with the tide

Those of you that are thinking that the suggestion is that we rely on China are wrong. China is and will do what is in it's interest. Both China and Russia can not afford to be constrained and contained as west and NATO want.

It is silly for anyone to think that China or Russia will risk their citizens lives to assist Syria Iran or Pakistan. And yes we are in that category.

China & Russia are doing and will continue doing what they are to protect their interests. They do not want one by one all these countries to be taken out or regime changes undertaken because they are the real targets so that American empire can extend it's shelf life.

The best our leaders can do is to swim with the tide and that is cooperate with those that have an alternate vision to the Americans

For the bolded part Just to be honest bro , I think most members on this forum will agree . Elmo and Mastan Khan make far more sense than you .No offence meant

[lem34]

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For the bolded part Just to be honest bro , I think most members on this forum will agree . Elmo and Mastan Khan make far more sense than you .No offence meant

They may make more sense to you from your perspective and that is an Indian one. I have noticed Elmo in the past entertain you Indians as mates in friendly terms. I will not cos I see through most of you Indians. In any event if you had read the OP its just a few paragraphs out of a few newspaper articles. In any event your self serving comments do not make sense if you read MK's past posts and Elmo's I do not see the common ground.