Indian involvement with anti-state elements in Pakistan

[Tiki Tam Tam]

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Bull,

In my humble opinion, neither country can afford a nuclear exchange!

True India will suffer less, but would you ever be able to live down that "little sufferance" that India would suffer?

To me every part of India, whether I am in that nuclear strike area, is material for me. Every part of India and Indians there, are dear to me, even if I live out the nuclear strike, being beyond the range!

No, Bull, I don't think Pakistan or India will resort to nukes! Both of our leaders are men of compassion and beyond clinical sterility of imagination and heart!

[Spring Onion]

Jana,

You are right!

But each country has it own compulsions.

Very true sir but would it not be stupidity to allow a third party to walk away with same and both of us will left with no other option to lick our wounds?

You understand what i mean, keeping in view the currecnt struggle by big powers to hold on to everything that would prove more beneficial for them in the long run.
also keep the location of Kashmir in mind.

[Bull]

How can yoy afford it Bull?

If you are saying that after using nukes India would wipe up entier Pakistan and India being big country will survive (the same old stupid notion).

Or if you are saying India can afford it economicaly ?

I meant we will be better off after such an exchange.

[haviZsultan]

Really?

Let us say that what you say is correct.

Then why is China, the greatest friend, fighting shy to do so, in every war?



Now what exactly does the stuff in bold signify?

Not suggesting war. And war is the only answer!

It is Pakistan which stated that it would use nukes during the Kargil war. Remember?

There really is something wrong with you. When did Pakistan threaten with nuclear weapons?

Tchh Well someone forgot about a war-mongering defence minister! When did we say we will use nukes? Fine prove it if it is so true!

Well i have proof from the same war-mongering defence minister!

On Tuesday reports quoted Indian Defence Minister George Fernandes as saying that in any nuclear exchange India would easily absorb a nuclear hit whereas Pakistan would "cease to exist."

Something similar to what Bull is suggesting...

Also check this out about how Pakistanophobia always seems to strike BJP

dionnebunsha.com: Akshardham ups the ante

[blitz]

Dimension, i will copy-paste my earlier post. Waiting for your response.

"lets debate. So you are saying that Pakistan will wage a conventional war to gain Kashmir ? Question is, where and how do you control the escalation ladder ? See i stated the scenario pretty clearly in my last post, but instead of countering it, you went on senseless tangents. I do not have the patience to engage in your circular reasoning with no head or tail, so i will state my points clearly and concisely.

Ways by which Kashmir can be liberated from 'evil yindoos' :

1. I will start from where i left off in my last post. PAF will need to be fully involved in case PA wants to forcibly and conventionally capture Kashmir, do you agree ? Does the PA and PAF have the requisite amount of power projection capability to be able to support hundreds of thousands of troops on rugged inhospitable enemy terrain, engaged in high intensity war and versus a much bigger and powerful IAF and IA ? Its a flat NO !!

2. Now in case of your scenario of native Kashmiris rising up in open rebellion, yes that is a possibility. I would also like to remind you that open rebellion and insurgency are two different things. But the slight problem is, that any indigenous revolt of any meaningful scale will be ruthlessly put down by the Indian Army. Now you surely do not assume that an open rebellion by rag tag Kashmiri militias would be able to take on the Indian state do you ? It won't.

3. Insurgency is the third option for Kashmiris. Kashmir has already been in the midst of an insurgency for the past 17 years, and so far it has not shown any tangible results for their cause. So i will take the liberty to assume that the present state of affairs is not going to lead anywhere for Kashmiris. Do you agree or disagree ?

If you can think of any more ways by which Kashmir can be liberated from 'evil yindoo' hands, then state them. But please do it in a tabular format.

And finally i would like to mention one last, but apparently very important fact here. China will not intervene for Pakistan's sake in case of open hostilities versus India. Let me say that again, China will not help by opening a 2nd front. It will provide covert logistics and military support yes. But frankly i doubt if China will even support Pakistan diplomatically. In case you are still clinging on to hope i will say one last time, China will NOT come to the rescue. Actions speak louder than words. If you disagree here, please ask more experienced Pakistani members of this board."

[Spring Onion]

I meant we will be better off after such an exchange.

Bull Sir Ray had explain that to you.

How will you be better off afte such an exchange ?

You had forgotem the trauma of victims of Heroshima incidents and the affects on the coming generation ?

Even being big country if half of or even quarter of India is destroyed in nuke attacks and affects of these will go on for decades.

Indid is not developed country to fight these affects that easily.

Pluse the destruction of major industries as major cities of india i think are in our range of nukes isnt it?

and also keep in mind the use of biological, chemical stuff its use surely will affect the coming generation besides almost wipping out the agricultur on which most of the indians depend.


And what will be use even if you survive will you cheerish the crippled surviors who would be a burdened rather than of any use to the country.

[Bull]

Bull Sir Ray had explain that to you.

How will you be better off afte such an exchange ?

You had forgotem the trauma of victims of Heroshima incidents and the affects on the coming generation ?

Even being big country if half of or even quarter of India is destroyed in nuke attacks and affects of these will go on for decades.

Indid is not developed country to fight these affects that easily.

Pluse the destruction of major industries as major cities of india i think are in our range of nukes isnt it?

and also keep in mind the use of biological, chemical stuff its use surely will affect the coming generation besides almost wipping out the agricultur on which most of the indians depend.


And what will be use even if you survive will you cheerish the crippled surviors who would be a burdened rather than of any use to the country.

Well you understand english , right. I said 'better off'.

[Spring Onion]

Well you understand english , right. I said 'better off'.

No i don Bull so please explain

I think i dont understand your one liner

So you better explain what you mean by "better off" even after exchange of nukes ?

i think you are lacking arguments Bull these days.

And i also think that whatever i said in my earlier posts negate your claim of being better off after exchange of nukes with Pakistan.

[Bull]

No i don Bull so please explain

I think i dont understand your one liner

So you better explain what you mean by "better off" even after exchange of nukes ?

i think you are lacking arguments Bull these days.

And i also think that whatever i said in my earlier posts negate your claim of being better off after exchange of nukes with Pakistan.

[haviZsultan]

Dimension, i will copy-paste my earlier post. Waiting for your response.

"lets debate. So you are saying that Pakistan will wage a conventional war to gain Kashmir ? Question is, where and how do you control the escalation ladder ? See i stated the scenario pretty clearly in my last post, but instead of countering it, you went on senseless tangents. I do not have the patience to engage in your circular reasoning with no head or tail, so i will state my points clearly and concisely.

Ways by which Kashmir can be liberated from 'evil yindoos' :

1. I will start from where i left off in my last post. PAF will need to be fully involved in case PA wants to forcibly and conventionally capture Kashmir, do you agree ? Does the PA and PAF have the requisite amount of power projection capability to be able to support hundreds of thousands of troops on rugged inhospitable enemy terrain, engaged in high intensity war and versus a much bigger and powerful IAF and IA ? Its a flat NO !!

2. Now in case of your scenario of native Kashmiris rising up in open rebellion, yes that is a possibility. I would also like to remind you that open rebellion and insurgency are two different things. But the slight problem is, that any indigenous revolt of any meaningful scale will be ruthlessly put down by the Indian Army. Now you surely do not assume that an open rebellion by rag tag Kashmiri militias would be able to take on the Indian state do you ? It won't.

3. Insurgency is the third option for Kashmiris. Kashmir has already been in the midst of an insurgency for the past 17 years, and so far it has not shown any tangible results for their cause. So i will take the liberty to assume that the present state of affairs is not going to lead anywhere for Kashmiris. Do you agree or disagree ?

If you can think of any more ways by which Kashmir can be liberated from 'evil yindoo' hands, then state them. But please do it in a tabular format.

And finally i would like to mention one last, but apparently very important fact here. China will not intervene for Pakistan's sake in case of open hostilities versus India. Let me say that again, China will not help by opening a 2nd front. It will provide covert logistics and military support yes. But frankly i doubt if China will even support Pakistan diplomatically. In case you are still clinging on to hope i will say one last time, China will NOT come to the rescue. Actions speak louder than words. If you disagree here, please ask more experienced Pakistani members of this board."

You mentioned Icecold before and now you pick me out of the crowd and say your coments are for me? Is it an "Evil Yindoo Indian" habit to pick someone out of the crowd and start bullying him unnecessarily or blaming him for being responsible for your misfortunes?

I did not say that we WILL do it as war is'nt something Pakistanis enjoy unlike Indians but I said that if Kashmir is to be liberated it is probably one of the few options available!

1) I thought it was a yes... if the attacks are coordinated well between the PAF and PA and we fight with passion and vigour you never know! Kashmir is valleys and mountains... numbers will not matter that much but the strategic locations will matter. If you think it is so powerful then you are entitled to have your views no matter what my opinion on the selected topic is You base your point on the idea that India is more powerful than Pakistan which is a commonly held belief in India fed by war-mongerers like Bull. I do not think that IA and the IAF are superior to our army! True you have larger numbers but those numbers have not mattered

2) Well, but it would pre-occupy the Indian army enough! If there is such a popular rebellion take my word you will not be able to deal with both problems! You will lose considerable land to Pakistan trying to crush a rebellion in Kashmir! Your resources would be diverted to two fronts! The rag-tag militias preoccupying you guys in Kashmir and the Pakistani army fighting soldiers on the border... true you might crush the rebellion before the our army reaches Srinagar but if there is a rebellion of a such a scale India along with a Pakistani attack it will be too much! Please don't forget how Aksai Chin was lost while you were busy concentrating on us. Also if there is such a great rebellion in Kashmir it might block arms and supplies from getting to soldiers fighting at the fronts as everything has to pass Kashmir to get there.

3) An insurgency of a small scale that is, I would say! I am talking about an absolute revolt against Indian rule! That is what will make the difference. You remember the arms depot catching fire and how 4 or 5 fund-starved Kashmiri groups took responsibility for the attack? That proves what Kashmiri insurgents want to do with Indian rule but it also proves how helpless they are as they do not have funding! Now wonder what might happen if we start providing funds to these insurgents and supplying them with arms and give them means to attack you...

Is something wrong? Did you fall in the ditch and hit your head against something hard again? You are making up stuff again... Well thats another Indian trait... Anyway when did i mention that China will come to aid us? And do we really need China to help us in such a case? If the Kashmiri people are so discontent and they rise up against Indian rule and the Pakistan army and airforce strike India then India will lose much of Kashmir to these enemies! The discontention of Kashmiris is a major disadvantage to India in the case of a war please don't forget that!

[su-47]

You mentioned Icecold before and now you pick me out of the crowd and say your coments are for me? Is it an "Evil Yindoo Indian" habit to pick someone out of the crowd and start bullying him unnecessarily or blaming him for being responsible for your misfortunes?

I did not say that we WILL do it as war is'nt something Pakistanis enjoy unlike Indians but I said that if Kashmir is to be liberated it is probably one of the few options available!

1) I thought it was a yes... if the attacks are coordinated well between the PAF and PA and we fight with passion and vigour you never know! Kashmir is valleys and mountains... numbers will not matter that much but the strategic locations will matter. If you think it is so powerful then you are entitled to have your views no matter what my opinion on the selected topic is You base your point on the idea that India is more powerful than Pakistan which is a commonly held belief in India fed by war-mongerers like Bull. I do not think that IA and the IAF are superior to our army! True you have larger numbers but those numbers have not mattered

As of today the PAF's best planes are the F-16 block 15s which arent even BVR capable. India has 100s of BVR capable aircraft that can blast the PAF out of the skies before the PAF aircraft even realise what hit them. Also, if PAF are flying into kashmir, they'll have to consent with Indian SAMs.

Numbers always matter in a war. Ask any military man. To say numbers dont matter is sheer stupidity. The fact is that numbers are not the only factor that matters. Numbers make a difference when used sensibly. eg when flanking.

2) Well, but it would pre-occupy the Indian army enough! If there is such a popular rebellion take my word you will not be able to deal with both problems! You will lose considerable land to Pakistan trying to crush a rebellion in Kashmir! Your resources would be diverted to two fronts! The rag-tag militias preoccupying you guys in Kashmir and the Pakistani army fighting soldiers on the border... true you might crush the rebellion before the our army reaches Srinagar but if there is a rebellion of a such a scale India along with a Pakistani attack it will be too much! Please don't forget how Aksai Chin was lost while you were busy concentrating on us. Also if there is such a great rebellion in Kashmir it might block arms and supplies from getting to soldiers fighting at the fronts as everything has to pass Kashmir to get there.

The Kashmiri people never rose up in 1999 during kargil war, and i dont see why they would now. But however, if they do rise in revolt, they will be very poorly equipped and trained. as such, if IA decides to fire on the people, they will stand no chance.

Also, IA is much better supplied in Kashmir than you think. Being such a hot zone, IA has many supply depots, airfields and railway networks there.

3) An insurgency of a small scale that is, I would say! I am talking about an absolute revolt against Indian rule! That is what will make the difference. You remember the arms depot catching fire and how 4 or 5 fund-starved Kashmiri groups took responsibility for the attack? That proves what Kashmiri insurgents want to do with Indian rule but it also proves how helpless they are as they do not have funding! Now wonder what might happen if we start providing funds to these insurgents and supplying them with arms and give them means to attack you...

Pakistan maybe able to fund a few rebel groups, but to fund an army capable of bogging down the IA and capturing a whole state is impossible. It wont be easy sending hundreds of thousands of weapons over the border.

Also, if Pak stirs up trouble in Kashmir, india can divert PA by stirring up trouble in balochistan or NWFP. And if the rebellion in Kashmir is crushed, then the much larger IA can open up the western front in punjab, forcing PA and PAF to divert their attention.

Also IN can blockade pak ports like in 1999, forcing Pak to disengage.

[Tiki Tam Tam]

There really is something wrong with you. When did Pakistan threaten with nuclear weapons?

Dimesion,

I hope this will be of help to realise who has something wrong. Please be abreast with the events.

Emboldened by the tests, in 1999 Pakistan’s army and political leaders sent Islamist militants and troops across the Line of Control near the town of Kargil in Indian-held Kashmir. After two months of bitter fighting, and intervention by the USA, the troops were withdrawn. Pakistani leaders believe that, while they failed to fulfil their anticipated military or political objectives in the Kargil war, Pakistan’s nuclear weapons prevented India from launching a massive military attack across either the Line of Control in Kashmir or the long international border.
SIPRI YEARBOOK 2003, CHAPTER 5

The first hint of the possible use of a nuclear bomb was on May 31 when Pakistani foreign secretary Shamshad Ahmad made a statement warning that an escalation of the limited conflict could lead Pakistan to use "any weapon" in its arsenal
Quoted in News Desk, “Pakistan May Use Any Weapon,” The News, May 31, 1999.

I believe The News is a Pakistani newspaper.

if the attacks are coordinated well between the PAF and PA and we fight with passion and vigour you never know!

Meaningless rhetoric.

Are you suggesting that till now the PAF and PA were poddlefaking? are you suggesting that the PA and the PAK till now did not fight with vigour and passion? Do not denigrate the PA and PAF just to prove your point.

[IceCold]

Well blitz i palce my arguments against some one who tends to counter it with arguments and not personal opinion. Where did i said that pakistan should start a convetional or even nuclear war with india, i said that there is not dialouge solution to it. What is there so hard for you and other indians to understand here. You take kashmir as an integral part of India is it not? Where as we take it as a disputed terrority and IA as an occupied force. Now i am not debating here who's right and who's wrong but the fact that both of us have a different prepestive of seeing things and because we are so stubborn about it, none of us is willing to back step on it. So whats the solution then, there comes the military one. But then this is totally another question whether we can or cannot do it, and i dont intend to debate on that because then ignorant people from both sides will jump in and ruin the debate, all i'm saying and what Mr Salim aggreed with me on that is there is no political solution possible for resolving the kashmir dispute. And that is the only reason i always state in my post is that either we take it by force or we just leave it, there is no point of hanging in between but then again whether we can or cannot is another issue because waging war, kashmir is not only the issue one has to keep in mind there are others as well, the destruction, the death toll of innocent people, economy disrupting, sactions and most importantly the nuclear factor.

[dabong1]

‘RAW, Mossad had a hand in killing of three Chinese’




By Ashfaq Yusufzai

PESHAWAR, Oct 2: The city police chief said on Tuesday that he suspected the involvement of RAW and Mossad in the killing of three Chinese nationals here two-and-a-half months ago and claimed to have arrested three suspects in the case.

“The killers were paid Rs6.50 million by enemies in neighbouring Afghanistan. We suspect involvement of RAW and Mossad who are active there,” said the Chief of Capital City Police, Abdul Majeed Marwat.

Addressing a news conference at the Police Lines on Tuesday, he said three people had been arrested in connection with the killings of three Chinese citizens in an auto-rickshaw workshop in the Khazana locality on July 8.

The arrested suspects have been identified as Sameen Khan, son of Gul Mohammad, of Mian Killey Michni; Jehangir Khan, son of Izzat Khan, of Pir Bala, Peshawar; and Ali Gohar, son of Tariq, of Matta Mughalkhel, Charsadda, presently residing in Darazgai in Peshawar.

He said that the Chinese embassy in Islamabad had been asked to call to Pakistan an injured Chinese who had survived the attack to identify the suspects.

One of the suspects, Ali Gohar, said he had been falsely implicated in the case.

He rejected the police claim that the car used by the killers was owned by him.

“I had sold the car two months back. I don’t know the arrested men,” he told reporters.

Accompanied by SSP Operations Mohammad Tahir Khan, the CCP said the police had also seized two cars from their possession.


‘RAW, Mossad had a hand in killing of three Chinese’ -DAWN - National; October 03, 2007

[Tiki Tam Tam]

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Icecold,

Your contention cannot be faulted. Indeed it is cul de sac.

The lines held by either side is too rigid to reason.

I find no solution in a hurry.

Personally, I would rather have a warmer relations with Pakistan even if the Kashmir issue hangs fire. It is not that I don't care, it is just that I see no solution and yet, on the other hand, I find no reason why one cannot be friends with Pakistan.

There is much that Pakistan can give to India and maybe if Pakistan wants, from India to Pakistan. For instance, Pakistan can give tourism, Pakistan agricultural produce including fruits, Muree beer, Shan masala, Sui gas, Calcutta's Kabuliwallhas from Kabul and NWFP (read Rabindranath Tagore's story 'Kabuliwallah' to realise the closeness of people and the pathos) and many other things of Pakistan. It will also lead to better and easier meetings of families divided by the Partition.

Why should one issue alone, where there seems to be no answer, wreck up the whole lot of common ground?