Brazil to provide 100 missiles to Pakistan

[fatman17]

Originally Posted by phoenix80

roopesh, the missile is an attempt by Brazil to secure a place in defence market. the delivery will be an interesting issue as India has been known to scuttle previous contracts of Pakistan. The fact that India intends to induct upto 12 new Embrarer based AEWs offhand which is minimum 20 times the present deal, can be great temptation for Brazil to back out from its obligation. Its something like spiking french offers to pakistan by using Civil Aircraft deal. The Agosta sub deal went thru only post award of contract to Boeing.

if the MAR-1 is inferior as u claim, then why is india "worried" about a miserly 100 missiles and putting so called "pressure" on Brazil to scuttle the contract!!

and please provide examples of french "spiking" potential french-pak deals?

i am waiting!

[maximus]

Originally Posted by fatman17

if the MAR-1 is inferior as u claim, then why is india "worried" about a miserly 100 missiles and putting so called "pressure" on Brazil to scuttle the contract!!

and please provide examples of french "spiking" potential french-pak deals?

i am waiting!

Well, to put it mildly, they are stunned!

Brazil's Sale Of Missiles To Pakistan Surprises India

The Indian Air Force has taken note of Pakistan’s latest acquisition of 100 anti-radiation missiles (ARM) from Brazil. The missile is an air-to-surface weapon used for destroying air defence ground radars.

Pakistan bought the missiles from Brazil last month. Brazil’s decision to go ahead with the deal at the height of tension in the subcontinent has surprised Indian defence experts.

The missile has a maximum range of 25 km and has a 200 pound warhead. Fired from fighter jets, it seeks and destroys air defence radars even when they are deactivated.

Indian officials said that the IAF also has its own ARMs which are capable of meeting the threat. The IAF fighter jets use Russian Kh-31 ARMs with passive homing radar.

These missiles are fitted on top of the line fighter like Su-30 MKI.

Brazil had MAR-1 missiles in late 1999s for its Embraer/ Aermacchi fighters.

There is an interesting tale about the development of the missile which is believed to be a derivative of US AGM-45 Shrike ARM. Shrike ARM was fitted on British Avro Vulcon jets.

During the Falkan waragainst Argentina, a Vulcan developed a snag while returning from a sortie.

Brazilian F-5 fighters escorted the aircraft back.

The Royal Air Force plane landed at a Brazilian airfield and returned after the technical fault was removed.

But the Shrike was held back by the Brazilians. The missile was returned later but not before the Brazilian engineers had taken a “good look” at it.

There is a general belief in Brazil that Mar-1 (Missil Anti-Radiacao 1) was developed out of the episode although little is known about its features. It has an autonomous target search and GPS.

Indian officials said the deal signed in December is being closely watched.

It came as a surprise as Brazil has close military relations with India.

The two countries had come closer in recent years as part of the South-South cooperation programme.

New Delhi has a trilateral co-operation arrangement with Brazil and South Africa.

The Indian Air Force had recently purchased Brazilian Embraer executive jets.

Source: http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/s...hHe7IsSU=&SEO=

[Growler]

why the heck do indians keep referring MAR-1 with agm-45? like i have said, it kind of reflects their cheap mentality of assuming everything is downgraded stuff when talking of pakistan. first of all. MAR-1 guidance system is very very different from old SEAD missiles such as Agm-45 and old variant of agm-88. i would rather compare this missile with new HARM variants such as 88D and E.



AIR WEAPONS: Brazilian HARM For Pakistan
Tuesday, Dec 09, 2008
Brazil has sold a hundred MAR-1 anti-radiation missiles to Pakistan. The MAR-1 weighs 603 pounds, is 13 feet long and has a max range of 25 kilometers. It has a 200 pound warhead and is used to seek out and destroy air-defense radars. Pakistan paid about $1.1 million for each missile (including training, tech support and spare parts). Top speed of the missile is about a 1,200 kilometers an hour (335 meters a second). At max range, it takes about two minutes to reach a target. More common times would be about a minute.

The latest version of the U.S. anti-radiation missile, the 800 pound AGM-88D, uses GPS so that the missile, which normally homes in on radar transmissions, can be used to attack targets by location alone. MAR-1 uses a similar system. The AGM-88 moves at high speed (2,200 kilometers an hour, or 36 kilometers a minute) to hit targets 100 kilometers away. This version of the AGM-88 costs less than $100,000 each. The standard version uses more complex sensors which can detect and guide the missile to a wide variety of radar signals. These versions cost about $300,000 each. GPS enables HARM (or the aircraft carrying it) to locate a radar when it is turned on, store the GPS location, then go after the target regardless of whether it is turned on or off. MAR-1 has a target radar sensor that can detect signals up to 500 kilometers away.
Another recent model of the traditional version, the AGM-88E, uses a more expensive approach to nailing enemy radars that are turned on briefly, and attempts to avoid destruction by quickly turning off power. The missile, also called the Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missile (AARGM), was developed jointly by U.S. and Italian firms. The original AGM-88 has been in use since the 1980s, and the original 1960s anti- radiation missile quickly evolved into what was called HARM (High Speed Anti-Radiation Missile).

The AGM-88E version defeats the favorite trick of anti-aircraft units, shutting down their radars when they note a HARM is on the way. The AGM-88E remembers where the radar is when it was on, and carries its own high resolution (millimeter wave) radar to make sure it gets the radar. Finally, the AGM-88E can transmit a picture of the target, just before it is hit, so the user can be certain of what was taken out.

[malaymishra123]

Originally Posted by fatman17

if the MAR-1 is inferior as u claim, then why is india "worried" about a miserly 100 missiles and putting so called "pressure" on Brazil to scuttle the contract!!

and please provide examples of french "spiking" potential french-pak deals?

i am waiting!

I dont know and thus wont comment on the capability of the MAR-1 missile, but i would clarify one thing. GoI makes it a point to protest the sale of any equipment sale to Pakistan if it can be used offensively. The keyword is 'offensive'. Thus the protest of GoI should not be construed as a validation of the lethality or lack of it of any platform or equipment.

[ejaz007]

India Stunned as Brazil Sells 100 Advanced Air-to-Surface Missiles to Pakistan
Dated 10/1/2009


The Indian Air Force has taken note of Pakistan's latest acquisition of 100 anti-radiation missiles (ARM) from Brazil. The missile is an air-to-surface weapon used for destroying air defence ground radars Pakistan bought the missiles from Brazil last month.

Brazil's decision to go ahead with the deal at the height of tension in the subcontinent has surprised Indian defence experts.

The missile has a maximum range of 25 km and has a 200 pound warhead. Fired from fighter jets, it seeks and destroys air defence radars even when they are deactivated. Indian officials said that the IAF also has its own ARMs which are capable of meeting the threat. The IAF fighter jets use Russian Kh-31 ARMs with passive homing radar.

These missiles are fitted on top of the line fighter like Su-30 MKI. Brazil had MAR-1 missiles in late 1999s for its Embraer/Aermacchi fighters. There is an interesting tale about the development of the missile which is believed to be a derivative of US AGM-45 Shrike ARM. Shrike ARM was fitted on British Avro Vulcon jets.

During the Falkan waragainst Argentina, a Vulcan developed a snag while returning from a sortie. Brazilian F-5 fighters escorted the aircraft back. The Royal Air Force plane landed at a Brazilian airfield and returned after the technical fault was removed. But the Shrike was held back by the Brazilians. The missile was returned later but not before the Brazilian engineers had taken a “good look” at it.

There is a general belief in Brazil that Mar-1 (Missil Anti-Radiacao 1) was developed out of the episode although little is known about its features. It has an autonomous target search and GPS. Indian officials said the deal signed in December is being closely watched. It came as a surprise as Brazil has close military relations with India.

The two countries had come closer in recent years as part of the South-South cooperation programme. New Delhi has a trilateral co-operation arrangement with Brazil and South Africa. The Indian Air Force had recently purchased Brazilian Embraer executive jets.

India Stunned as Brazil Sells 100 Advanced Air-to-Surface Missiles to Pakistan | India Defence

[blain2]

Originally Posted by roopesh

is there any country which is not providing arms to pak (except India ofcourse)

What kind of a question is this? If the world can provide to India, Pakistan is also entitled to the same.

[phoenix_arisen09]

Originally Posted by PC

"Brazil needs export customers in order to achieve its national goal of re-building its defense industries."
Pakistan apparently is also interested in south africa brazil joint projects such as A-Darter, and ramjet BVR AAM! so why would brazil wanna miss multi 100 million dollars deal with pakistan? mind you India has bigger share in French market be it defence and still it does not stop them from negotiating with pakistan.



oh here we go with indian inferiority superiority complexion. AGM-45? lol what a joke. if you wanna compare MAR-1 then AGM-88E should come to mind and pakistani version is a more advance version of what brazil is using with more extended range and more powerful lock on capability.
dont know why is it first hand reaction of indians to assume all weapons acquired by pakistan are downgraded or some cheap rip off. what a loser mentality.

that really sucks because the topic is "pak MAR-1 acquisition" not a pi contest. And btw Pakistan already has AGM-88 which can be upgraded.

whats your point? that india has accesses to super alien technology AD system and no one can penetrate? and you keep bloodily referring MAR-1 to agm-45 which is not even true at all. lol
The MAR-1 advance version incorporates, "GPS and internal radar technology once detected the missile locks-on and can hit with pinpoint accuracy whether the radar is on or off."
btw here is your sate of super python technology that pretty much failed in georgia-russia war while even a low tech su-25 flew freely in gergian air space and phytons were being fooled by decoys. lol

Interest is something different from permission for actual venture participation.

I dont get it. Its written in previous posts its a derivative of AGM-45 Shrike with incorporation of GPS and IGS so as to overcome the shortfalls of Shrike. And its a better version of the same. So how come any joke? And the thing that beats me is why would Pakistanis buy MAR-1 if they hold AGM-88 which has 150kms range and buy a missile of 25kms range only? Please do explain. Also how come Brazilians are offering you a version of greater range than what they have developed in are using? Any logic? Please do explain with sources and not on mere figment of imagination.


I agree. Kh-31 is redundant here. But Pakistan DOES NOT have AGM-88 and certainly NOT AGM-88E. Even the US Navy does not have the same yet and they will first provide PAF!!!!!!


all techs can be beaten hence the statement it shall be battle of chances who has better luck and reflexes. Please read about IGS and GPS. They can not locate in new search mode if the radar is off and has moved from location. In case of mobile radar which does not need setting up it is easy to move and hence you have chance to get away. The only missile which has still got a better ability is BRITISH ALRAM missile which 'loiters' over the field to beat this problem by parachute and then waits for re-activation of radar to locate it again.

Seems your MAR-1 incorporates technology even Brazilians dont have.

And lastly, you are dependent upon US and European GPS satellites which will be blocked once war between india and pakistan starts. even indian army is dependent upon them but not completely as they are in JV with russia in GLONASS system and as part of that have been putting up their own satellites in addition to Russian satellites. So your GPS is quite useless frankly. We will have effect but not as bad as Pakistan. No pissing contest here.

[phoenix_arisen09]

Originally Posted by fatman17

if the MAR-1 is inferior as u claim, then why is india "worried" about a miserly 100 missiles and putting so called "pressure" on Brazil to scuttle the contract!!

and please provide examples of french "spiking" potential french-pak deals?

i am waiting!

there is NEVER a mention of MAR-1 being useless .... only limited in its range. and only elaboration is of SPYDER vs MAR-1 in which its equal chances both sides due to reasons already mentioned. MAR-1 infact poses a very strong threat to fixed static manil control radars which are located in static locations well behind the front lines. But at the same time the reduced range increases the question of pilot survivability ........

Agosta project ran into turbulence (and it was unofficially attributed to Indian Airlines and Air India acquisition of 70+ ACs) and the speed was picked up after award of contract to Boeing ...... its purely speculative.

Also the deal for MAR-1 has only been finalised with the 108Million USD to be paid will be in loan with Government of Brazil acting as guarantor ...... the delivery schedule is yet to be worked out .......

[hj786]

Sir you are most welcome on this forum if you contribute to interesting discussions. But please, try not make incorrect statements.

You say that MAR-1 relies on GPS, which Pakistan can be cut off from in the event of war, making it inferior to Russian systems. Firstly, you do not know that PAF wull be cut off - it is only a possibility. Secondly, you are forgetting China's satellite system. PAF would have full access to that. PAF can easily re-program MAR-1 to use the Chinese system (ToT is involved).

Those who say MAR-1 is short ranged - PAF version's range is far more than what you state (above 70km) - confirmed by an inside source. That is just the missile - the seeker has been tested to detect out to 500km - that is confirmed on the internet too.

Those who say MAR-1 is just a copy of the old Shrike recovered from Vulcans that made an emergency landing in Brazil - this was posted by somebody on World Affairs Board. A respected American member (may have been highsea - not sure) then replied that Brazil is very advanced in the ARM seeker field, the USA stopped them exporting one of their indigenous ARM seeker designs because it was so advanced some time ago. I have no source, so if you don't believe me I don't care. If you think PAF would spend so much money on something so limited, by all means keep thinking that.

One thing that some people on other websites have been discussing is the possibility of the MAR-1 seeker being mated to a certain Pakistani air launched cruise missile.

[phoenix_arisen09]

Originally Posted by hj786

Sir you are most welcome on this forum if you contribute to interesting discussions. But please, try not make incorrect statements.

You say that MAR-1 relies on GPS, which Pakistan can be cut off from in the event of war, making it inferior to Russian systems. Firstly, you do not know that PAF wull be cut off - it is only a possibility. Secondly, you are forgetting China's satellite system. PAF would have full access to that. PAF can easily re-program MAR-1 to use the Chinese system (ToT is involved).

Those who say MAR-1 is short ranged - PAF version's range is far more than what you state (above 70km) - confirmed by an inside source. That is just the missile - the seeker has been tested to detect out to 500km - that is confirmed on the internet too.

Those who say MAR-1 is just a copy of the old Shrike recovered from Vulcans that made an emergency landing in Brazil - this was posted by somebody on World Affairs Board. A respected American member (may have been highsea - not sure) then replied that Brazil is very advanced in the ARM seeker field, the USA stopped them exporting one of their indigenous ARM seeker designs because it was so advanced some time ago. I have no source, so if you don't believe me I don't care. If you think PAF would spend so much money on something so limited, by all means keep thinking that.

One thing that some people on other websites have been discussing is the possibility of the MAR-1 seeker being mated to a certain Pakistani air launched cruise missile.

actually i have not contended that its inferior to russian system .... i have said GPS services which are currently hosted by US, will be blocked by US in case of confrontation between India and Pakistan for BOTH. We have a compulsory commando course at Junior Leader Wing for all Young Officers of IA where one guy turned up with a GPS and he was asked to shelve it.

There are only 3 systems which are GPS systems existing ie the US GNSS, Russian GLONASS and European Galileo (the latter being in initial developmental stages and GLONASS almost complete with Indo-Russian colaboration)

source from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System

The MAR-1 has not been completely unveiled so far so all tech aspects are awaited, but range has been said about 25 kms and GPS and IGS have inherent flaws for ALL weapons and i have posted a site for same ..... previously. I have only contended that SPYDER has a chance to get away when a forum member speculated in that respect.

I maintain that MAR-1 is a threat to main RADARS which are longer range and static as also to SAM AD units (majority of IA AD units will be at risk). Only 18 batteries of SPYDER shall be inducted and they too are not even 40% safe in ARM scenario. However I had given a good chance to get away as limitations are there that is all.

There was a perception that I trash all Pakistani equipment. No I dont. There is no doubt that Pakistan today has a clear edge over India in cruise and ballistic missiles, in sync with its first use policy. There is no denying it. Its that in terms of patriotism, person misreads and misinterprets posts. I have tried to reason out all along understanding the "sensitivities" Hell I even got after shiv aroor in livefist ........ when he claimed Arjun was great tank ...... am not biased that is all

[AgNoStIc MuSliM]

Originally Posted by phoenix_arisen09

dear fellow posters ....
there is no intention of belittling at all ...... if any hard feelings then i apologise for same.

dear moderators ..... am just having a discussion ...... please do let me know if am unwelcome ..... I had been posting as phoenix80 and wanted to reply but found have been banned ..... for what? I have absolutely no idea .... and without any reason being mentioned and forever banned .... have come to know if anyone has objections to my being here kindly do let know so can move out myself ..... its very unsporting to ban just because you dont like some post. atleast give me a reason

DO NOT create multiple ID's.

If you wish to contest your ban, email the webmaster or use the 'contact us' link.

[tinamou]

Originally Posted by shehbazi2001

Its a far-fetched idea that ARM shall home in on SPYDER instead of its fire-control radar. The parameters of both radars are widely different and this difference is obvious in the scan patterns, frequency bands used, power output, pulse lengths (for pulse radars) etc and the processor of ARM is programmed to recognise various radars through various check parameters.

The ground surveillance radar scans in 360 degrees and even the fire-control radar's main lobe (or main beam) is wider, superior in power output to that of Derby or any missile nose radar because of later's smaller antenna and weaker power supply. Scan patterns are also different. A radar shall scan untill it gets locked on target.

Then comes the trajectories. Trajectories of both missiles are not the same and they may not come even close, not to speak of intercepting each other. ARM may cruise at high altitude and then suddenly dive on its target (one of many possible attack modes of ARM) whereas a SAM usually fires straight to target except may be the S-300 series.

I think in that case the Indians have S-300 PMU2s with a range of 195 kms already.

source: en/wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300P

Also the thing is that given that MAR-1 has limited range of 25 kms, the AD units in India have mainly to worry about OSA-AK mobile systems (which still can switch off and run from site in case of being noticed due to packaged systems ie radar and missiles on BMPs already and no need to set it up separately), the SA-3 Pechora units and finally the main fixed radars ..... the mobile ones have ability to relocate making it very difficult if not impossible to kill.


It leaves PAF at immense risk and please dont claim enhanced range when even the schedule for delivery is not yet known.

Anyways does anyone know when are they likely to be delivered?

[tinamou]

Originally Posted by phoenix_arisen09

Interest is something different from permission for actual venture participation.

I dont get it. Its written in previous posts its a derivative of AGM-45 Shrike with incorporation of GPS and IGS so as to overcome the shortfalls of Shrike. And its a better version of the same. So how come any joke? And the thing that beats me is why would Pakistanis buy MAR-1 if they hold AGM-88 which has 150kms range and buy a missile of 25kms range only? Please do explain. Also how come Brazilians are offering you a version of greater range than what they have developed in are using? Any logic? Please do explain with sources and not on mere figment of imagination.


I agree. Kh-31 is redundant here. But Pakistan DOES NOT have AGM-88 and certainly NOT AGM-88E. Even the US Navy does not have the same yet and they will first provide PAF!!!!!!


all techs can be beaten hence the statement it shall be battle of chances who has better luck and reflexes. Please read about IGS and GPS. They can not locate in new search mode if the radar is off and has moved from location. In case of mobile radar which does not need setting up it is easy to move and hence you have chance to get away. The only missile which has still got a better ability is BRITISH ALRAM missile which 'loiters' over the field to beat this problem by parachute and then waits for re-activation of radar to locate it again.

Seems your MAR-1 incorporates technology even Brazilians dont have.

And lastly, you are dependent upon US and European GPS satellites which will be blocked once war between india and pakistan starts. even indian army is dependent upon them but not completely as they are in JV with russia in GLONASS system and as part of that have been putting up their own satellites in addition to Russian satellites. So your GPS is quite useless frankly. We will have effect but not as bad as Pakistan. No pissing contest here.

yes AGM-88s have not been supplied to PAF, anyways as far as my memory goes. they had demanded the same, especially with post-9/11 enhanced cooperation but they do not tend to come under necessary sales.

Although AMRAAMs have been given strange logic

At present only the US GNASS system is fully operationalised ... GLONASS had shortage of funding for completion but the Russians got indians onboard to complete it and its almost complete.
The European Galileo is still some years off from completion.

I agree. US will deny access of GPS to both India and Pakistan in case of a war. Although I doubt it will effect India as bad as Pakistan in that case.

[tinamou]

Originally Posted by PC

why the heck do indians keep referring MAR-1 with agm-45? like i have said, it kind of reflects their cheap mentality of assuming everything is downgraded stuff when talking of pakistan. first of all. MAR-1 guidance system is very very different from old SEAD missiles such as Agm-45 and old variant of agm-88. i would rather compare this missile with new HARM variants such as 88D and E.



AIR WEAPONS: Brazilian HARM For Pakistan
Tuesday, Dec 09, 2008
Brazil has sold a hundred MAR-1 anti-radiation missiles to Pakistan. The MAR-1 weighs 603 pounds, is 13 feet long and has a max range of 25 kilometers. It has a 200 pound warhead and is used to seek out and destroy air-defense radars. Pakistan paid about $1.1 million for each missile (including training, tech support and spare parts). Top speed of the missile is about a 1,200 kilometers an hour (335 meters a second). At max range, it takes about two minutes to reach a target. More common times would be about a minute.



The AGM-88E version defeats the favorite trick of anti-aircraft units, shutting down their radars when they note a HARM is on the way. The AGM-88E remembers where the radar is when it was on, and carries its own high resolution (millimeter wave) radar to make sure it gets the radar. Finally, the AGM-88E can transmit a picture of the target, just before it is hit, so the user can be certain of what was taken out.

Only in the Block 6 upgrades .... the same are as of now available only to Italy and Germany ....... and maybe Israel .......


But no doubt if PAF is able to penetrate without detection, MAR-1 will do a very serious damage to fixed long range radars

[Growler]

@ tinamou & phoenix_

you both are being delusional about MAR-1 capability and the concept of SEAD which does not depend on lone anti-radiation missile fired like a blind shot. SEAD works in conjection with BVR AGM or CM along with "anti-radiation AGM ofcourse" and both must be timely coordinated inorder to achive perfect SEAD! Pakistan already posess combat proven AGM-154, "HARM soon to be upgraded", H-2, H-4 and soon MAR-1.

The Spider system is not imposibel to kill, while MAR-1 "advance version" prevents the radar to be shut down, mean while the well coordinated BVR AGM takes out Missiles launchers!

In particular, the American AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon is an effective weapon for attacking SAM sites, due to its fairly long standoff range which allows the launching aircraft to avoid being threatened by all but the longest range missiles, and its relatively large area of destruction against soft targets.

The AGM-154A traditionally gets used for SEAD missions.