Brazil to provide 100 missiles to Pakistan

[Munir]

The Brazil deal was almost a year ago... Deals with Pakistan are opposite if compared with deals with India. Quiet, good product and well done.

[blain2]

Originally Posted by Mark Sien

PakDef's seniors - i.e. Usman Shabbir, pshamim, H Khan, etc, are the men who accompany Pakistani defence planners and high officials...they stand by their earlier comments about Pak Army getting Saab BAMSE, yet no Saab official or any Western analyst will admit or even know. In fact, I remember the huge noise some German people made when Usman, pshamim, etc, said Pakistan will get U214 submarines back in 2005-2006.

Mark,

Although you are right that much of the information from Pakdef folks is on the ball, however I think this time around we are getting the missile off the shelf. Which is not a bad thing considering that PAF has had a back-up option of using the SD-10 with a different seeker for ARM role. I doubt that for an order of 100 HARMs, Brazilians would throw in the ToT for a know-how that has taken many years and quite a bit of money for them. I think they would like to milk it with sales to others beyond Pakistan. Pakistan buying from them is very good marketing for their product. There are quite a few countries who would love to get their hands on this kind of hardware without having to bother with US stipulations on such sales.

Overall win-win even without ToT.

[blain2]

Originally Posted by Munir

The Brazil deal was almost a year ago... Deals with Pakistan are opposite if compared with deals with India. Quiet, good product and well done.

I agree and hope that this level of secrecy and confidentiality remains in place. Its better when the other side does not see your capability. This is how its always been for Pakistan (if and when we have been able to help it). The problem is that now there is quite a bit of awareness and nosy folks like ourselves are always trying to find out whats going on..www makes things easier as many countries are required to disclose military sales due to their laws.

Over the years, Pakistan has purchased quite a bit of hardware all under the radar. Its best left undisclosed

[Mark Sien]

Originally Posted by blain2

Mark,

Although you are right that much of the information from Pakdef folks is on the ball, however I think this time around we are getting the missile off the shelf. Which is not a bad thing considering that PAF has had a back-up option of using the SD-10 with a different seeker for ARM role. I doubt that for an order of 100 HARMs, Brazilians would throw in the ToT for a know-how that has taken many years and quite a bit of money for them. I think they would like to milk it with sales to others beyond Pakistan. Pakistan buying from them is very good marketing for their product. There are quite a few countries who would love to get their hands on this kind of hardware without having to bother with US stipulations on such sales.

Overall win-win even without ToT.

IMO...when it comes down to sophisticated munitions and weapon-systems, I don't think Pakistan will be willing to export. So whenever I pitch in ToT to things such as A2A missiles or PGBs, I don't expect Pakistan to export such things due to the critical nature of those systems. At the end of the day even our simple JF-17 or old Mirage ROSE could carry those systems and deliver some substantial damage...that has been the centre-goal for Pakistan. So when we think about ToT with regards to Pakistan, in most cases it has little to do with re-export, but more so to ensuring as much technology stays at home and that critical systems can over time be indigenized for maximum security.

Regarding ToT for MAR-1...for all we know it could entail specific cooperation between Mectron and AWC, NESCOM, etc, to assist the latter to develop their own AS-ARM.

[fatman17]

Originally Posted by asaad-ul-islam

There is ToT involved, probably no mention of it. Usman Shabbir is a reliable source, Janes, DefenseNews, AFM, etc all get info from him. how much of a transfer is not known, most likely it's the seeker Pakistan wants.

oh really! he should start his own pay-per-view www. he stands to make a fortune!!!

[fatman17]

Brazilian HARM For Pakistan

December 7, 2008:

Brazil has sold a hundred MAR-1 anti-radiation missiles to Pakistan. The MAR-1 weighs 603 pounds, is 13 feet long and has a max range of 25 kilometers. It has a 200 pound warhead and is used to seek out and destroy air-defense radars. Pakistan paid about $1.1 million for each missile (including training, tech support and spare parts). Top speed of the missile is about a 1,200 kilometers an hour (335 meters a second). At max range, it takes about two minutes to reach a target. More common times would be about a minute.

The latest version of the U.S. anti-radiation missile, the 800 pound AGM-88D, uses GPS so that the missile, which normally homes in on radar transmissions, can be used to attack targets by location alone. MAR-1 uses a similar system. The AGM-88 moves at high speed (2,200 kilometers an hour, or 36 kilometers a minute) to hit targets 100 kilometers away. This version of the AGM-88 costs less than $100,000 each. The standard version uses more complex sensors which can detect and guide the missile to a wide variety of radar signals. These versions cost about $300,000 each. GPS enables HARM (or the aircraft carrying it) to locate a radar when it is turned on, store the GPS location, then go after the target regardless of whether it is turned on or off. MAR-1 has a target radar sensor that can detect signals up to 500 kilometers away.

Another recent model of the traditional version, the AGM-88E, uses a more expensive approach to nailing enemy radars that are turned on briefly, and attempts to avoid destruction by quickly turning off power. The missile, also called the Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missile (AARGM), was developed jointly by U.S. and Italian firms. The original AGM-88 has been in use since the 1980s, and the original 1960s anti- radiation missile quickly evolved into what was called HARM (High Speed Anti-Radiation Missile).

The AGM-88E version defeats the favorite trick of anti-aircraft units, shutting down their radars when they note a HARM is on the way. The AGM-88E remembers where the radar is when it was on, and carries its own high resolution (millimeter wave) radar to make sure it gets the radar. Finally, the AGM-88E can transmit a picture of the target, just before it is hit, so the user can be certain of what was taken out. Currently, there are orders for over 2,000 of these missiles from the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps, Italy and Germany. Production began last year, on what appears to be an endless line of HARM variants. Many other countries, like Brazil, build anti-radiation missiles, but the capabilities of these missiles varies considerably.

[Tikuna]

I know that nobody here has raised doubts about it, but decided post
for the curious.

According to sources, is very close to completion the sale of MAR-1 for
a European customer, it would finally no doubt about the performance of the missile.

[Mark Sien]

Originally Posted by fatman17

oh really! he should start his own pay-per-view www. he stands to make a fortune!!!

H Khan is mentioned in this article:
Pakistan Spending Falls With Economy - Defense News

H Khan is again mentioned here:
Pakistan Eyes Boost in Transport, Lift - Defense News

Usman Shabbir is mentioned here:
Pakistan Pushes To Improve Missile Strike Capability - Defense News

[CaptainKidd]

“Anti-radiation missiles” are designed to find, home in on, and destroy enemy air defense radars; they are often carried by specialist aircraft that accompany air strikes to perform the SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) mission. In December 2008, Brazil’s government approved a $108 million April 2008 contract with Pakistan for 100 of Mectron’s MAR-1 anti-radiation missiles. DID sources add that the deal needed the Brazilian government’s loan guarantee to become effective.

In contrast with other Mectron Engenharia missiles, such as the MAA-1 SRAAM or the forthcoming A-Darter partnership, Mectron appears to be working hard to avoid publicity for the MAR-1. The firm would not even acknowledge the missile’s existence for many years, and details remain sketchy. Pictures like this one show a MAR-1 that appears to be similar in size to counterparts like Raytheon’s AGM-88 HARM, and has a reported range of 25 km when launched from an altitude of about 33,000 feet/ 10 km. Testing appears to have ended, and it will equip Brazil’s upgraded AMX and F-5BR aircraft once it is accepted into service.

The recent massacre perpetrated in Mumbai, India has complicated Brazil’s approval announcement. As attention is drawn to the role Pakistan’s intelligence agency has played in this and other attacks, Brazil’s Defense Minister Nelson Jobim has been forced to respond: “Brazil negotiates with Pakistan, not with Pakistani terrorists… To cancel this deal would be to attribute terrorist activities to the Pakistani government.”

Brazil’s friends in India are already doing that, of course. On the other hand, Brazil needs export customers in order to achieve its national goal of re-building its defense industries. Jobim has been quoted as saying that the deal will allow Mectron to increase its production from 1 missile per month to 5 missiles. A sale to Pakistan, followed by integration into a platform like the Pakistani-Chinese JF-17 lightweight fighter, could also open up a number of new markets for Mectron.

[Super Falcon]

please provide official link for this deal. why always india ask other countries not to sell arms to pak the asked russia, belgium and now brazil and in future america why russia not ask india are you with us or with america why india is stuck between russian and american does russia dont want more exporters for its arms russia should ask india that if you buy n america arms we dell our arms to pak to balance our loss. what news about darter missile

[metalfalcon]

Thread already exists

[Super Falcon]

so in which fighter jet paf will be usig this

[fatman17]

Originally Posted by Mark Sien

H Khan is mentioned in this article:
Pakistan Spending Falls With Economy - Defense News

H Khan is again mentioned here:
Pakistan Eyes Boost in Transport, Lift - Defense News

Usman Shabbir is mentioned here:
Pakistan Pushes To Improve Missile Strike Capability - Defense News

my intention was not to degrade or deride these guys! i am sure they have solid info banks / sources!

its all about how we use it to our advantage!

[fatman17]

A sale to Pakistan, followed by integration into a platform like the Pakistani-Chinese JF-17 lightweight fighter, could also open up a number of new markets for Mectron.

excellent forward thinking!!!

[Mark Sien]

Now Pakistan has hard relations with both Denel and Mectron, funny that these two companies are the principle partners of the A-Darter 5th generation WVRAAM. Just note the similarity between JF-17's HMDS (shown during PAF documentary) and Denel Archer:

JF-17 HMDS:
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1130/jf17hmdsxg0.jpg

Denel Archer HMDS:
http://www.cumulus.co.za/Images/SfixwingPR.jpg

The advantage of Pakistan joining the A-Darter project is that, regardless of whether the Brazilians or South Africans choose to equip their fighters...fact is no less than 250 JF-17s will use A-Darter.

It'd be sweet if Pakistan also joined the Denel T-Darter ramjet BVRAAM project:
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpos...47&postcount=1