Brazil to provide 100 missiles to Pakistan

[XYON]

Originally Posted by Mark Sien

Now Pakistan has hard relations with both Denel and Mectron, funny that these two companies are the principle partners of the A-Darter 5th generation WVRAAM. Just note the similarity between JF-17's HMDS (shown during PAF documentary) and Denel Archer:

JF-17 HMDS:
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1130/jf17hmdsxg0.jpg

Denel Archer HMDS:
http://www.cumulus.co.za/Images/SfixwingPR.jpg

The advantage of Pakistan joining the A-Darter project is that, regardless of whether the Brazilians or South Africans choose to equip their fighters...fact is no less than 250 JF-17s will use A-Darter.

It'd be sweet if Pakistan also joined the Denel T-Darter ramjet BVRAAM project:
PakDef Forums - View Single Post - The Darter Business - Denel unveils T-Darter

The problem with Denel/ ARMSCOR in particular and South Africa in general is that on one hand they do make good stuff for our defense needs but their Parliamentarian National Committee of Arms Sales is dominated and influenced by Indian-descent South Africans who generally refuse Export License for Pakistan for obvious reasons. recent case-and-point is the blockage of the likely export license for the simple 40mm AGL sale to the Army. Brazilians on the other hand do not have this problem and direct influence of the Indian intelligentsia on their national policy issues. The Indian influense on south African defense equipment sales to Pakistan is also the reason that until to-date South Africa has not been able to sell anything major to the Pakistan defense forces. Therefore, the South Africans are now being looked upon doubtfully by the Pakistan Defense set-up.

[Growler]

Originally Posted by epool

The problem with Denel/ ARMSCOR in particular and South Africa in general is that on one hand they do make good stuff for our defense needs but their Parliamentarian National Committee of Arms Sales is dominated and influenced by Indian-descent South Africans who generally refuse Export License for Pakistan for obvious reasons. recent case-and-point is the blockage of the likely export license for the simple 40mm AGL sale to the Army. Brazilians on the other hand do not have this problem and direct influence of the Indian intelligentsia on their national policy issues. The Indian influense on south African defense equipment sales to Pakistan is also the reason that until to-date South Africa has not been able to sell anything major to the Pakistan defense forces. Therefore, the South Africans are now being looked upon doubtfully by the Pakistan Defense set-up.

well as for RSA-India relation ship i can tell you that it is no where close to Indian strong hold in US lobby. majority of indian-africans are 10+ generation of muslim indians and they love africa more then they do india. and good thing RSA or brazil has no "JEWS" lobby so we are safe..

[Super Falcon]

rsa is south africa

[Mark Sien]

Originally Posted by epool

The problem with Denel/ ARMSCOR in particular and South Africa in general is that on one hand they do make good stuff for our defense needs but their Parliamentarian National Committee of Arms Sales is dominated and influenced by Indian-descent South Africans who generally refuse Export License for Pakistan for obvious reasons. recent case-and-point is the blockage of the likely export license for the simple 40mm AGL sale to the Army. Brazilians on the other hand do not have this problem and direct influence of the Indian intelligentsia on their national policy issues. The Indian influense on south African defense equipment sales to Pakistan is also the reason that until to-date South Africa has not been able to sell anything major to the Pakistan defense forces. Therefore, the South Africans are now being looked upon doubtfully by the Pakistan Defense set-up.

According to you, Brazil would be as much of an issue as South Africa when it comes to Indian pressure. Forget 10th generation Africans of Indian descent - many of them Muslim and quite neutral based on my professional and academic experience BTW - but India has hard commercial deals with Brazil. In fact, in terms of defence relations India has much better relations with Brazil than Pakistan does.

I think this issue of raising India in every topic is pointless and weak. The Indians didn't scare the French from offering the Marlin to Pakistan; the Indians failed block $9bn U.S. worth of arms from U.S. to Pakistan; the Indo-Israeli nexus didn't do much in Germany and Sweden; the Indian FTA with Turkey didn't stop Aselsan, Yonca, etc. For God's sake this is ridiculous, I have shown the visible results of RSA-Pak relationship in the images above...in fact they may even be helping with our Mirage upgrades nowadays on top of the fact that they can show their faces at IDEAS 2006 & 2008 and openly answer questions regarding their missile offers to the Pak Forces.

As for those African Indians...I for one can tell you that several of our own military officers whose parents are of that background.

[Kharian_Beast]

Money knows no boundaries gentleman.

[maximus]

^^ Absolutely. At the end of the day, it's all about the money.

[maximus]

Originally Posted by epool

The problem with Denel/ ARMSCOR in particular and South Africa in general is that on one hand they do make good stuff for our defense needs but their Parliamentarian National Committee of Arms Sales is dominated and influenced by Indian-descent South Africans who generally refuse Export License for Pakistan for obvious reasons. recent case-and-point is the blockage of the likely export license for the simple 40mm AGL sale to the Army. Brazilians on the other hand do not have this problem and direct influence of the Indian intelligentsia on their national policy issues. The Indian influense on south African defense equipment sales to Pakistan is also the reason that until to-date South Africa has not been able to sell anything major to the Pakistan defense forces. Therefore, the South Africans are now being looked upon doubtfully by the Pakistan Defense set-up.

I wonder what other major defence equipment we can purchase from RSA apart from helos and missiles? RSA hasn't got much else to offer. As far as those two items are concerned, Pakistan has shown willingness and is still in the process of decision making. RSA has also made no objections and in fact already showcased their goodies in Pakistan. Besides, defence deals require time. Just look at the Indian MRCA tender... Indian pressure is just totally misplaced. India has zero influence on RSA.

[Kharian_Beast]

Originally Posted by maximus

I wonder what other major defence equipment we can purchase from RSA apart from helos and missiles? RSA hasn't got much else to offer. As far as those two items are concerned, Pakistan has shown willingness and is still in the process of decision making. RSA has also made no objections and in fact already showcased their goodies in Pakistan. Besides, defence deals require time. Just look at the Indian MRCA tender... Indian pressure is just totally misplaced. India has zero influence on RSA.

No doubt the best they have to offer is already being closely examined. I am also a fan of the G6 self propelled howitzer.

[XYON]

Originally Posted by maximus

I wonder what other major defence equipment we can purchase from RSA apart from helos and missiles? RSA hasn't got much else to offer. As far as those two items are concerned, Pakistan has shown willingness and is still in the process of decision making. RSA has also made no objections and in fact already showcased their goodies in Pakistan. Besides, defense deals require time. Just look at the Indian MRCA tender... Indian pressure is just totally misplaced. India has zero influence on RSA.

South Africa manufactures a lot of major stuff that is useful to Pakistan. For starters, once of the major on-going deals is the G6 Self-Propelled Howitzer as indicated by Kharian_Beast! In the past we have also tried to acquire 140mm G2 ammunition from them but owing to the Commonwealth embargo, the permissions were not granted. India was most active, after UK in having the Commonwealth embargo apply on Pakistan. RSA most certainly has an Indian lobby and a big one at that, and it looks after the interest of India when the time comes to sell to Pakistan. Showcasing goodies at IDEAS 2008 does not amplify the actual problems with politics in RSA. Of course the manufacturers want to sell and we want to buy, but realistically speaking we have not yet achieved a trustworthy relationship with RSA in defense equipment. Yes they also did the air-air refueling for the Mirages and have done some minor projects with AWC from time to time.

The purchase of G-6 Howitzer by the Pakistan Army, if allowed by the RSA will be the real test of RSA neutrality in such sales. Let us see.

And Mark Sien, you are right to the point that India is not that influential to obstruct every defense deal that Pakistan makes but they most certainly try their best in every way to block at whatever level that they can. Case-and-Point is the request for information by the Indian Chancery in Brazil to the Brazil Government on details of the missile deal with Pakistan. Now what is the business of Indians poking their nose in such matters if they are not intrusive? Trust me we are not superstitious about Indian interference, its just the way it is! Russian reluctance to sell Mi-35 gunships to Pakistan is another example of Indian negative influence!

Indeed at the end of the day its about money and who is willing to spend it the most to do what has to be done!

[Mark Sien]

And Mark Sien, you are right to the point that India is not that influential to obstruct every defense deal that Pakistan makes but they most certainly try their best in every way to block at whatever level that they can. Case-and-Point is the request for information by the Indian Chancery in Brazil to the Brazil Government on details of the missile deal with Pakistan. Now what is the business of Indians poking their nose in such matters if they are not intrusive? Trust me we are not superstitious about Indian interference, its just the way it is! Russian reluctance to sell Mi-35 gunships to Pakistan is another example of Indian negative influence!

I don't think it matters, India doesn't even need to go public with its requests...if it's commercial ties were critical, then this is a non-issue. I think this whole business of blocking other deals with commercial clout is a limited. With the case of Russia, much of their blockage really occurs under the table, and simply the Russians tell Pakistan to look elsewhere before we can even ask. However looking at South Africa, the fact is that they're making a commercial effort through events such as IDEAS, and appear to be assisting Pakistan under the table - i.e. JF-17's HMDS.

We have to ask ourselves...what is RSA trying to gain by siding with India? Greater legitimacy to democracy? U.S., Germany and Sweden don't care. Commercial ties perhaps? Well Pakistan is building itself to become a commercial hub and transit to China and Central Asia...whether it happens in this decade or in a couple of decades, it is an approaching fact. Let's bar Gwadar and economics, we know that many JF-17s are to be produced, and if RSA wants to play rough - then we can double the coin when others want to equip this fighter. Behind Pakistan is the fact that China too is looking to develop its weapon-systems, for all we know - especially after seeing PL-ASR - that there's some unknown multi-lateral cooperation.

Even India's influence in Russia is starting to wane.

[maximus]

Originally Posted by epool

South Africa manufactures a lot of major stuff that is useful to Pakistan. For starters, once of the major on-going deals is the G6 Self-Propelled Howitzer as indicated by Kharian_Beast! In the past we have also tried to acquire 140mm G2 ammunition from them but owing to the Commonwealth embargo, the permissions were not granted. India was most active, after UK in having the Commonwealth embargo apply on Pakistan. RSA most certainly has an Indian lobby and a big one at that, and it looks after the interest of India when the time comes to sell to Pakistan. Showcasing goodies at IDEAS 2008 does not amplify the actual problems with politics in RSA. Of course the manufacturers want to sell and we want to buy, but realistically speaking we have not yet achieved a trustworthy relationship with RSA in defense equipment. Yes they also did the air-air refueling for the Mirages and have done some minor projects with AWC from time to time.

The purchase of G-6 Howitzer by the Pakistan Army, if allowed by the RSA will be the real test of RSA neutrality in such sales. Let us see.

And Mark Sien, you are right to the point that India is not that influential to obstruct every defense deal that Pakistan makes but they most certainly try their best in every way to block at whatever level that they can. Case-and-Point is the request for information by the Indian Chancery in Brazil to the Brazil Government on details of the missile deal with Pakistan. Now what is the business of Indians poking their nose in such matters if they are not intrusive? Trust me we are not superstitious about Indian interference, its just the way it is! Russian reluctance to sell Mi-35 gunships to Pakistan is another example of Indian negative influence!

Indeed at the end of the day its about money and who is willing to spend it the most to do what has to be done!

Beg to differ. I don't believe that India has much influence over RSA. We have already witnessed Indian humiliation in the Russian engine deal. They couldn't even prevent their major weapons supplier to halt the deal. It's money that talks. Whether RSA is reluctant for whatever odd reason is another issue all together. I'm positive that the missile deal will go through if PAF decides to go for it. I agree that the Indians have a bad habit of indulging in Pakistani matters. It's ironic to say the least, considering the Indians always boast about their superiority etc.

[XYON]

Originally Posted by Mark Sien

I don't think it matters, India doesn't even need to go public with its requests...if it's commercial ties were critical, then this is a non-issue. I think this whole business of blocking other deals with commercial clout is a limited. With the case of Russia, much of their blockage really occurs under the table, and simply the Russians tell Pakistan to look elsewhere before we can even ask. However looking at South Africa, the fact is that they're making a commercial effort through events such as IDEAS, and appear to be assisting Pakistan under the table - i.e. JF-17's HMDS.

We have to ask ourselves...what is RSA trying to gain by siding with India? Greater legitimacy to democracy? U.S., Germany and Sweden don't care. Commercial ties perhaps? Well Pakistan is building itself to become a commercial hub and transit to China and Central Asia...whether it happens in this decade or in a couple of decades, it is an approaching fact. Let's bar Gwadar and economics, we know that many JF-17s are to be produced, and if RSA wants to play rough - then we can double the coin when others want to equip this fighter. Behind Pakistan is the fact that China too is looking to develop its weapon-systems, for all we know - especially after seeing PL-ASR - that there's some unknown multi-lateral cooperation.

Even India's influence in Russia is starting to wane.

First, I am glad that you have also accepted that 'influences' are there whether over or under the table! Secondly, defense deals are carried out in a fixed time frame, influences if any are only judged in that fixed bracket of the validity of that deal. The only way to negate any unwanted influence is to continue over a period of time to market your products to the customer and really and at the end of the day hope for the best.

[XYON]

sorry for the duplication! pressed the submit button twice! my bad

[XYON]

Originally Posted by maximus

Beg to differ. I don't believe that India has much influence over RSA. We have already witnessed Indian humiliation in the Russian engine deal. It's money that talks. Whether RSA is reluctant for whatever odd reason is another issue all together. I'm positive that the missile deal will go through if PAF decides to go for it. I agree that the Indians have a bad habit of indulging in Pakistani matters. It's ironic to say the least, considering the Indians always boast about their superiority etc.

I respect your opinion but let us wait and see where does the G6 deal end up. I can most certainly tell you however that South Africans have so far not approved the Export License to sell the Denel 40mm AGL to Pak Army and that is a very minor item compared to the G6.

Taste of the pudding lies in the eating, we have just ordered the pudding from the RSA menu, lets see if the kitchen delivers!

[maximus]

Originally Posted by epool

I respect your opinion but let us wait and see where does the G6 deal end up. I can most certainly tell you however that South Africans have so far not approved the Export License to sell the Denel 40mm AGL to Pak Army and that is a very minor item compared to the G6.

Taste of the pudding lies in the eating, we have just ordered the pudding from the RSA menu, lets see if the kitchen delivers!

I agree. It would be too premature to jump the gun. Time will tell whether a healthy defence relation between Pakistan and RSA can prosper. I'm quite optimistic.

The Brazilian missile deal is a good one though! The seeker is priceless and Pakistan can tweak the range of the missile which already has a respective 75km range. Perhaps even integrate the seeker into Ra'ad and other missiles. Another piece of weaponry that can be mounted to the JF-17 for SEAD missions!