Brazil to provide 100 missiles to Pakistan

[Tomahawk]

Originally Posted by Super Falcon

is spyder missile is more superior than brazillian missile system

Here is a pic of Spyder Missile System

The Two Missiles in the center are Python 5 and the two on the outside are Derby Missiles.

The Surface-to-Air Python & Derby Air Defense System (SPYDER) is a quick reaction, low level missile system designed to successfully counter attacks by fixed and rotary wing aircraft, missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). It can launch both Derby medium range active radar seeker missile and Python 5 advanced dual waveband IR short range missile.

The SPYDER provides highly deployable air defense capability covering 360° during day, night and adverse weather conditions engaging multiple threats simultaneously. It features two engagement modes: Lock-On-Before Launch (LOBL) (fire and forget capability) and Lock-On-After Launch (LOAL) (fire and update capability).

The SPYDER can engage targets from 1 to 15 kilometers flying at altitudes between 20 and 9,000 meters. It is suitable for high value assets defense as well as to provide area air defense to front-line military units.

A typical SPYDER squadron consists of one mobile command and control unit (CCU) and four mobile firing units (MFU). The CCU carries Elta EL/M 2106 ATAR 3D surveillance radar which can simultaneously track up to 60 targets.


Now MAR-1 is an anti-radiation missile, whose primary fuction is to destroy the enemy's air defence radar. Im sure PAF must have selected the MAR-1 taking into account the pros & cons. I mean for a system like Spyder it would not be easy to tackle MAR-1, systems like spyder can efficiently tackle the ordinary air to ground missile, and that is the reason for having an anti-radiation missile like MAR-1 so that they can clean out the enemy's air defence system, because in war-time once the air defence radars are wiped out in any particular area then it would be much easiar for PAF to perform a special mission of destroying the enemy's high valued ground facilities (air to ground missions) in that particular area.

[Kharian_Beast]

Originally Posted by Super Falcon

is spyder missile is more superior than brazillian missile system

I think you are confusing the missiles. Spyder is used for air defense to protect ground assets against missiles and aircraft up to 15 kilometers away and 9k meters in the air. MAR 1 can be shot from 50 km away and take out vital radars and installations, leaving holes in ad coverage all over enemy territory. This missile pretty much can be configured to take out anything with a radar on the ground, and Spyder system uses radar.

The real question is when does delivery take place?

[wartibet]

Brass air fittings
Now that is kkkkkkkkkk

[Super Falcon]

thanx for correcting me does israel sold it too india

[phoenix80]

well the MAR-1 deal was certainly a surprise to India in terms of Brazil providing to a "hostile" country keeping in view the close defence cooperation in R&D between the two. But its nothing to be ruffled over.

MAR-1 is the Brazilian version of AGM-45 Shrike (used till 1992 by US and thereafter by Israel ONLY). It was an offshoot development from a recovered Shrike from RAF Vulcan during Falkland war which was damaged. The only added feature is that it has memory for remembering location of radars after they have switched off. So it tends to home in nevertheless. Its main negative point is that of range - reportedly 25 kms.

India Stunned as Brazil Sells 100 Advanced Air-to-Surface Missiles to Pakistan | India Defence

The IAF is using Kh-31A and Kh-31P which are licensed produced locally with ranges of 70-110 kms (both at either spectrum of range).

Kh-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, the ARM purchased does tend to put Indian fixed AD sites into jeopardy ... especially the older variants. The mobile ones are difficult to kill due to mobility.

As for acquisition and induction of Spyder by IA and IAF and MAR-1 by PAF ... it is about getting lucky. The systems are mobile and as such after painting the incoming AC, the radar can be switched off leaving missiles with built in active Radar (Derby) and Infra-Red Seekers (Pyhton) to fend for their selves. In that case the option of attacking pilot is to protect self as the ARM will seek out incoming active radar of Derby and NOT the main radar. Its a match of chances. I dont think MAR-1 significantly enhances PAF abilities as claimed. The only thing is no one else was willing to offer PAF ARM missiles and india was rudely surprised by Brazilian act. Its not a threat of great import. Posting a site showing the Spyder system on TATRA vehicle. Its the Indian configuration although not said so at the site

http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/ar...=186&docID=704

SPYDER Surface-to-Air Python 5 and Derby Air Defence Missile System - Army Technology

[roopesh]

is there any country which is not providing arms to pak (except India ofcourse)

[phoenix80]

I have posted the sites as the discussion has been over MAR-1 and its abilities and of Spyder system. Thought out discussion would be welcome based on facts and not jingoism please.

[phoenix80]

Originally Posted by roopesh

is there any country which is not providing arms to pak (except India ofcourse)

roopesh, the missile is an attempt by Brazil to secure a place in defence market. the delivery will be an interesting issue as India has been known to scuttle previous contracts of Pakistan. The fact that India intends to induct upto 12 new Embrarer based AEWs offhand which is minimum 20 times the present deal, can be great temptation for Brazil to back out from its obligation. Its something like spiking french offers to pakistan by using Civil Aircraft deal. The Agosta sub deal went thru only post award of contract to Boeing.

[phoenix80]

Originally Posted by roopesh

is there any country which is not providing arms to pak (except India ofcourse)

i infact implore OFB here to supply arms and ammunition to PA ...... our quality is soo good ...... atleast PA can also suffer the consequences

[Keysersoze]

Dude your post seems to show that you do not have a understanding of how ARM work. And their potential targets....which include SAM sites and also "mobile" radars have to stop and set up in order to work...they then give out radiation which the missile homes in on.

Oh for your information PAF already has used the shrike so why would they opt for something only marginally better?

[shchinese]

Originally Posted by roopesh

is there any country which is not providing arms to pak (except India ofcourse)

Pakistan developed its own MBT and modern fighters with China, now Pakistan can modify them or build as many as they want.

please tell me what MBT/fighter India is using? whether India can do any real big modification to its designs? whether India could freely build as many as possible?

[phoenix80]

Originally Posted by Keysersoze

Dude your post seems to show that you do not have a understanding of how ARM work. And their potential targets....which include SAM sites and also "mobile" radars have to stop and set up in order to work...they then give out radiation which the missile homes in on.

Oh for your information PAF already has used the shrike so why would they opt for something only marginally better?

Perhaps I may not have an understanding of an anti-radiation missile

An ARM is designed to move against a specific RADAR after pinpointing its locality from the EMP and other Electronic Signatures given out by the same. While the 1st generation ARM was beaten by the radar operators shutting off their radars and the missile losing the homing beacon, the present generation has inertial guidance as also "memory" to recal the location of a radar even inspite of it being swithced off and as such uses the GPS and topographical data obtained from satellite to be guided to its target.

Now Shrike was the 1st generation based missile effective against static and immobile targets ie fixed Radar sites. The MAR-1 is based on improvement in targetting parameters by incorporating IGS and GPS. Now SPYDER is a mobile system based upon ready to use Radars which have to be just switced on to achieve "target painting" and then launching the missiles ie Derby and Python towards the target and one can switch off the primary radar as the former ie Derby has an active RADAR of its own to seek out the AC and Python is on IR so it tracks the heat signature of AC. Now the RADAR operator can at the time of switching off the RADAR also request the driver to drive a bit distance away. Even 10 meters will make a difference in effectively killing a RADAR and damaging it or altogether surviving a counter ARM attack. And that is an SOP in AD units I assure you.

At the same time the pilot will be busy trying to save his own AC as in either case his ARM will be confused by airborne source of radiations viz from Derby's active RADAR and there shall be a change in target to seek and destroy the source. Its the same principle to beat an IR SAM, use of flares to give an alternative source of IR signature.

Now you mean to elaborate that a RADAR operator in SPYDER which is highly mobile and NOT FIXED STATIC unit, will be so daft as not to move from his location? Its like the shoot and scoot used by arty units to beat the gun locating radars!!!!!

I have conceeded its a threat to static and older versions of SAM batteries but you are way out of league if you think Spyder has danger. Its a battle of chance in this case, lucky if you get a hit.

Now I shall give you a post so that you can see why I am limited by my ability or lack of it to understand why MAR-1 is superior.

Anti-radiation missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its in simplest of forms and I failed. Kindly do help me where I am wrong.

[phoenix80]

Originally Posted by shchinese

Pakistan developed its own MBT and modern fighters with China, now Pakistan can modify them or build as many as they want.

please tell me what MBT/fighter India is using? whether India can do any real big modification to its designs? whether India could freely build as many as possible?

yes I agree and its an achievement. forget using the resources to develop the country, just develop things to destroy it great policy.

we have to courage to go it alone on projects and trash them. indian missile system is one. we trashed Trishul as it was useless in the end. pakistan just sold nuclear tech to korea to get their missiles. great R&D i must say. And i love the tanks you have ..... yet to be seen in battle ...... though!!! we work in commensurate with our economic growth. go for things you can afford and forget what you cant for now. big deal.

[Growler]

Originally Posted by phoenix80

well the MAR-1 deal was certainly a surprise to India in terms of Brazil providing to a "hostile" country keeping in view the close defence cooperation in R&D between the two. But its nothing to be ruffled over.

"Brazil needs export customers in order to achieve its national goal of re-building its defense industries."
Pakistan apparently is also interested in south africa brazil joint projects such as A-Darter, and ramjet BVR AAM! so why would brazil wanna miss multi 100 million dollars deal with pakistan? mind you India has bigger share in French market be it defence and still it does not stop them from negotiating with pakistan.

MAR-1 is the Brazilian version of AGM-45 Shrike (used till 1992 by US and thereafter by Israel ONLY). It was an offshoot development from a recovered Shrike from RAF Vulcan during Falkland war which was damaged. The only added feature is that it has memory for remembering location of radars after they have switched off. So it tends to home in nevertheless. Its main negative point is that of range - reportedly 25 kms.

oh here we go with indian inferiority superiority complexion. AGM-45? lol what a joke. if you wanna compare MAR-1 then AGM-88E should come to mind and pakistani version is a more advance version of what brazil is using with more extended range and more powerful lock on capability.
dont know why is it first hand reaction of indians to assume all weapons acquired by pakistan are downgraded or some cheap rip off. what a loser mentality.

India Stunned as Brazil Sells 100 Advanced Air-to-Surface Missiles to Pakistan | India Defence

The IAF is using Kh-31A and Kh-31P which are licensed produced locally with ranges of 70-110 kms (both at either spectrum of range).

Kh-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

that really sucks because the topic is "pak MAR-1 acquisition" not a pi$sing contest. And btw Pakistan already has AGM-88 which can be upgraded.

However, the ARM purchased does tend to put Indian fixed AD sites into jeopardy ... especially the older variants. The mobile ones are difficult to kill due to mobility.

thats really dumb of you to say. lol
Anyways, Keysersoze has really summed it up for you in his post.

As for acquisition and induction of Spyder by IA and IAF and MAR-1 by PAF ... it is about getting lucky. The systems are mobile and as such after painting the incoming AC, the radar can be switched off leaving missiles with built in active Radar (Derby) and Infra-Red Seekers (Pyhton) to fend for their selves. In that case the option of attacking pilot is to protect self as the ARM will seek out incoming active radar of Derby and NOT the main radar. Its a match of chances. I dont think MAR-1 significantly enhances PAF abilities as claimed. The only thing is no one else was willing to offer PAF ARM missiles and india was rudely surprised by Brazilian act. Its not a threat of great import. Posting a site showing the Spyder system on TATRA vehicle. Its the Indian configuration although not said so at the site

whats your point? that india has accesses to super alien technology AD system and no one can penetrate? and you keep bloodily referring MAR-1 to agm-45 which is not even true at all. lol
The MAR-1 advance version incorporates, "GPS and internal radar technology once detected the missile locks-on and can hit with pinpoint accuracy whether the radar is on or off."
btw here is your sate of super python technology that pretty much failed in georgia-russia war while even a low tech su-25 flew freely in gergian air space and phytons were being fooled by decoys. lol

YouTube - Wreckage of Israeli missile Python 4 in Osetia

YouTube - Wreckage of Israeli missile Python 4 in Osetia

[shehbazi2001]

Originally Posted by phoenix80

Perhaps I may not have an understanding of an anti-radiation missile

An ARM is designed to move against a specific RADAR after pinpointing its locality from the EMP and other Electronic Signatures given out by the same. While the 1st generation ARM was beaten by the radar operators shutting off their radars and the missile losing the homing beacon, the present generation has inertial guidance as also "memory" to recal the location of a radar even inspite of it being swithced off and as such uses the GPS and topographical data obtained from satellite to be guided to its target.

Now Shrike was the 1st generation based missile effective against static and immobile targets ie fixed Radar sites. The MAR-1 is based on improvement in targetting parameters by incorporating IGS and GPS. Now SPYDER is a mobile system based upon ready to use Radars which have to be just switced on to achieve "target painting" and then launching the missiles ie Derby and Python towards the target and one can switch off the primary radar as the former ie Derby has an active RADAR of its own to seek out the AC and Python is on IR so it tracks the heat signature of AC. Now the RADAR operator can at the time of switching off the RADAR also request the driver to drive a bit distance away. Even 10 meters will make a difference in effectively killing a RADAR and damaging it or altogether surviving a counter ARM attack. And that is an SOP in AD units I assure you.

At the same time the pilot will be busy trying to save his own AC as in either case his ARM will be confused by airborne source of radiations viz from Derby's active RADAR and there shall be a change in target to seek and destroy the source. Its the same principle to beat an IR SAM, use of flares to give an alternative source of IR signature.

Now you mean to elaborate that a RADAR operator in SPYDER which is highly mobile and NOT FIXED STATIC unit, will be so daft as not to move from his location? Its like the shoot and scoot used by arty units to beat the gun locating radars!!!!!

I have conceeded its a threat to static and older versions of SAM batteries but you are way out of league if you think Spyder has danger. Its a battle of chance in this case, lucky if you get a hit.

Now I shall give you a post so that you can see why I am limited by my ability or lack of it to understand why MAR-1 is superior.

Anti-radiation missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its in simplest of forms and I failed. Kindly do help me where I am wrong.

Its a far-fetched idea that ARM shall home in on SPYDER instead of its fire-control radar. The parameters of both radars are widely different and this difference is obvious in the scan patterns, frequency bands used, power output, pulse lengths (for pulse radars) etc and the processor of ARM is programmed to recognise various radars through various check parameters.

The ground surveillance radar scans in 360 degrees and even the fire-control radar's main lobe (or main beam) is wider, superior in power output to that of Derby or any missile nose radar because of later's smaller antenna and weaker power supply. Scan patterns are also different. A radar shall scan untill it gets locked on target.

Then comes the trajectories. Trajectories of both missiles are not the same and they may not come even close, not to speak of intercepting each other. ARM may cruise at high altitude and then suddenly dive on its target (one of many possible attack modes of ARM) whereas a SAM usually fires straight to target except may be the S-300 series.