Who gets to be Caliph?

[The SC]

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Define "truest sense".

Meaning it was just a remnant title left in Turkey not the Muslim world as such.

[The SC]

No brother you are wrong there..Ottomans simply made their eldest sons succeeding caliphs.
List of sultans of the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He means that is how it is supposed to be in Islam, and by not implementing it permanently for the choice of a khalife, and making it hereditary instead, it brought about the end of the caliphate as such, since they (the last khalifs) deviated from the most fundamental, wise and secure way of electing a khalife based on the Sunna and the Koran (wa amrokom Shura bainakom).
Thus the Khalife if need be one should have the highest standards of human qualities, be it a prince or a commoner, a black or a white, an Arab, a Persian or an Asian, his family and people surroundings him should qualify too!
It is no easy task to choose a Khalife or Supreme Leader of the Muslim Ummah, the qualities required are almost superhuman, that is why our prophet Mohammad was considered as the best of the best, not only by his pairs by mostly by god himself choosing him above all others, be it richer or physically stronger, they still lacked the general equilibrium of character, physique and spirit.

[Dreamreaper]

It was the last Caliph who supported in the Treaty of Sevres the idea of Palestine as the Jewish National Home. What does that mean for those Muslims who cry out that Israel is somehow an "illegitimate" state?

You cannot compare "those jews" with "these jews".

The jews of that era only wanted their right to practice their religion and had no claim on the land itself...as in exclusive claim..Inclusive yes.

[Dreamreaper]

He means that is how it is supposed to be in Islam, and by not implementing it permanently for the choice of a khalife, and making it hereditary instead, it brought about the end of the caliphate as such, since they (the last khalifs) deviated from the most fundamental, wise and secure way of electing a khalife based on the Sunna and the Koran (wa amrokom Shura bainakom).
Thus the Khalife if need be one should have the highest standards of human qualities, be it a prince or a commoner, a black or a white, an Arab, a Persian or an Asian, his family and people surroundings him should qualify too!
It is no easy task to choose a Khalife or Supreme Leader of the Muslim Ummah, the qualities required are almost superhuman, that is why our prophet Mohammad was considered as the best of the best, not only by his pairs by mostly by god himself choosing him above all others, be it richer or physically stronger, they still lacked the general equilibrium of character, physique and spirit.

yes..you are right.
when the later generations of Muslims converted caliphate into hereditary kingship,the trouble started.
And that's one of the fundamental difference between caliph and king...
caliph is chosen according to his deeds and character...king is hereditary.

[King Solomon]

yes..you are right.
when the later generations of Muslims converted caliphate into hereditary kingship,the trouble started.
And that's one of the fundamental difference between caliph and king...
caliph is chosen according to his deeds and character...king is hereditary.

Even the caliphates were dynastical rules. Remember umayyad, abbasid, fatmid? All of them were hereditary dynasty.

As I said, it is not the "title" that matters, but what you have inside.

[Dreamreaper]

Even the caliphates were dynastical rules. Remember umayyad, abbasid, fatmid? All of them were hereditary dynasty.

As I said, it is not the "title" that matters, but what you have inside.

no....
that was tribe and clan...not hereditary.

Although them being sons of Pious men,had the ability of becoming caliphs,and a caliph's son is not forbidden to be the successor as long as he has the required abilities.

we declined when we started building Palaces.

At the time of the First four caliphs,Masjid in Medina used to be full of gold and silver but there were no takers.
Such was their resilience against materialism.From top to bottom..The caliph took only that much which the lowest poorest person of his Country had..
That way he knew inside his house from his own experience that what type of difficulties the poor of his country were facing as he himself used to live that life.

when our Caliphs started living in Palaces,they disconnected from the poor and lost the plot.

[King Solomon]

no....
that was tribe and clan...not hereditary.

Although them being sons of Pious men,had the ability of becoming caliphs,and a caliph's son is not forbidden to be the successor as long as he has the required abilities.

That is pre-Islamic thinking. Islam doesn't care who is your father. Just who you are. And there may be many others better than you.

[Dreamreaper]

That is pre-Islamic thinking. Islam doesn't care who is your father. Just who you are. And there may be many others better than you.

No.that was not what i was saying....Caliphate is not hereditary..But if a caliph's son Qualifies due to his own capabilities then its not forbidden for him to be selected the next caliph.

Although insist that the Concept of a caliph is more spiritual than material......
A caliph is a "Walii" the one who has God on his side due to his own Piety and therefore is the Imposer of God's will on Beings.
And a caliph is the one who at all times wants his reward from God,not from people,so he is not greedy of worldly wealth.
This does not mean a caliph does not understand finances,we have proper guidelines on finances in meticulous details in Shariah.....But he does it all as a duty to God and God's creature without ever asking the people for any reward.

[The SC]

That is pre-Islamic thinking. Islam doesn't care who is your father. Just who you are. And there may be many others better than you.

Mr or Ms S-19, your last sentence applies very well to you: "And there may be many others better than you."

[Armstrong]

No.that was not what i was saying....Caliphate is not hereditary..But if a caliph's son Qualifies due to his own capabilities then its not forbidden for him to be selected the next caliph.

Although insist that the Concept of a caliph is more spiritual than material......
A caliph is a "Walii" the one who has God on his side due to his own Piety and therefore is the Imposer of God's will on Beings.
And a caliph is the one who at all times wants his reward from God,not from people,so he is not greedy of worldly wealth.
This does not mean a caliph does not understand finances,we have proper guidelines on finances in meticulous details in Shariah.....But he does it all as a duty to God and God's creature without ever asking the people for any reward.

No he isn't ! What you've essentially described is a watered down version of a medieval Pope ! And a Caliph's role certainly isn't more spiritual than material (or related to governance to be more appropriate) because Islam doesn't have any notion of a clergy class...we are all supposed to be our own priests and in possession of enough knowledge to dispense with our religious obligations in a fitting manner. A Caliph isn't a High Priest and the President rolled into one...he is, ideally, I believe, the Islamic equivalent of what Plato proposed in his 'Republic' - a Philosopher-King ! Which is to say he is a man of impeccable integrity, clarity of thought and a passion for service to his people (you got second part of your post right !). I'm sure some may not agree with me but Jinnah was the modern day equivalent of what a Caliph could be !

[Dreamreaper]

No he isn't ! What you've essentially described is a watered down version of a medieval Pope ! And a Caliph's role certainly isn't more spiritual than material (or related to governance to be more appropriate) because Islam doesn't have any notion of a clergy class...we are all supposed to be our own priests and in possession of enough knowledge to dispense with our religious obligations in a fitting manner. A Caliph isn't a High Priest and the President rolled into one...he is, ideally, I believe, the Islamic equivalent of what Plato proposed in his 'Republic' - a Philosopher-King ! Which is to say he is a man of impeccable integrity, clarity of thought and a passion for service to his people (you got second part of your post right !). I'm sure some may not agree with me but Jinnah was the modern day equivalent of what a Caliph could be !

The caliph is the holder of the Book of Shariah and the imposer of Shariah as the law of the land.And shariah is???

[The SC]

No.that was not what i was saying....Caliphate is not hereditary..But if a caliph's son Qualifies due to his own capabilities then its not forbidden for him to be selected the next caliph.

Although insist that the Concept of a caliph is more spiritual than material......
A caliph is a "Walii" the one who has God on his side due to his own Piety and therefore is the Imposer of God's will on Beings.
And a caliph is the one who at all times wants his reward from God,not from people,so he is not greedy of worldly wealth.
This does not mean a caliph does not understand finances,we have proper guidelines on finances in meticulous details in Shariah.....But he does it all as a duty to God and God's creature without ever asking the people for any reward.

You are speaking the truth till Ali (as) and his assassination, Uthman too suffered the same fate, so there was a need of protection for the khalife, but it went so far as to deviate from the first intent of physical protection, it became palaces and fortresses justified by the quick and swift spread of Islam across enormous masses of land.
So the difference between abu Bakr, Uthman , Omar and Ali (as) and later khalifes was in the numbers, diversity and space they had under their control.
The role and the simple way of life of the khalife should have stayed the same although with more riches for the people the khalife could have benefited too but modestly.
Since it was dangerous to live within people and reign over millions of them, intelligence was implemented to stay aware of the needs of the most needy of the Islamic society, but then khilafat was lost in internal battles for throne power while forgetting what kind of power it was supposed to be according to Islam.

[Dreamreaper]

You are speaking the truth till Ali (as) and his assassination, Uthman too suffered the same fate, so there was a need of protection for the khalife, but it went so far as to deviate completely from the first intent of physical protection , it became palaces and fortresses justified by the quick and swift spread of Islam across enormous masses of land.
So the difference between abu Bakr, Uthman , Omar and Ali (as) and later khalifes was in the numbers, diversity and space they had under their control.
The role and the simple way of life of the khalife should have stayed the same, but since it was dangerous to live within people and reign over millions of them, intelligence was implemented to stay aware of the needs of the most needy of the Islamic society, but then khilafat was lost in internal battles for throne power while forgetting what kind of power it was supposed to be according to Islam.

Exactly...
Caliphate does not depend on Caliph only..It depends on People too....
If people are bad , lone caliph cant do much...This was the major problem faced by later Caliphs...people were sinners and absconders of Islamic moral code and code of Practice.

For that reason i personally dont believe we the current era Muslims can create a Caliphate...
We wont find anybody who fits the bill for being a caliph..and most of us wont prove to be a good subject either..

As they say..Charity begins at home..I,me ,we ... need to improve ourselves first before even the talk of a Caliphate...

[Armstrong]

The caliph is the holder of the Book of Shariah and the imposer of Shariah as the law of the land.And shariah is???

No Muslims are the Holder of the Book of Shariah and then they decide to impose it as the law of the land ! The Caliph as their elected leaders is nothing more than what a modern day President would be...he isn't the authority on Religious Interpretation he simply tasked with Governance ! All the 4 Sunni Schools of Jurisprudence and the 1 Shi'ite School of Jurisprudence were started by Scholars and not the Caliph...heck they were even aloof from the Caliph ! Even in the time of Umar, Abu Bakr and Usman...people like Ali and other learned companions were either consulted or their fatawa (legal opinions) sought otherwise the Caliph being the Holder of the Book and the Imposer of Shariah could have insisted on his ability to interpret the Quran and the Sunnah as final and binding and yet they didn't !

[King Solomon]

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No Muslims are the Holder of the Book of Shariah and then they decide to impose it as the law of the land ! The Caliph as their elected leaders is nothing more than what a modern day President would be...he isn't the authority on Religious Interpretation he simply tasked with Governance ! All the 4 Sunni Schools of Jurisprudence and the 1 Shi'ite School of Jurisprudence were started by Scholars and not the Caliph...heck they were even aloof from the Caliph ! Even in the time of Umar, Abu Bakr and Usman...people like Ali and other learned companions were either consulted or their fatawa (legal opinions) sought otherwise the Caliph being the Holder of the Book and the Imposer of Shariah could have insisted on his ability to interpret the Quran and the Sunnah as final and binding and yet they didn't !

Exactly, these so-called scholars have been a menace of Islam since the beginning. God tells us that Quran "has been fulfilled in truth and justice" and is "easy to understand", yet we have sought these scholars. They have divided Islam into many sects and have instigated conflict between each.

In short, they have complicated the religion of Islam so much that Islam is considered to be a backward religion (and rightfully so, in these scholar's interpratation).

The truth is, Quran does not mention any "form of governance". It just advises us to "engage in mutual consultation".

What is that? That is democracy. The western style of democracy is the ideal model, to be honest. In the Muslim world, today Iran's model is the closest to that.