Israel Bombs Gaza - Hundreds Dead

[Solomon2]

It should have been left on Palestinians to decide BECAUSE IT WAS THEIR LAND.THEY WERE BORN THERE

Some were. It is suspected (because in sixty years the Arabs haven't permitted the U.N. to carry out a census of the people in the camps, yet after the 1949 cease-fire the ration strength of the camps sharply increased) that many were not, and simply migrated to the camps from other places, preferring the welfare of free food and housing to earning a living. After all, over 20% of Israel's citizens are Arabs, including Arabs who still own land from their ancestors. I won't repeat myself further - those interested can go to my blog at the link and read the stuff there.

[Jihad]

Originally Posted by Solomon2

Some were. It is suspected (because in sixty years the Arabs haven't permitted the U.N. to carry out a census of the people in the camps, yet after the 1949 cease-fire the ration strength of the camps sharply increased) that many were not, and simply migrated to the camps from other places, preferring the welfare of free food and housing to earning a living. After all, over 20% of Israel's citizens are Arabs, including Arabs who still own land from their ancestors. I won't repeat myself further - those interested can go to my blog at the link and read the stuff there.

Does 20% represent the majority of the Arabs or Palestinians?
The Zionists have BOUGHT Palestinian lands.
And please don't repeat yourself any further, neither should I since this thread is only about Israel bombing the Gaza strip and not whether Israel belongs in the Middle East or not.
We can go on for ages, fact is, this is a solution which won't be solved in the near future, especially now due to Israel carrying out these immense attacks.

[Solomon2]

fact is, this is a solution which won't be solved in the near future, especially now due to Israel carrying out these immense attacks.
Do you want it solved in the near future? And if so, how?

[AgNoStIc MuSliM]

Originally Posted by Solomon2

Furthermore, if Israel is "illegitimate" what does that make Pakistan?

Why do you insist on making flawed comparisons with Pakistan?

Pakistan is not populated by immigrants. The majority of her inhabitants at the time of her creation were native to that land, had lived and toiled on that land and were likely descendants from the Indus Valley Civilization.

Make the 'case for Israel' on her own merits, not by flawed analogies to Pakistan.

[Jihad]

Originally Posted by Solomon2

fact is, this is a solution which won't be solved in the near future, especially now due to Israel carrying out these immense attacks.
Do you want it solved in the near future? And if so, how?

I will not discuss that in this thread.

[Al-zakir]

Originally Posted by Lockheed F-16

Be kind, I can tell you that the western media always shows Israel as victim and AN the poor British therefore hasn't got the ability to think clearly, he is brainwashed.

It's more like brain dead. This people have eyes but can't see. Heartless bastard. Thye don't evan feel bad when kids are dying.

[Solomon2]

Pakistan is not populated by immigrants.

Wasn't there a considerable exchange of populations between Pakistan and India after independence?

The majority of her inhabitants at the time of her creation were native to that land

The 1946 British census said that of the territory that became Israel, Jews were the majority of the inhabitants. That was one of the reasons why the U.N. recommended partitioning Palestine the way it did.

Make the 'case for Israel' on her own merits, not by flawed analogies to Pakistan

I wasn't considering justifying Israel's case by an analogy with Pakistan, but asked readers to consider justifying Pakistan's existence by comparison with Israel. Those interested might find this article useful.

[Pk_Thunder]

Israel bombs Gaza in ‘all-out war’ on Hamas

Gaza City—Warplanes pounded Gaza for the third day on Monday as tanks stood by to join Israel’s ‘all-out’ war on Hamas that has killed at least 345 people and prompted rocket fire from the Palestinian enclave.

As it massed troops along the territory’s border, Israel got a strong boost from Washington, which blamed the Gaza Strip’s Islamist rulers.

‘In order for the violence to stop, Hamas must stop firing rockets into Israel and agree to respect a sustainable and durable ceasefire,’ White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said.

But anger over the mammoth bombing campaign spiralled in the Muslim world, and efforts to hold talks between Syria and Israel were suspended because of the air assault.

Israel made it clear the military offensive was just beginning and vowed it would destroy every building used by Hamas in the impoverished and overcrowded sliver of coastal land.

With Israeli tanks idling just metres away from Gaza, the army declared the area a closed military zone – a move that in the past has often been followed by ground operations.

Defence Minister Ehud Barak, who has warned of a possible ground attack, declared Israel was in ‘an all-out war with Hamas and its proxies,’ but stressed that everything would be done to spare civilians.

At least 57 civilians, including 21 children, have been killed as a result of the Israeli bombardment, a UN spokesman said.

In all, the air onslaught, unleashed on Saturday after increased rocket and mortar fire from Gaza, has killed at least 345 Palestinians and wounded more than 1,550 others, Gaza medics said.

‘The goal of the operation is to topple Hamas,’ Deputy Prime Minister Haim Ramon said on Monday in televised comments.

‘After this operation there will not be a single Hamas building left standing in Gaza, and we plan to change the rules of the game,’ said armed forces deputy chief of staff Brigadier General Dan Harel, quoted by YNet News.

‘We are hitting not only terrorists and launchers, but also the whole Hamas government and all its wings,’ Harel told leaders of Israeli communities that are within range of rockets fired by Gaza militants.

Hamas militants remained defiant, firing about 40 rockets and mortar rounds into Israel on Monday.

One projectile slammed into a construction site in the southern city of Ashkelon some 13 kilometres north of the Gaza border, killing an Israeli Arab and wounding eight more people.

Western-backed Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas, whose forces were routed from Gaza when Hamas seized the territory in June 2007, implored the international community to help end the violence.

‘We call on the entire world to work to put an immediate stop to this aggression,’ he said.

Amid international concern over the humanitarian situation in the aid-dependent territory of 1.5 million, Israel allowed 80 truckloads of food and medicine into the enclave it has kept virtually sealed since the Hamas takeover.

In another development, Turkey, one of Israel’s leading allies in the Muslim world, announced that it was ending efforts to organise peace talks between Israel and Syria.

‘The continuation of the talks under these conditions is naturally impossible,’ Turkish Foreign Minister Ali Babacan told reporters after talks with his Egyptian counterpart Ahmed Abul Gheit.

Parliament in Jordan – one of two Arab states to have signed a peace treaty with Israel – demanded that the government ‘reconsider’ relations with the Jewish state.

Hamas, branded a terror group by Israel and the West, has lashed out at the world for not doing enough to end the blitz.

Israel is ‘committing a holocaust as the whole world watches and doesn’t lift a finger to stop it,’ Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhum told reporters.

The Islamists have warned they could resume suicide attacks against Israel for the first time since January 2005 in retaliation.

Since the onslaught began on Saturday, Gaza militants have fired more than 250 rockets and mortar rounds into Israel, killing two people and wounding nearly two dozen more.

The Israeli offensive has sparked protests worldwide.—AP

[Solomon2]

We're getting far off the topic here. The facts as near as I can make them out from reading the news are that Israel wants to root out or force a change upon a Hamas that rockets Israel and is despised by its subject population through armed action, and that even though Hamas is hiding behind civilians Israel nevertheless manages to keep civilian fatalities well below 30%.

Should Pakistanis endorse such action or not? Dawn characterizes Israel's action as "beyond reproach".

[AgNoStIc MuSliM]

In a perfect world, Israel has complete moral and legal justification in responding to aggression against her by using military force against targets directly associated with the aggression against her.

However, this is not a perfect world, and Israel is not blameless either. She has refused to outright agree in principle to a return to the 1967 borders in exchange for guaranteed peace, and she has continued with the occupation and blockades, that has created distrust over her intentions and sincerity.

Even in terms of her assault against alleged Hamas targets (complicit in attacking her), Israel has stepped over the line by resorting to second waves of bombings on the same targets, ostensibly to kill any rescue workers or people assisting, and by bombing targets where collateral damage was guaranteed.

This was an operation initiated by choice, at a time of Israels choosing, not forced upon her by events threatening to blow out of control so I do not buy the argument that the collateral damage was unavoidable. Targets close to civilians could have been taken out at a later date, as Israel has done on several occasions with Hamas leaders, tracking them and taking them out with surgical strikes.

[A.Rahman]

Originally Posted by AliFarooq

For now we gtta wrry abt our own war, if there is another arab war, im sure pakistan will be there to help our brothers.

This is what your brothers are up to

Arab leaders lavish jewelry on Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, President Bush not so much

By MATTHEW LEE
Associated Press Writer
11:24 PM CST, December 22, 2008

WASHINGTON (AP) — President George W. Bush's foreign policies may be unpopular in the Middle East, but Arab leaders showered his top diplomat with jewelry worth far more than a quarter of a million dollars last year. While Bush himself didn't fare nearly as well, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice raked in at least $316,000 in gem-encrusted baubles from the kings of Jordan and Saudi Arabia alone, making her one of top recipients among U.S. officials of gifts from foreign heads of state and government and their aides in 2007.

In January, Jordan's King Abdullah II gave Rice an emerald and diamond necklace, ring, bracelet and earrings estimated to be worth $147,000, according to the State Department's annual inventory of such items released Monday just in time for Christmas.

The king and his wife, Queen Rania, also gave Rice a less expensive necklace and earrings along with a jewelry box valued at $4,630, the document shows.

Not to be outdone, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia presented Rice with a ruby and diamond necklace with matching earrings, bracelet and ring worth $165,000 in July. The inventory also includes a $170,000 flower petal motif necklace the Saudi monarch gave to Rice in 2005, which the department says was not previously disclosed.

From the same Arab leaders, Bush received just over $100,000 in gifts in 2007, the list shows.

Other gifts include an $85,000 sapphire and diamond jewelry set and $10,000 piece of artwork depicting a desert scene of bedouins, camels and a tent made of gold given to first lady Laura Bush by Saudi King Abdullah.

Unfortunately for the Bushes, Rice and other recipients, they won't be able to enjoy the gifts as they have been turned over to the General Services Administration and government archives in accordance with federal law, which bars officials from accepting personal presents in almost all circumstances.

The inventory, prepared by State Department's Office of Protocol, catalogues all gifts given to top administration officials. The presents range from the modest — a $6 assortment of nuts and dried fruit from the Dalai Lama to Mrs. Bush — to the extravagant — Rice's jewelry — and the odd — a $570 Brush Cutter with "comfort grip handles" from the Swedish prime minister to the president, presumably for use at his ranch in Crawford, Texas.

Bush got a $150 bronze platypus paperweight from an Australian official. The prime minister of Singapore gave Bush $450 worth of fitness equipment, including a "uSurf Wave Action Exerciser" and an "iGallop Core and Abs Exerciser," according to the documents, which offer a window into the tastes of foreign leaders.

The wife of Japan's former prime minister Shinzo Abe appears to be an animal lover, having given Laura Bush two red, white and blue hand-embroidered pillows with American flag designs and the names and images of first dogs Barney and Miss Beazley worth $100 last year.

She also gave the first lady a $700 porcelain Limoges box with the two pets painted on it and a stuffed black fleece Scotty toy valued at $100, the inventory shows.

Some gifts reflect the recipient's specialty. Gen. Peter Pace, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff received two machine guns — one mounted — worth $1,300 from his Colombian and Russian counterparts, while Defense Secretary Robert Gates got a $3,200 decorative Arab knife from a Bahraini official and a steel dagger valued at $345 from the Jordanian king.

The source of gifts to U.S. intelligence officials is classified, but CIA chief Michael Hayden took in $8,000 in gifts, including a sword, fountain pen and silk rug, in 2007.

Arab leaders lavish jewelry on Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, President Bush not so much -- chicagotribune.com

[Always Neutral]

Originally Posted by Jihad

Leave him leonblack, he is one of the millions that justify these acts coming from Israel, who do not care 1 sh!t about the Palestininans and only move up with their shoulders and say: "Civilian casualties will always happen in strikes as these, nothing can be done about it"

Get of the high horse and see from where the strongest protest and pressure is comming from UK, EU and the UN. These are the only groups Israel will listen to after the US. This is inspite of UK and EU not recognising Hamas as legitimate.

The Arab world and the rest of the Muslim world are just breast beating and shedding crocodile tears.

Egypt has gone one further and accused Hamas of preventing the wounded Palestinians from getting first aid.

The West Bank Palestinians are happy that the cruel Hamas is getting its comeuppance for the massacre of innocent Fatah and Palestinians when they took over Gaza by violence. Guess that time you did not mind the killing of innocent muslims.

Regards
75 % of the casualties are Hamas terrorists.

[Always Neutral]

Originally Posted by Al-zakir

It's more like brain dead. This people have eyes but can't see. Heartless bastard. Thye don't evan feel bad when kids are dying.

Brain Dead. Well that may happen in a Madrassa or a seminary not in the education system here. Maybe thats why so many posters from Asia come to study here and not the otherway round.

Every innocent death in Afghanistan, Pakistan, UK, EU, India, Iraq etc is bad but the death of a terrorist can never be bad. As per UN 80 % deaths are Hamas men.

Regards

[Always Neutral]

Originally Posted by leonblack08

Ok what should be done to Israeli Defence Force who are killing CIVILIANS ???

Five sisters killed in Gaza while they slept


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-slept-1216224

You quote me an UK article and want a pat on your back for what I don't know.

Are U aware the strongest protests are from UK, EU, and the UN not the brother Ummah or muslim or Arab world ? Inspite of UK designating Hamas as a terrrorist organisation !

Hamas leader claims UK has widened links | World news | The Guardian

Both the US and the EU have designated Hamas a terrorist organisation and pledged to isolate it until it adopts the principles of the Quartet of Middle East negotiators - a renunciation of violence, recognition of Israel and honouring all previous agreements made by the Palestinian Authority.


The UN has stated that only 25 % are civilian casualties whereas in Israel its 75 %. All civilian casualties are bad whether its in Gaza or Fata. Do you want to designate PA and PAF and GOP as terrorist organisations alongwith IDF as both are fighting terrorists.

Regards

[pkpatriotic]

Israel, Stop! Just. Stop.
Lorelei Kelly.
December 30, 2008 (EST)

A behavior is strategic if it influences others by affecting their expectations. This principle of conflict resolution is one that is particularly relevant to the threats in today's world. Neatly defined and bounded states like the ones on political maps don't matter so much anymore. It's people that count. The safety of people across borders is as important as the safety of people within borders. This means that if you want ultimate victory, persuasion deserves as much firepower as coercion. American counterinsurgency doctrine enshrines civilian protection for Iraq and Afghanistan -- but this responsibility to protect people has huge implications for our general situation in today's world: Killing lots of people on the other side is not only ineffective, it is counterproductive. It hurts your cause. It gets more of your own people killed in the long run. Like Israel -- whose overwhelmingly violent response to Hamas rocket attacks seems to lack the most basic strategic or political meaning -- and where language such as "self-defense" -- words from the disconnected and bygone era of nation states -- seems quaint and almost entirely inaccurate.

"Defense" doesn't mean the same thing when one antagonist is a state and the other a networked organization. It's like the US Army fighting the Salvation Army. It's like Bin Laden versus the USA. The same sets of policies and tools don't work anymore. They make things worse. So political leaders (including our own) need to stop framing this deadly mayhem as some sort of justified or normal behavior. If we don't start with our best friend, when will we ever understand how the nature of danger has changed for good?

Yes the Hamas leaders are crappy and pathetic. Yes they risk their own civilians. That is not at issue. But these Israeli leaders are pathetic, too, so desperate to look tough. So concerted in their effort to spin the news-cycles of the world to their script. "Airpower" is another one of those words that needs to go on the vocabulary scrap heap. Why any of us ever believed that bombing terrified civilians would somehow inspire them to overthrow their horrid leaders is beyond me. And why any government thinks that killing lots of civilians on the side where the leaders use civilians as human shields will somehow be a dealbreaker has got to be the new definition of insanity. If the leaders are insufferable, work with others, like these folks.

It rings pretty hollow when those of us viewing can not only see who is doing the killing, but who is doing the dying. Policemen? Shoppers? University personnel? United Nations employees? Little kids? 3 Israelis vs. 300 Palestinians?

Israel, you are so better than this.

There are so many of us out here who want you to be successful, who admire the Jewish faith for its love of humanity and knowledge. We want you to prosper and to survive -- many of us have no personal dog in this fight. I've been in the Middle East once -- on a completely tourist trap trip down the Nile. I've never been to Israel -- but I identify with you like most Americans do.

You are draining your reservoir of goodwill -- Stop it.

Like many Americans who grew up in the '70s, I became fascinated by Israel after seeing "Holocaust" on television. In fact, I lived in Germany and traveled Europe for years trying to understand how the Holocaust could have happened. I am no scholar of history. But from Vilnius to East Berlin, I've found the old synagogues. I've sat outside in the rain on dark cobbled streets listening to ceremonies through open windows, I've seen where they used your ancestors' headstones as pavement to walk upon. I've beheld the stolen art. I'm sitting here now looking at a black and white photo of the Jewish cemetery in Prague that I snapped before the end of the Cold War. The sadness there seemed to me to reflect the entire continent. For years, I felt compelled to seek out these places -- I suppose partly out of curiosity, but also out of horror and shame that -- for whatever goddamned excuse -- we did not save the victims of the Nazis. That the rest of us did not protect your families. I apologized for this at every stop. I still do. I wept.

Israeli newspapers offer fine alternatives. Here's an example:

The line of self-control and the awareness of the obligation to protect the lives of the innocent in Gaza must be toed even now, precisely because Israel's strength is almost limitless. Israel must constantly check to see when its force has crossed the line of legitimate and effective response, whose goal is deterrence and a restoration of the cease-fire, and from what point it is once again trapped in the usual spiral of violence.

In less than two decades, the measures of national security have gone from being rational, linear and technological, to random, chaotic and very human. Those who want to survive need to modernize their toolkit accordingly: More persuasion, less coercion. More prevention, less reaction. More participation, less exclusion. More people, less machines, More life strategies, less death strategies.

Israel, you are better than this. You are not just typical. You have the wisdom of the universe in your borders. You have profound knowledge of why death doesn't fix a problem. You have the USA to help you.

Please, put the gun down. Move away from the gun.

Just. Stop.