Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[LKJ86]

He also noted that general Zhang Youxia (Head of the Equipment Development Department of the Central Military Commission) was present during the test flights and was both impressed and satisfied.

And also including general Xu Qiliang, Vice Chairman of CMC

 

[Deino]

And also including general Xue Qiliang, Vice Chairman of CMC
View attachment 651089

Thanks again for the correction and additional info, but what do you think, when will we see a first clear image of such one in PLAAF colours? Slightly before Zhuhai, only later ...??

 

[Figaro]

According to the well known blogger Pupu - and in contrast to the recent report in the SCMP - the next batch of J-20s use a thrust enhanced WS-10 variant. He also noted that general Zhang Youxia (Head of the Equipment Development Department of the Central Military Commission) was present during the test flights and was both impressed and satisfied.

via https://m.weibo.cn/detail/4526516967515937
View attachment 651088

Wait I'm confused. So the next batch will feature a higher rated WS-10 variant than the one we've seen currently on the J-20?

 

[lcloo]

Wait I'm confused. So the next batch will feature a higher rated WS-10 variant than the one we've seen currently on the J-20?

I think he meant a more powerful WS-10 variant compare with current ones fitted to J11B and J16.

 

[Figaro]

I think he meant a more powerful WS-10 variant compare with current ones fitted to J11B and J16.

I'm pretty sure now Pupu is talking about the 14.5 tonne WS-10 that has been in development for a couple years (confirmed at Zhuhai 2016 I believe). Back in 2017, he already mentioned the WS-10B had a thrust of nearly 14 tonnes, so 14.5 tonnes seems to fit the more power WS-10 description.

 

[S10]

If the latest WS-10B for J-20 has 14.5 tons of thrust, then the rumor that WS-15 went back to the drawing board around 2014 might be true.

PLA was rumoured to be unimpressed with the original specs, progress and design. I think they're going to aim for at least 16 to 17 tons of thrust as opposed to 15 tons of the original design. Otherwise there isn't that much performance gain from WS-10.

All of the above are my speculation.

 

[Figaro]

If the latest WS-10B for J-20 has 14.5 tons of thrust, then the rumor that WS-15 went back to the drawing board around 2014 might be true.

PLA was rumoured to be unimpressed with the original specs, progress and design. I think they're going to aim for at least 16 to 17 tons of thrust as opposed to 15 tons of the original design. Otherwise there isn't that much performance gain from WS-10.

All of the above are my speculation.

WS-10B has a thrust of approximately 14 tonnes. The latest variant has 14.5 tonnes (which I believe is the one Pupu is referring to). If I'm not mistaken, the original WS-15 was supposed to be in the 150 kN class range ... which would mean from 150 kN to 160 kN (very comparable to the F-119). But in 2012, AVIC stated the goal had been moved up to 180 kN. Honestly though, the original core was said to have a maximum thrust of 175 kN, so even if using the original design it shouldn't be difficult to increase the thrust to that value.

https://web.archive.org/web/20131208202208/http://turbineengine.org/pdf/China Aerospace Propulsion Technology Summit.pdf

Note YWH-30-27 is the original core. It should offer up to 175 kN of wet and 110 kN of dry thrust. But ofc given the changes applied by 606, the engine should have better specs than this.

 

[vi-va]

USAF veteran. F-111 Cold War, then F-16 Desert Storm.


In order of accomplishments: Good => Excellent => Outstanding.

The J-20 is an excellent/outstanding effort by China, and the Chinese engineers have all the rights to be proud of what they did. Here is the deal...

In designing a low radar observable body, there are three rules to go by:

- Control of quantity of radiators
- Control of array of radiators
- Control of modes of radiation

They are not so much rules that can be broken as they are guidelines that there are degrees of obedience to them.

The sphere is the reference calibration body in radar design. Look up 'Lincoln Calibration Sphere'. The reason the sphere is used is because the sphere is the most obedient to the three rules.

The J-20, as opined by many, is not as obedient to the three rules as the American F-22 and F-35. Ultimately, the only way to know is to have all the current 'stealth' aircrafts under 3rd party supervised measurement, which will never happen. So for now, all we have is what we observe and educated guesses.

care to explain the superiority of F-22 with this below?

Care to explain the superiority of F-35 with bumpy belly.

F-35 is fat, really fat. Can NOT do supersonic cruise. Maneuverability is very bad, much worse than F-16. Flight envelope is bad.

Sorry @Deino , I should not derail this thread, but again @gambit is a driver, not a jet designer. So I suppose I can have a fight back to his arrogance.
I read enough research paper, your guideline is nothing new, very basic actually. I can write the 3 guideline in my high school.

 

[serenity]

WS15 indeed restarted many years ago. Original one was ready to come out with J-20 when it was ready both planned to be together and upgraded and improved together. Original engine was not much better than WS10's power now and did not have the reliability and experience. Only slightly better power of 15 ton. Higher ups probably thought it isn't good enough and by then WS10 engineers were confident to extract much more power out of WS10 as technology and materials improve in some fields that were just lagging. WS15 program restarted so they can deliver better power output but project means suffered 10 year delay. Basically restart totally and even some change to core according to new abilities and materials.

 

[gambit]

care to explain the superiority of F-22 with this below?

Already have. Yrs ago before you came on this forum. Use the search feature.

I read enough research paper, your guideline is nothing new, very basic actually. I can write the 3 guideline in my high school.

If you did read, you would not have made that silly 'challenge' post. You would have known how and why the F-22's diverter plates are statistically lower in terms of contribution to total RCS. Same for the F-35. But it looks like you did not read well enough.

 

[Figaro]

WS15 indeed restarted many years ago. Original one was ready to come out with J-20 when it was ready both planned to be together and upgraded and improved together. Original engine was not much better than WS10's power now and did not have the reliability and experience. Only slightly better power of 15 ton. Higher ups probably thought it isn't good enough and by then WS10 engineers were confident to extract much more power out of WS10 as technology and materials improve in some fields that were just lagging. WS15 program restarted so they can deliver better power output but project means suffered 10 year delay. Basically restart totally and even some change to core according to new abilities and materials.

I don't think a 10 year delay ... the WS-15 initially was slated to enter production around 2020. It is now projected to be a couple years after that (design certification between 2021-2023 and mass production afterwards).

 

[UKBengali]

I don't think a 10 year delay ... the WS-15 initially was slated to enter production around 2020. It is now projected to be a couple years after that (design certification between 2021-2023 and mass production afterwards).

I also doubt that it had been "uprated" at all as even 10 years ago, all the available information said that the Chinese were aiming for 180KN of after-burning thrust.

 

[Figaro]

I also doubt that it had been "uprated" at all as even 10 years ago, all the available information said that the Chinese were aiming for 180KN of after-burning thrust.

The WS-15 design parameters back in the early 2000s indeed pointed to an engine in the 150kN class (roughly equal to that of the F-119). It was only in the beginning of the last decade that we heard the WS-15 had its thrust, among other design parameters, increased (hence the additional development time).

 

[Ultima Thule]

The WS-15 design parameters back in the early 2000s indeed pointed to an engine in the 150kN class (roughly equal to that of the F-119). It was only in the beginning of the last decade that we heard the WS-15 had its thrust, among other design parameters, increased (hence the additional development time).

But sir as we know that J-20 is bigger jet than F-22/Su-57 and slightly heavier, so if they could develop WS-15 with a same class of F-119 than it would under-perform than F-22/Su-57, so i think sir their intention for developing the engine for J-20 to build WS-15 with Better thrust and Better T/W ratio than F-119 from the beginning, I could be wrong but this is my just 2 cent

 

[Figaro]

But sir as we know that J-20 is bigger jet than F-22/Su-57 and slightly heavier, so if they could develop WS-15 with a same class of F-119 than it would under-perform than F-22/Su-57, so i think sir their intention for developing the engine for J-20 to build WS-15 with Better thrust and Better T/W ratio than F-119 from the beginning, I could be wrong but this is my just 2 cent

We actually don't know the J-20s weight ... it could be lighter than both of them given the amount of composites used. Either way, the original WS-15 design ensured the J-20 was sufficiently powered as the F-22. But considering the F119 is an almost 30 year old engine, it is no surprise that the Chinese wanted to upgrade the WS-15 to become competitive with the F135 and the Russian Id. 30 engines. Especially given the pace of the WS-10s development, the WS-15's original design specs don't look very impressive anymore.