A Muslim majority Indus Valley Civilization?

[OrionHunter]

The wars with India are due to India's desire to dominate South Asia at any cost.

Ah! Here come the trolls to derail a perfectly good thread! Jeeez!

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

The OP was doing so well until the author -- and they do this unfailingly -- gave in to his own hateful agenda with the gratuitous Arab bashing. What is it with some people that, in the same breath that they advocate cultural harmony and inclusiveness, they throw in their own bigotry to spoil the whole premise?

I agree, I myself didn't like that the article's author began to bash Arabs pointlessly. There is no such thing as Arab cultural imperialism & I refuted that part of the article in a previous post of mine on this thread.

The fact is that both IVC and Arabic culture, along with Persian, Turkic and other cultures, have an influence on Pakistan and they are part of our cultural heritage. Arabic is the central language in Islam and you cannot understand the Qur'an and namaaz for yourself unless you understand Arabic. There is nothing to be ashamed of in learning Arabic, just as there is nothing to be ashamed of in learning English.

That aside, the OP makes a valid point that it is entirely possible for people to embrace disparate histories as part of our heritage.

Pakistan must focus on building an identity around their racial, cultural, linguistic, & religious heritage & amalgamate them in to one. By building a unique identity for themselves & encouraging tolerance, free thoughts, & innovation, the people shall be motivated to struggle for their country. That would be much better than seeing some Pan-Islamic Pakistanis cry for the revival of the caliphate or for Muslim unity instead of being productive & improving their own society.

Arabic is the language of the Quran, however, it isn't compulsory for a Muslim to learn Arabic. There are many intelligent, creative, & progressive Muslims around the world that can't speak Arabic but make use of a translation instead. My Arabic isn't good, but I know & understand Islam much better than many Arabic speakers. Understanding religion requires study with rationality, & any person that devotes his or her time to learning Islam will surely be able to do so. There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning Arabic though, & it's advisable for a person to learn as many languages as he or she possibly can. Learning another nation's language benefits an individual by allowing him or her to study that nation's philosophy, science, & countless other subjects. This helps bring about creativity & an intake of new ideas & concepts resulting in creativity, progress, & innovation.

U see the region of pakistan too had some remarkable scientist like Aryabhatta, Bhaskara, Valmiki, even Chanakya(Arthasastra), and many countless people... But they rarely get recognition in ur country, just cos they were past anchestors.. I have seen many though take pride in invention of muslims in arabia and persia, instead of people in ur own region...

Exactly, Pakistanis must take pride in the accomplishments of their own ancestors. There is nothing wrong with being proud of the accomplishments of other Muslims, but claiming someone else's inventions & discoveries as a part of your own heritage is shameful.

Thanks for the names of the scientists you provided. I don't know some of them so I would it appreciate it if you can provide me with comprehensive sources to learn about their scientific achievements.

I thought it came 1400 years ago?

Yes, Islam in its current form came in to being over 1400 years ago when the last Prophet was anointed & began to receive revelation.

 

[Developereo]

Pakistan must focus on building an identity around their racial, cultural, linguistic, & religious heritage & amalgamate them in to one. By building a unique identity for themselves & encouraging tolerance, free thoughts, & innovation, the people shall be motivated to struggle for their country. That would be much better than seeing some Pan-Islamic Pakistanis cry for the revival of the caliphate or for Muslim unity instead of being productive & improving their own society.

I have never understood this alleged crisis of identity in Pakistan. When I grew up in Karachi, we were all Pakistani, regardless of religion or ethnicity, simply because we were born and lived in Pakistan. Now, supposedly, there is some sort of crisis. Fine, whatever.

Arabic is the language of the Quran, however, it isn't compulsory for a Muslim to learn Arabic. There are many intelligent, creative, & progressive Muslims around the world that can't speak Arabic but make use of a translation instead. My Arabic isn't good, but I know & understand Islam much better than many Arabic speakers. Understanding religion requires study with rationality, & any person that devotes his or her time to learning Islam will surely be able to do so. There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning Arabic though, & it's advisable for a person to learn as many languages as he or she possibly can. Learning another nation's language benefits an individual by allowing him or her to study that nation's philosophy, science, & countless other subjects. This helps bring about creativity & an intake of new ideas & concepts resulting in creativity, progress, & innovation.

.

Absolutely. I agree that learning Arabic is neither a prerequisite, nor a detriment, to being a good Pakistani or a good Muslim. My point was simply that, since so much of our religious rituals are in Arabic, it's natural for people to want to understand what they are saying first hand, rather than through translations.

Any translation, from any language, is never as good as the original.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

I have never understood this alleged crisis of identity in Pakistan. When I grew up in Karachi, we were all Pakistani, regardless of religion or ethnicity, simply because we were born and lived in Pakistan. Now, supposedly, there is some sort of crisis. Fine, whatever.

I don't think that there is any major identity crisis in Pakistan. Although there are a number of people who do suffer from it. It's those people that must learn to be nationalistic. People simply need to take pride in their heritage & in the accomplishments of their pre-Islamic ancestors, this does not mean that they must give up on Muslim brotherhood either. As long as people are able to amalgamate their multiple identities in to one, I really doubt they could ever suffer from any kind of identity crisis.

Absolutely. I agree that learning Arabic is neither a prerequisite, nor a detriment, to being a good Pakistani or a good Muslim. My point was simply that, since so much of our religious rituals are in Arabic, it's natural for people to want to understand what they are saying first hand, rather than through translations.

Any translation, from any language, is never as good as the original.

Learning Arabic or pretty much any other language should be encouraged, but not made compulsory in the country. Translations are aimed at providing an explanation of a verse, most of the time, this is pretty easy. The problem occurs when an idiom or a proverb that only a local speaker is able to understand is used. That's when deriving a good translation of a verse gets tough. For those who are unwilling to learn another language, there are various books explaining the verses of the Quran. Sometimes even local Arabic speakers may find it difficult to understand the Quran owing to the fact that Quranic Arabic is different from their local dialect. The point I am trying to make is that there is really no easy way around this problem. Religion is understood by those who are willing to take the time to do their own research & study the scripture for themselves.

 

[pk_baloch]

PAKISTANIS HAVE THE HINDU ANCESTRY?????? FALSE VIDEO MADE BY SARFAROSH LOL ...U MEAN PATHAN AND BALOCH HAVE ALSO ANCESTRY OF HINDU ...HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE DISCUSSED ON THIS TOPIC

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

PAKISTANIS HAVE THE HINDU ANCESTRY?????? FALSE VIDEO MADE BY SARFAROSH LOL ...U MEAN PATHAN AND BALOCH HAVE ALSO ANCESTRY OF HINDU ...HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE DISCUSSED ON THIS TOPIC

Just ignore that video, some Pakistanis may have Hindu ancestors, but I am sure that isn't the case for all of them. Besides, Hinduism is a religion, not a race. Even those Pakistanis who do have Hindu ancestry aren't necessarily racially related to modern day Hindus. All Muslims on earth have ancestors that at some point in time converted to Islam from one religion or another.

 

[pk_baloch]

Just ignore that video, some Pakistanis may have Hindu ancestors, but I am sure that isn't the case for all of them. Besides, Hinduism is a religion, not a race. Even those Pakistanis who do have Hindu ancestry aren't necessarily racially related to modern day Hindus. All Muslims on earth have ancestors that at some point in time converted to Islam from one religion or another.

yes some pakistani may have hindu ancestory but pakhtoon and baloch .........
actually i have discussed alot on these types of topics from my previous id .........

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

yes some pakistani may have hindu ancestory but pakhtoon and baloch .........
actually i have discussed alot on these types of topics from my previous id .........

Lol, I can't comment on what religion all the different ethnicities of Pakistan followed before Islam, but I do know that Buddhism was popular at some point in time throughout the Indus. Our early Indo-Aryan & Indo-Iranian ancestors had their own beliefs, one of which is Vedism.

Some Indians & others on this forum just don't realize that there is a difference between religion & ethnicity. Two individuals believing in the same religion does not equate to them being of the same ethnicity.

 

[pk_baloch]

. Some Indians & others on this forum just don't realize that there is a difference between religion & ethnicity.

This is what the main problem with the INDIANS have.........

 

[Joe Shearer]

A brilliant article, one of the most insightful I have read.

It is unfortunate that Indians commenting on it allowed the thread to be hijacked by the usual suspects, and allowed trolls to introduce their favourite points of disinformation. It is even more unfortunate that many Indians seem to be unfamiliar with recent history and the events at the time of partition, and do not point out errors in fact and in logic made by trolls.

The only way to refute the ignorance of the thoroughly brainwashed is by presenting cold, hard fact, not squabbling with the misinformed and joining them in their use of the tu quoque argument.

The best that can be said about phoenix and Developereo and uchiha is that they are aware of the merit of the arguments, but due to their unwillingness to accept either that there is an identity crisis due to the lack of a positive core other than religion, a lack of a pre-Islamic cultural consciousness, and their extreme reluctance to even tread the borders of a rejection of Arabicisation, they cannot go along with the author, and find him contradictory and to be resorting to unnecessary measures of unity. This is plainly contrary to the perceptions of more than one other Pakistani. Perhaps the numbers of such Pakistanis is not yet overwhelming, but to reject their arguments and thinking out of hand is not healthy.

There are other comments which form the final stages of the digestive process. These discussions depend on comment; some comment nourishes, some is good for the system by providing roughage.

 

[The SC]

Extremely thoughtful and very scholarly article, but not perfect, nor the ideas it contains; The Indus valley civilisation and its trade were vitally linked to the Arabs who were the Mesopotamian civilisation, the Egyptian civilisation and other major civilisations that pre-dated or coexisted with the Indus valley civilisation, So to get rid of the Arab influence is to get rid of all these legacies and Islam itself, I am not even talking about the 60 000 years Arab genes!
The Muslim legacy of democracy and social well-being was far more sophisticated than the British one who itself was inspired by Islamic models and thoughts.

 

[INDIC]

PAKISTANIS HAVE THE HINDU ANCESTRY?????? FALSE VIDEO MADE BY SARFAROSH LOL ...U MEAN PATHAN AND BALOCH HAVE ALSO ANCESTRY OF HINDU ...HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE DISCUSSED ON THIS TOPIC

Afghanistan has history of Hinduism, there are lots of remanent of Hindu-Buddhist temple in East Afghanistan. But I don't know if ancient Hindu Kamboja are the ancestors of Afghans.

Can you tell me what religion Balochs followed before converting to Islam.

A brilliant article, one of the most insightful I have read.

It is unfortunate that Indians commenting on it allowed the thread to be hijacked by the usual suspects, and allowed trolls to introduce their favourite points of disinformation. It is even more unfortunate that many Indians seem to be unfamiliar with recent history and the events at the time of partition, and do not point out errors in fact and in logic made by trolls.

The only way to refute the ignorance of the thoroughly brainwashed is by presenting cold, hard fact, not squabbling with the misinformed and joining them in their use of the tu quoque argument.

The best that can be said about phoenix and Developereo and uchiha is that they are aware of the merit of the arguments, but due to their unwillingness to accept either that there is an identity crisis due to the lack of a positive core other than religion, a lack of a pre-Islamic cultural consciousness, and their extreme reluctance to even tread the borders of a rejection of Arabicisation, they cannot go along with the author, and find him contradictory and to be resorting to unnecessary measures of unity. This is plainly contrary to the perceptions of more than one other Pakistani. Perhaps the numbers of such Pakistanis is not yet overwhelming, but to reject their arguments and thinking out of hand is not healthy.

There are other comments which form the final stages of the digestive process. These discussions depend on comment; some comment nourishes, some is good for the system by providing roughage.

Can you clarify if Ancient Kamboja are the ancestors of modern day Pathans.

 

[Jade]

When I read these kind of articles, I ask myself one question: why does these kind of articles appear only in Pakistani media and not in Indian media, in spite of India being 100 times more diverse. The only conclusion I draw is that Pakistanis are suffering from massive identity crisis

 

[The SC]

Most probably it is you as an Indian who is suffering from an Identity crisis.
The Indus valley was /is situated in what is known today as Pakistan and major parts of Afghanistan, neighbouring Iran the ancient Persian empire civilisation from the south and the mesopotamian civilisation from the north.
What was India at that time, no one seems to know and if you can enlighten this forum with some facts, please do.

 

[Jade]

Most probably it is you as an Indian who is suffering from an Identity crisis.
The Indus valley was /is situated in what is known today as Pakistan and major parts of Afghanistan, neighbouring Iran the ancient Persian empire civilisation from the south and the mesopotamian civilisation from the north.
What was India at that time, no one seems to know and if you can enlighten this forum with some facts, please do.

Indians are very clear: IVC is a part of Indian civilization and IVC is taught extensively in our school text books starting from 6th class to 12th class