INDIA: Pak T-shirts in procession, Treason case registered

[Joeblow]

Watch it. He isn't the only one

I already gave you proof it doesn't. The cow slaughter ban for example and almost every issue where Muslim and Hindu thought has been divergent. Do you remember Babri masjid? It was demolished despite the protestations of Muslims across the country.

Look at Kashmir. At every point where Hindu and Muslim thought has been found divergent there has been chaos and the issue has been resolved in favor of Hindutvadi terrorists. You can claim such terrorists are a minority which I admit is a truth but it still does not do anything to prove that Muslims are in a great condition in India.

Another thing. No where in the world and particularly in developing countries the people, rich and poor are treated equally. In India there is something called a caste system.

My cousin said so and so is a dalit and I shouldn't touch him.

At that time I said nothing, but truly it is horrible that we can treat our own fellow beings as untouchable. The practice exists in parts of Pakistan too but nonetheless its a horrible practice.



My nana was the biggest supporter of Pakistan living in Lucknow. So don't try to teach me. He married almost every daughter to Pakistanis. There used to be bets on who would win matches with Muslims in Lucknow vouching for Pakistan. You can ask your grand father about this if you want.

In 1947 having a car was considered a big thing. Now almost 20% of Indian and Pakistani populations have a car. Its like saying first we had A and now we have A whose value has declined/appreciated so we are better off. It doesn't make a difference. Did anyone have internet in the year 1947?



What is your village? My ancestral place from one side is Barabanki. They are ansaris which almost every other day are being framed as terrorists in there. Almost every article about Ansaris seems to cover them as terrorists even though Ansaris are by far the most liberal people known.

I won't divulge my other branch but in any case the problems for Muslims in India are many. The economic situation has gradually improved for people in both India and Pakistan. What has not improved is the way Muslims are treated in India. By many those parts are not even considered Indian especially Lucknow being the heartland of the All India Muslim League which formed Pakistan.

I've got a question for you. If your nana loved Pakistan so much, Why didn't your nana leave during the partition?

Now, look at it from a Hindu's point of view. Muslims voted overwhelmingly for partition based on the reasoning that they couldn't live with the Hindus, and yet 1/3rd of the muslims of the subcontinent stayed back in India. Think about how effed up that is. You got a piece of land (Pakistan and Bangladesh) that was proportional to your population (90 million) but we ended up with a 3rd of the population. In what world is that fair play? Every time there is a post regarding an Afghan saying something negative towards Pakistan, every Pakistani poster is up in arms demanding that they be sent back to Afghanistan. Yet the expectation is that, despite our history, Hindus should quietly accommodate all of the Muslims demands.

You speak of the gujarat riots like it was the tragedy to end all tragedies. However, there have always been riots in Gujarat. There used to be 2 or 3 every year. There would be curfews and flag marches in the old city in Vadodara every year. Where were you when the Hindus were being killed?

Let's address cow slaughter, why should you be allowed to slaughter something Hindus consider holy? Your own religion offers you options of other creatures you could slaughter, why does it have to be a cow? Just so you can throw it in their face? How would you feel if they wore t-shirts with derogatory words for your religion in the guise of freedom of speech?

Regarding your post about economic opportunities, discrimination is only a part of why the Muslims are struggling. During partition, a large number of the educated, middle class from the muslim community left India. A vast majority of those who were left, were the rich businessmen, who didn't want to leave everything behind and poor people who couldn't afford to leave. That's why you see such a discrepancy in employment. I went to school with 9 muslim kids out of 50. Only 1 continued to college with me. The poor kids went to work after school and the rich kids joined their family business.

Take your prisoner stats and break it down to economic conditions instead of religion. I can almost guarantee that you'll see that the Muslims are not being jailed in higher proportion but rather the POOR are being jailed in higher proportion. That's the reality throughout the world.

There is definite discrimination in India against Muslims. It can be seen in housing, employment etc. Obviously, no country can get anywhere while large sections of its population is being actively discriminated against. And most people including me don't want to be part of a system where there is dicrimination against anybody. But my question to all the Pakistani Muslims, is a simple one. The Muslims asked for a separate country and got it. Why should any Indian care what happens to the Muslims?

To the Indian Muslims, Guys I am desperately sorry for posting this (except @mujhaidind, to whom I say, eff you and the horse you rode in one)

 

[mujhaidind]

Thats a lie and generalization. Only people who live in ghettos and have been wronged by govt, take solace from those thoughts.
I dont blame them.
They are also the same people who keep giving threats like 'dont test our patience hindus.. we will do something bad in future'... and then lose everything in a riot.
I sympathize with such people, than feel any anger.

You Pagans won't understand heart of a Muslim. I know Indian media and politicians try to demonize Pakistan. But do you think are Indian Muslims so stupid to beleive you people?

When something bad happens in Pakistan, we feel like something bad happened to us. Hindus start cheering when a bomb goes off in pakistan but we offer condelonces and hope they see good times. If you think only uneducated and poor Muslims support their fellow Muslims, you are mistaken. I personally know many ivy-league graduates who have immense respect for dawood ibrahmin for avenging babri and anti-muslim riots.

The sell-out muslims like @Razia Sultana @acetophenol fortunately form a minority.

 

[livingdead]

You Pagans won't understand heart of a Muslim. I know Indian media and politicians try to demonize Pakistan. But do you think are Indian Muslims so stupid to beleive you people?

When something bad happens in Pakistan, we feel like something bad happened to us. Hindus start cheering when a bomb goes off in pakistan but we offer condelonces and hope they see good times. If you think only uneducated and poor Muslims support their fellow Muslims, you are mistaken. I personally know many ivy-league graduates who have immense respect for dawood ibrahmin for avenging babri and anti-muslim riots.

The sell-out muslims like @Razia Sultana @acetophenol fortunately form a minority.

I know both type of muslims, and I dont say only poor and backward muslims hate us hindus...
loving or hating pakistan is a symptom of that hate.. most Indian muslims will never have anything to do with pakistani muslims, so either hate or love is irrational.
and when they do meeting a pakistani.. the outcome is completely different..
I know here in UK, Indian muslims who had irrational hatred for pakistan (mostly due to partition which made their own life bad) but mellowed after meeting pakistanis.
I also know gujrati muslims, who will avoid punjabi pakistanis.. they dont really get along well. (look down upon each other)

So yes, I understand .. the ummah things and all that blah. but I have pretty good understanding of how things work in real world.

 

[RazPaK]

I've got a question for you. If your nana loved Pakistan so much, Why didn't your nana leave during the partition?

Now, look at it from a Hindu's point of view. Muslims voted overwhelmingly for partition based on the reasoning that they couldn't live with the Hindus, and yet 1/3rd of the muslims of the subcontinent stayed back in India. Think about how effed up that is. You got a piece of land (Pakistan and Bangladesh) that was proportional to your population (90 million) but we ended up with a 3rd of the population. In what world is that fair play? Every time there is a post regarding an Afghan saying something negative towards Pakistan, every Pakistani poster is up in arms demanding that they be sent back to Afghanistan. Yet the expectation is that, despite our history, Hindus should quietly accommodate all of the Muslims demands.

You speak of the gujarat riots like it was the tragedy to end all tragedies. However, there have always been riots in Gujarat. There used to be 2 or 3 every year. There would be curfews and flag marches in the old city in Vadodara every year. Where were you when the Hindus were being killed?

Let's address cow slaughter, why should you be allowed to slaughter something Hindus consider holy? Your own religion offers you options of other creatures you could slaughter, why does it have to be a cow? Just so you can throw it in their face? How would you feel if they wore t-shirts with derogatory words for your religion in the guise of freedom of speech?

Regarding your post about economic opportunities, discrimination is only a part of why the Muslims are struggling. During partition, a large number of the educated, middle class from the muslim community left India. A vast majority of those who were left, were the rich businessmen, who didn't want to leave everything behind and poor people who couldn't afford to leave. That's why you see such a discrepancy in employment. I went to school with 9 muslim kids out of 50. Only 1 continued to college with me. The poor kids went to work after school and the rich kids joined their family business.

Take your prisoner stats and break it down to economic conditions instead of religion. I can almost guarantee that you'll see that the Muslims are not being jailed in higher proportion but rather the POOR are being jailed in higher proportion. That's the reality throughout the world.

There is definite discrimination in India against Muslims. It can be seen in housing, employment etc. Obviously, no country can get anywhere while large sections of its population is being actively discriminated against. And most people including me don't want to be part of a system where there is dicrimination against anybody. But my question to all the Pakistani Muslims, is a simple one. The Muslims asked for a separate country and got it. Why should any Indian care what happens to the Muslims?

To the Indian Muslims, Guys I am desperately sorry for posting this (except @mujhaidind, to whom I say, eff you and the horse you rode in one)

Musaalman hain hum, wataan hain sara jehan hamara.

 

[Cat Shannon]

i am sure if some one wear indian flag instead of shirt infront of our police.. they will not give a shit .. it is only india

and no sh!t was given by me ! officially.

 

[Armstrong]

I know both type of muslims, and I dont say only poor and backward muslims hate us hindus...
loving or hating pakistan is a symptom of that hate.. most Indian muslims will never have anything to do with pakistani muslims, so either hate or love is irrational.
and when they do meeting a pakistani.. the outcome is completely different..
I know here in UK, Indian muslims who had irrational hatred for pakistan (mostly due to partition which made their own life bad) but mellowed after meeting pakistanis.
I also know gujrati muslims, who will avoid punjabi pakistanis.. they dont really get along well. (look down upon each other)

So yes, I understand .. the ummah things and all that blah. but I have pretty good understanding of how things work in real world.

@Developereo @HRK - Is this true ? Do Gujrati and Punjabis don't get along with each other ?

 

[RazPaK]

@Develpereo @HRK - Is this true ? Do Gujrati and Punjabis don't get along with each other ?

I went to a gas station owned by a Gujrati Muslim just today, and he hates Indian Hindus more than Zaid Hamid.

 

[livingdead]

@Developereo @HRK - Is this true ? Do Gujrati and Punjabis don't get along with each other ?

come on.. you know I maintain > 90 percent truth content in my posts. No need to ask for confirmation.
btw, you are better off asking a uk punjabi.... who you trust.

 

[Armstrong]

That does make sense.

After all, the whole idea behind the Indian Partition, was the Two Nation Theory.

Which states that the Muslims of the subcontinent are a separate nation, i.e. Pakistan.

So it makes sense that Indian Muslims would have good feelings towards Pakistan, cheer for the Pakistani cricket team, and wear shirts with their flag on it.

Its a bit more complicated than that; the idea that Muslims are a 'Nation' is different than the idea that Muslims are a 'Country' otherwise the Hui Muslims ought to be given a separate State too ? The Nation part means 'we've got something that are common between all Muslims so please learn to respect that and give us the right and the space to express them' !

Pakistan was not created because Muslims woke up and said 'Gimme a separate Country'; the idea was born out of our desire to be allowed to live our lives as we please in British India or whatever its successor states ought to be instead of being told that Islam is foreign to the Subcontinent, India and Hinduism are synonymous with each other, Hindu Culture and Values are going to be the dominant Culture and Values in an Undivided India and that we - the Muslims - are in fact the Hindu Mohemmedans of India !

That kind of racism has, probably, died down in India today but in the past it was big thing; I remember my maternal Grandfather telling me how when he was growing up in Bijnaur in the Indian State of UP, the Muslims were considered the lowest of the low - so wretched - that the Hindu Shopkeeper would give them Halwa (Sweet Dish) from afar otherwise if their skins touched with each other the Un-Clean Muslim would Soil the Hindu !

And my paternal Grandfather in Rawalpindi (Pakistan) used to tell me how when he was growing up his Hindu friend's mother used to give all of the kids milk in a metal cup while he - the only Muslim - used to get it in a glass cup; it was only later that he found the real purpose when he witnessed (thrice not once) how the Hindu lady used to break that glass each time because the unclean Muslim had drunk in it.

And this by-the-way when my paternal Grandfather was a huge supporter of the Congress Party and the idea of a United India but changed dramatically after what he saw and experienced the future of the Muslims of India himself under the Congress Ministry Rule '37-'39. After that he was a staunch supporter of Pakistan and Quaid-e-Azam !

Many....many more such personal accounts have been heard by all of us by people who lived through those times.

Is it any wonder that the Muslims voted almost exclusively for the Muslim League (the party that created Pakistan) in the '46 Elections in India ?

Even now according to the Sachar Committee Report the Muslims in India are in worst conditions than the Scheduled Castes and the only Muslim Majority State in India - Kashmir is dotted with mass-graves, horrendous human rights abuses, countless widows, half-widows and orphans.

I hope that now this kind of behavior has died out in India....in fact I'm sure that it probably has but back then it was huge and ironically enough the Muslims of the Muslim Minority Provinces (that form today's India) were much bigger supporters of Pakistan than us - the Muslims of the Majority Provinces were; with the Muslim League getting something like 90% plus Muslim Votes in those minority provinces - Not all of them could've been idiots ?

That being said the demand for greater acceptance of Muslims in India didn't start by 'Give us a separate country' it started with Constitutional Guarantees, Separate Electorates, the rights to make our own laws in Muslim Majority Provinces in a Federal Structure without the Center's dictation and finally the demand for Pakistan.

In fact as late as '46 the Muslim League accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan which talked about India in a Federal Structure with complete autonomy to the Provinces and if after a period of 10 years anyone felt that things weren't working out they could opt out of the Union.

The Muslim League accepted it at first but the Congress accepted it and later backtracked on it by saying that once India is free we have the right to amend the provisions of the Cabinet Mission Plan - So the Muslim League rejected this and demanded Pakistan because whatever the Congress meant it never said and whatever it said it never meant !

P.S So far as Indian Muslims are concerned; I don't care about them....they are Indians and we are Pakistanis !

Not for anything in the world would I give up Pakistan because without it I'd be selling corn on the side of some street in Srinagar or worse be killed in a trumped up encounter in Kashmir when demanding my rights !

 

[haviZsultan]

What is the percentage of Muslims serving in the Indian armed forces?

Less than 3%. 15% for the Punjabis or Sikhs.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Its a bit more complicated than that; the idea that Muslims are a 'Nation' is different than the idea that Muslims are a 'Country' otherwise the Hui Muslims ought to be given a separate State too ? The Nation part means 'we've got something that are common between all Muslims so please learn to respect that and give us the right and the space to express them' !

Pakistan was not created because Muslims woke up and said 'Gimme a separate Country'; the idea was born out of our desire to be allowed to live our lives as we please in British India or whatever its successor states ought to be instead of being told that Islam is foreign to the Subcontinent, India and Hinduism are synonymous with each other, Hindu Culture and Values are going to be the dominant Culture and Values in an Undivided India and that we - the Muslims - are in fact the Hindu Mohemmedans of India !

That kind of racism has, probably, died down in India today but in the past it was big thing; I remember my maternal Grandfather telling me how when he was growing up in Bijnaur in the Indian State of UP, the Muslims were considered the lowest of the low - so wretched - that the Hindu Shopkeeper would give them Halwa (Sweet Dish) from afar otherwise if their skins touched with each other the Un-Clean Muslim would Soil the Hindu !

And my paternal Grandfather in Rawalpindi (Pakistan) used to tell me how when he was growing up his Hindu friend's mother used to give all of the kids milk in a metal cup while he - the only Muslim - used to get it in a glass cup; it was only later that he found the real purpose when he witnessed (thrice not once) how the Hindu lady used to break that glass each time because the unclean Muslim had drunk in it.

And this by-the-way when my paternal Grandfather was a huge supporter of the Congress Party and the idea of a United India but changed dramatically after what he saw and experienced the future of the Muslims of India himself under the Congress Ministry Rule '37-'39. After that he was a staunch supporter of Pakistan and Quaid-e-Azam !

Many....many more such personal accounts have been heard by all of us by people who lived through those times.

Is it any wonder that the Muslims voted almost exclusively for the Muslim League (the party that created Pakistan) in the '46 Elections in India ?

Even now according to the Sachar Committee Report the Muslims in India are in worst conditions than the Scheduled Castes and the only Muslim Majority State in India - Kashmir is dotted with mass-graves, horrendous human rights abuses, countless widows, half-widows and orphans.

I hope that now this kind of behavior has died out in India....in fact I'm sure that it probably has but back then it was huge and ironically enough the Muslims of the Muslim Minority Provinces (that form today's India) were much bigger supporters of Pakistan than us - the Muslims of the Majority Provinces were; with the Muslim League getting something like 90% plus Muslim Votes in those minority provinces - Not all of them could've been idiots ?

That being said the demand for greater acceptance of Muslims in India didn't start by 'Give us a separate country' it started with Constitutional Guarantees, Separate Electorates, the rights to make our own laws in Muslim Majority Provinces in a Federal Structure without the Center's dictation and finally the demand for Pakistan.

In fact as late as '46 the Muslim League accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan which talked about India in a Federal Structure with complete autonomy to the Provinces and if after a period of 10 years anyone felt that things weren't working out they could opt out of the Union.

The Muslim League accepted it at first but the Congress accepted it and later backtracked on it by saying that once India is free we have the right to amend the provisions of the Cabinet Mission Plan - So the Muslim League rejected this and demanded Pakistan because whatever the Congress meant it never said and whatever it said it never meant !

P.S So far as Indian Muslims are concerned; I don't care about them....they are Indians and we are Pakistanis !

Not for anything in the world would I give up Pakistan because without it I'd be selling corn on the side of some street in Srinagar or worse be killed in a trumped up encounter in Kashmir when demanding my rights !

Insightful as always my friend.

I did a bit of reading on the Partition back in history class, but nothing that detailed.

 

[Armstrong]

Insightful as always my friend.

I did a bit of reading on the Partition back in history class, but nothing that detailed.

You can ask @Oscar @Secur @HRK and @Developereo too !

Though Oscar is so doom and gloom that it'll be a miracle that he'd say anything positive about this all; though I sympathize with him....I'm sure me walking away with all the beautiful ladies he had a crush on must've been hard for him and on a psychological level its made him antagonistic of us Kashmiris !

 

[third eye]

Wearing T shirts is bad habit?

I have seen many in Pakistan wearing American flag or British flag Tshirts, no body bats an eye.

Let them wear an Indian flag and watch the fun.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

You Pagans won't understand heart of a Muslim. I know Indian media and politicians try to demonize Pakistan. But do you think are Indian Muslims so stupid to beleive you people?

When something bad happens in Pakistan, we feel like something bad happened to us. Hindus start cheering when a bomb goes off in pakistan but we offer condelonces and hope they see good times. If you think only uneducated and poor Muslims support their fellow Muslims, you are mistaken. I personally know many ivy-league graduates who have immense respect for dawood ibrahmin for avenging babri and anti-muslim riots.

The sell-out muslims like @Razia Sultana @acetophenol fortunately form a minority.

Could you share their names please? if not they do not exist

 

[haviZsultan]

Good for your Nana and his children. It was not a crime to be supporting Pakistan movement and after Pakistan was created the best thing to do was to migrate to Pakistan. My village is in Tehsil Utraula distt Balrampur which was earlier in Gonda.

Well good for you.

So not very far from barabanki and there is no harrassment of muslims the way you are making it out to be. My uncles who live in village have such reputation that their words are honoured by the local police and administration. If they just tell the Thanedar that this boy has made a mistake and wont repeat, he is let go without any charges. So when someone tells me that we muslims are suffering in India, its not palatable to me. When its Dashahra mela or any Urs in the vicinity all communities participate. Its our choice whether to fight on one divergence and waste our life or live in harmony.

My grandfather was such a great person he has a mazaar dedicated to him. And he fully supported Pakistan.

As a muslim, many in India may have a soft corner for fellow muslims in pakistan or elsewhere but its irritating to know that pakistanis expect us to support them in the name of Ummah discarding grographical boundaries. But they dont understand that Pakistan is not the Ummah but its also a geographical boundary so if I have to support a geographical boundary I will always support my motherland.

It is my hope that in the future your views change as events unfold.

Even we had some relatives migrated to Pakistan and they used to come until i was a kid. half of the time they were regreting moving to Pakistan and rest of the time they would try to make us believe how we have become subservient to hindus and we would wonder how. Our people felt their pain but it was their choice.

See this is the thing some muslims on that side simply do not understand. What happens lets say there is another Gujarat genocide. Where will you go? What @mujhaidind clearly understands is that this country (Pakistan) was actually built for him and people like him. Pakistan was built for us.

Personally I have been trying to integrate in Pakistani society as a Pashtun, and there are issues regarding integration and terrorist organizations like the MQM have been born but Pakistan is our home. Lucknow Barabanki RohillaKhand Fatehpur Kakori all should have gone to Pakistan. You guys stayed behind only to protect what wealth you had or you could not move for various reasons. Otherwise 95% of UP muslims voted for the All India Muslim League and its plan of partition. You should ask elders in your family. At one time all UP muslims raucously supported Pakistan.