Af-Pak - Destined For Conflict

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Because the world does not support bullies, especially if a stronger nation tries to engulf lands from weaker nation?
Iraq and Kuwait, would be apt example.

India for one , will make sure, Pakistan does not get any part of Afghanistan, if required will open the second front on your Eastern borders and engulf Pakistan on two fronts.

Oh I'm sure ..

Go ahead .. We as per afghans are already doing that... We will bitxh slap you back to reality.... A country that claims Pak occupies its territory will back another troll country in case of war when it itself shys away from it when it comes to its own claimed territory...

 

[spinghar renacido]

Having no guarantors doesnt mean one can pull out whenever mood strikes. Plus Pakistan doesn't care what Afghanistan thinks or believes.

Afghanistan broke the UN law when it crossed UN recognized border in 1960 & 61.

why not, under which law one can't? without any guarantor nothing can stop you ( otherwise there would be no need of world bank as a guarantor in indus water treaty ). treaty was made because it benefited both parties and were made upon mutual consent of both, all the previous treatise were broken or modified because it was not acceptable to one party any more hence the need for another one.
Plus Pakistan doesn't care what Afghanistan thinks or believes.
this in itself shows the deep down fear you have inside as you are not able to explain your position legally and started chest thumping.

Fact is the border was demarcated from 1893 to 1896
The four commissions demarcated Seven different sections of the Durand Line from 1894 to 1896 as under:-

• Sir Richard Udny (British Side) and Sardar Ghulam Haider Khan (Afghan side) demarcated the border from Charkhao Pass (Chitral) upto Nawa Pass (Bajaur) via an agreement dated 9 April 1895. (Note: The region from Nawa Pass via Mohmand upto Sikaram peak remained disputed and was settled by the Rawalpindi Anglo-Afghan Agreement of 1919).
• J. Donald and Sardar Shireen Dil Khan demarcated the boundary from Sikaram peak to Laram peak (Tochi) via an agreement dated 21 November 1894.
• H.A Anderson with local Afghan Chiefs nominated by the Ameer demarcated two sections of the boundary; from Laram peak to Charkhil and onwards to Khwaja Khidr (Birmal) via two separate agreements both dated 15 April 1895.
• L. W. King with local Afghan Chiefs nominated by the Ameer demarcated the boundary from Khwaja Khidr to Domandi (Gomal) via an agreement dated 8 March 1895.
• A. H. McMahon with Sardar Gul Muhammad Khan demarcated the boundary from Domandi to New Chaman via an agreement dated 26 February 1895.
• A. H. McMahon with Sardar Muhammad Umar Khan demarcated the boundary from New Chaman to Koh-i-Malik Siah at the tri-junction with Iran via an agreemnt dated 13 May 1896

fact is you are coming late to the party, first this has nothing to do with as how should we weight the durand line agreement now and it's legal position now, second the last treaty of rawalpindi in 1919 actually made all the past treaties null and void (this in itself one of the clause) and the last treaty was only binding in nature. only the last treaty of rawalpind hold worth now, all other are useless and have no legal worth. if you are going to discuss this controversial and highly important subject then one should expect a little research from you.

And About FATA, you may want to read up on results of NWFP referendum & decisions of the Jirgas of FATA. But Then Again, i dont expect some one who starts the conversation with Bacha to understand.

linking NWFP referendum with FATA implies you want to change the subject. what has NWFP referendum to do any thing with FATA?
as far as the jirga of fata concerned , then FATA had no central authority like that of princely state swat, implies that there was no one to decide the fate of tribal, all such arrangements and jirgas are controversial and considered unilateral decision on behalf of pakistan.
when Jinnah first visited tribal he called them brotherly people across the border and did not considered them part of his domain.his speech is one the record.

 

[Shapur]

@Asfandyar Bhittani @Samandri

Your assumptions about 1961 Bajaur incursions are not accurate. I am a mod on pashtunforums and this issue has been discussed in much detail to dispel the myths perpetuated in Pakistan.

In 1960 a tribal fight was going on between Khan of Khar (an area in Bajaur) and Khan of Jandul (area of Bajaur whose governor was son of Nawab of Dir) + Nawab of Dir . Pakistan was supporting Khan of Khar while Nawab of Dir was supported by Afghanistan. The so called "Patritotic Bajauries" were the men of Khan of Khar who repulsed an Afghan lashkar with the help of paramilitary scouts. Nawab of Dir had issues with Pakistan and after this Pakistan arrested Nawab of Dir and his son, and occupied his territory which was never administered by Pakistan before.

After this ,

Snippet from "Pak-Afghanistan relations" by Dr.Kanwal Kaur

The snippet is taken from book "Afghanistan" by professor Loius Dupree, published in 1973

 

[Imad.Khan]

There is already a decades old movement for Pashtunistan in Pakistan.

Why would the world let you carve out a portion of Afghanistan to include in Pakistan ?

What? there is a Pukhtunistan movement in Pakistan? howcome no one told me about it?

 

[spinghar renacido]

Therefore the principles and history that applies to the northern Afghan border also applies to the southern Afghan border.

under which law

 

[Indus Pakistan]

And @spinghar renacido if we start trying to bring back alive former empires like this crazy idea of recreating the 1762 borders - it would involve all of Pakistan, part of North East Iran, bits of Turkmenistan along with bits from Uzbekistan and Tajikistan being integrated. That is madness.

Can you imagine Britain? It could clai 2/3rds of earth as it's former empire lands. Or the Turks claming all of Middle East and Balkans? Hell we could even have the Greeks claiming all of Turkey, Iran Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan as Alexander the Great conqurered all these regions and were part of Greek Empire.

Why not instead just focus on building up Afghanistan and creating better lives for everybody? And if you can't then first ask for your stolen Panjdeh back or grab it by force from Turkmenistan and after you have gotten that back come knocking on Pakistan's border with a large army with few nuclear missiles.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

there is no question of permanent border, under no law the original line treaty can become permanent border just because pakistan wishes. pakistan inherited the treaty not borders. my friend considering it a border and treating it as a border just like pakistan is doing now unilaterally is in itself a violation of the original durand line agreement.

Unilaterally or not ... A country which can't even control much of its own territory from Taliban shouldn't open up useless fronts .. Specially where not even a single country supports it...

The reality is that the entire world regards Durrand line as an international border between. Pak and Afghanistan....

Afghanistan can't do anything to change it...

Better recognise the border and move on.

i am not calling these a facebook material rather the one like Afghanistan official stance is that it is valid for 100 years, and other moral arguments about the line dividing pashtuns. these points don't hold any water, neither as such Afghanistan legal stance.
your arguments that FATA is part of pakistan because paksitan flags flying there is such a goat shit,make a habit of sayings things from a legal perspective. and we should not talk about PAF bombing FATA. right?

He has posted sources unlike your claims .. You are acting like a child .. Crying "fake" with nothing to back up your claims!

As for dividing Pashtuns .... Let's not kid ourselves ... Pak Pashtuns don't think that way and the afghans who live or visit Pak know that very much! Even your national cricketer got beat up at Peshwar when he tried bad mouthing Pakistan!

https://www.google.com.pk/amp/tribune.com.pk/story/1127587/scuffle-ground-afghan-cricket-player-beaten-spectators-uop/?amp=1

You are a war torn failed state which offers nothing .. Nobody would even consider joining you..

And historically it has always been smaller areas/territories that have merged with bigger countries... If anything there are more chances of Afghanistan becoming a province of Pak than KPK joining Afghanistan... There are more Pashtuns in KPK alone than the entire population of Afghanistan.. Where Pashtuns make 45%.

As for FATA ... That's not it my friend ... Take a look at the global map ... Our constitution .. FATA ,PATA are our autonomously governed territories....

 

[Indus Pakistan]

under which law

Okay you tell me from a legal or historical footing how is the northern boundary (Ridgeway Line) any differant from the southern boundary (Duran Line) please?

Ps. Guys let's keep this discussion real cordial. I really want to see where we can take this discussion to by using reasoning and logic.

 

[Imad.Khan]

lol where is it? bharti kunni even TTP doesn't talk of pashtunistan .. Even Gen Wahid Gul was a Pashtun ... The man hated by afghans and Indians alike... Or how about Sartaj Aziz who is from Mardan.... I can even count a dozen Pashtun ISI,Army,navy and airforce Chiefs ...

You forgot to include Sports and Arshad chai wala

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

You forgot to include Sports and Arshad chai wala

Jahangir khan,Jansher Khan,Imran,afridi where few of the several great figures we worshipped growing up in the 90s.

 

[Osiris]

Oh I'm sure ..

Go ahead .. We as per afghans are already doing that... We will bitxh slap you back to reality.... A country that claims Pak occupies its territory will back another troll country in case of war when it itself shys away from it when it comes to its own claimed territory...

I seriously doubt your ability to do that, You can hardly fight India on single front. How will you fight both Afghanistan and India, The reality is, Pakistan is 1/10th the size of India, where it really matters.

Pakistan invading Afghanistan for strategic depth would rather ensure strategic encirclement of Pakistan.


As of now Afghans are claiming parts of Pakistan, India does not support that. Because Durand line is British agreement, It is as valid/invalid as Macmohan line.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Okay you tell me from a legal or historical footing how is the northern boundary (Ridgeway Line) any differant from the southern boundary (Durand Line) please?

I ask the question again please. Give a simple step by step answer why one is differant from the other?


@Osiris Indeed the following are in the same histo-legal bracket -

McMahon Line - Sino-India border
Duran Line - Af-Pak border
Ridgeway Line - Northern Afghan border. Presently Af-Tajik/Uzbek/Turkmen border

 

[spinghar renacido]

These type of issues are decided in two ways :-

unable to quote your message as it says it contain some link

this, now you need to read between the lines..
his majesty..... has seen with regret the disagreements between the Governments of Pakistan and Afghanistan about the status of the territories on the North West Frontier. It is His Majesty's Government's view that Pakistan is in international law the inheritor of the rights and duties of the old Government of India and of his Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom in these territories and that the Durand Line is the international frontier.
international frontier, right ? there is vast difference between frontier and international border. research the world frontier in context with colonel era, and see for your self what does it actually mean. the word has geo politically very different meaning

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

@Asfandyar Bhittani @Samandri

Your assumptions about 1961 Bajaur incursions are not accurate. I am a mod on pashtunforums and this issue has been discussed in much detail to dispel the myths perpetuated in Pakistan.

In 1960 a tribal fight was going on between Khan of Khar (an area in Bajaur) and Khan of Jandul (area of Bajaur whose governor was son of Nawab of Dir) + Nawab of Dir . Pakistan was supporting Khan of Khar while Nawab of Dir was supported by Afghanistan. The so called "Patritotic Bajauries" were the men of Khan of Khar who repulsed an Afghan lashkar with the help of paramilitary scouts. Nawab of Dir had issues with Pakistan and after this Pakistan arrested Nawab of Dir and his son, and occupied his territory which was never administered by Pakistan before.

After this ,

Snippet from "Pak-Afghanistan relations" by Dr.Kanwal Kaur

The snippet is taken from book "Afghanistan" by professor Loius Dupree, published in 1973

I'd take the word of an Indian with a bucket of salt...

 

[Asfandyar Bhittani]

What? there is a Pukhtunistan movement in Pakistan? howcome no one told me about it?

Forget That, No one told us that we, The Pakistani pashtuns, were leading it.