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Kargil war was a total disaster, claims Gen Majeed Malik

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We could not achieve what we set out to do because of disparity b/w the resolve of the military and the civilian leadership. Our civilian leadership, even when India conducted those Nuclear tests in May 1998, was unwilling to respond in kind and had to be forced by the military to conduct test of our own.

I always wonder how you guys are ready with excuses. In 1971 your soldiers fought like lions but were led by sheeps and in 1999 your civilian leadership let you down. Common nothing is ideal in this world. We all have to do the best we can from what we have. Your civilian leadership is chosen by your own people. Its not like we forced them on you.


But, taking nothing away from you, we failed in Kargil despite military victory. However, when we have the guts to accept that Kargil eventually was a victory for India, you should have the moral courage to accept that 4k-5k fighters gave 30k-35k Indian military + 10 squadrons if IAF a run for their money and could still not be dislodged from all peaks.

Sir, if you know anything about mountain warfare then you should know that the ratio of attackers has to be much much larger than defenders to mount a successful attack. You troops didn't achieve anything out of this world. Any professional army will be able to hold a high ground against a higher number of attackers. I am sure your soldiers fought bravely but its funny how you guys are making such a big deal out of it. Big deal would if your troops can do the same on the plains. We did it in Longewala in 1971. Now beat that.

Even today we hold on to peaks at Kargil, kinda rubbishes your claims...doesn't it?

Can you please list the name of peaks with neutral source clearly stating that they were occupied by IA earlier and are now with PA since 1999. Otherwise I will cosider this your wet dream. And please don't mention 5353. We have already discussed it.
 
Hi,

Kargil was a major success for pakistan---. It told the world---with minimum capabilities a dedicated military force can take on a massive power in a hostile environment and hold it back for awhile and let the political powers do their thing---. In this case---the political power houses were 'chicken'.

It also showed pakistan---that if the military was better equipped in upto date weapons systems---india could not have done much other than go to a full fledged war---.

This should have been an eye opener for pakistanis and they should have focused on strengthening their short-comings---like the air force and surface to air counter measures---.

But instead of focussing in the right direction and thinking like israel after the 73 war---pakistanis started blaming each other---.

These young indian kids and retd indian army people can come and say whatever---but the thrashing that the indian mililitary got at the hands of such an ill-eqipped endeavour was a joke amongst the world militaries---.

The weaknesses of the indian army and its might were blown open---in the middle of the skirmish---indian army ran out of 155mm shells---.

Sir,
No body in this world is perfect. We all make mistakes. The important thing is to learn from them and improve. Countries and institutions (IA in this case) are no different. They are made of people ultimately. The important things is to learn from these mistakes and improve.

We made many mistakes before and during Kargil. The biggest mistake was trusting Pakistan and abandoning Peaks in Winter something that is done by both sides. Second one is offcourse the big time intelligence failure. Third was the amount time it took us to realize the full scale of incursion. Fourth was the abject state of our military. Hardly any modernization of IA happened in the last two decade leading to Kargil.

But whatever the mistakes we were able to achieve our objectives and are learning from our mistakes and improving trying to plug these holes. Massive modernization of IA started only after Kargil and that is a very good sign.

Pakistanis---if they had any brains---would have looked at it this way---if with such minimal resources---we held off indian military for so many days---what would have happened if our resources would have been ten folds---.

My question would be who is stopping you from getting ten folds resources? Why didn't Pakistani generals planned logistics. Why weren't your F 16s in the air providing air support and countering IAF. A war plan without taking logistics into account is the most stupid war plan won't you agree.
 
Sir,
No body in this world is perfect. We all make mistakes. The important thing is to learn from them and improve. Countries and institutions (IA in this case) are no different. They are made of people ultimately. The important things is to learn from these mistakes and improve.

We made many mistakes before and during Kargil. The biggest mistake was trusting Pakistan and abandoning Peaks in Winter something that is done by both sides. Second one is offcourse the big time intelligence failure. Third was the amount time it took us to realize the full scale of incursion. Fourth was the abject state of our military. Hardly any modernization of IA happened in Wthe last two decade leading to Kargil.

But whatever the mistakes we were able to achieve our objectives and are learning from our mistakes and improving trying to plug these holes. Massive modernization of IA started only after Kargil and that is a very good sign..

We should thank mushraff for that!!!!!
 
The reason that Kargil was a disaster for Pakistan & a very lucky break (even with the tragic loss of so many soldiers) is that it put a brake on any immediate resolution of the Kashmir dispute. Any resolution of Kashmir in 1999-2000 would have involved substantial land being ceded to Pakistan. While the Chenab formula may not have exactly been on the table, it still would have been a large concession. Ironically, the Pakistan army saved India from having to cede territory. It ended any negotiations with Pakistan on the Kashmir dispute and after Agra , 9/11 & the subsequent attack on the Indian Parliament, it put any & all negotiations into cold storage till 2003. The NDA's defeat in the 2004 elections further slowed matters. During that time, the Indian economy finally started picking up some real steam & with improvement on the ground, India's position got much better to the extent that there was no more talk of territory changing hands & only greater autonomy & loose borders were being discussed. Pakistan again helped with 26/11 (again notwithstanding the tragic loss of life) and put the Kashmir discussion into cold storage which has yet to be completely brought out even after 4 years. During this time, India's position, both economically & on the world stage had significantly improved while Pakistan's has deteriorated substantially.

...and after all this Pakistanis are consoling themselves with a solitary peak somewhere when they might have had a lot more by negotiations. Lucky us! I believe the Indian nation owes the Pakistani army its deepest gratitude and appreciation for Kargil. Many thanks!
 
I always wonder how you guys are ready with excuses. In 1971 your soldiers fought like lions but were led by sheeps and in 1999 your civilian leadership let you down. Common nothing is ideal in this world. We all have to do the best we can from what we have. Your civilian leadership is chosen by your own people. Its not like we forced them on you.

1971 was a war b/w 2 Pakistans where you only played second fiddle to half a Pakistan (now Bangaladesh). But in Kargil, I have agreed that we could not achieve our objectives, how many times do I have to accept that India won?



Sir, if you know anything about mountain warfare then you should know that the ratio of attackers has to be much much larger than defenders to mount a successful attack. You troops didn't achieve anything out of this world. Any professional army will be able to hold a high ground against a higher number of attackers. I am sure your soldiers fought bravely but its funny how you guys are making such a big deal out of it. Big deal would if your troops can do the same on the plains. We did it in Longewala in 1971. Now beat that.

Yes, I agree that we were at an advantage but IA was assisted by 10 squadrons of Indian Jets who were bombing our positions day in and day out so that must balance the equation a lot, no?

The battle of Longewala was a proud battle in Indian military history but still, even in that battle you had the advantage of IAF jets so that kinda evens the odds again, no?



Can you please list the name of peaks with neutral source clearly stating that they were occupied by IA earlier and are now with PA since 1999. Otherwise I will cosider this your wet dream. And please don't mention 5353. We have already discussed it.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if you or some general/retired general next claimed that you were never on tiger hill either. I mean, all we have is claims and counter claims, however the article that I posted was from your own side so have a look at it......5353 is the most important strategic Indian peak that we hold today so it tops any discussion on Kargil.
 
I Wonder how many pages have been written on kargil on PDF.... Still no agreement???... Well accoridng to me..

Kargil was a lesson for india -

1) How bad is india's intelligence capability
2) What will happen when u trust pakistan start working towards settling issues ( poor vajpayee )
3) Pakistan elected govt has no power and it is waste of time to discuss with them ( the real power is military ) ( i dont think india has ever used the learnt lesson becos now also they go and discuss with their govt dono for what purpose? and what will be the out come?)
4) Boffors guns is a useful gun ( we always thought that the gun is a useless one becos of the bribe involved with it)
5) How to use diplomacy to defeat an enemy
6) How to win a war with out crossing the boarder
7) How to respect an enemy army men and behave like a respectable army ( They have performed the last rights of enemy army men according to their religion even after pakistan govt rejected to accept their bodies stating they are Mujahidheens)
8) How to fight a war on most adverse condition recapture the land back - Pakistan is still trying to do that for past 23 years in siachin and never could do it.
9) How to use effectively air force in one of the most demanding hights in the world.
10) Even after defeating pakistan comprehensively how difficult to convince pakistani people about their defeat!!!!

Its 13 years over already... Entire world knows the result.... Why are we still fighting about this... Lets move on....
.

1. Ok
2. It was during the reign of the same Army general that support to Kashmiri Mujahideen stopped altogether, for the sake of peace.
3. It's changing slowly. But the ultimate power in Pakistan is held by the US of A. So if you really need anything from us, go to uncle sam.
4. Ok
5. Agreed!
6. Agreed!
7. Total BS! Staged dramas and propaganda, nothing more.
8. BS again, Militarily IA + IAF could do squat to reclaim anything at all and had it been an intention of the Pakistani side to stay put as India does in Siachin then Pakistan would have used PAF to counter IAF and would have setup supply/logistical lines as well as backups. Most importantly, Pakistan would not have ordered the NLI+Mujahideen to retreat!
9. Only without any opposition, had there been opposition only then we could have established the effectiveness of the AF.
10. Well, you actually have to find a military victory to convince Pakistani people. When your Army Chief is not so certain, how can Pakistanis be?

And that's exactly what I say, the whole world knows what really happened and how it happened. They also know what happened after the attacks on Indian Parliament etc. So why should we keep discussing things and answering Indian 'side' of the stories again and again.

The reason that Kargil was a disaster for Pakistan & a very lucky break (even with the tragic loss of so many soldiers) is that it put a brake on any immediate resolution of the Kashmir dispute. Any resolution of Kashmir in 1999-2000 would have involved substantial land being ceded to Pakistan. While the Chenab formula may not have exactly been on the table, it still would have been a large concession. Ironically, the Pakistan army saved India from having to cede territory. It ended any negotiations with Pakistan on the Kashmir dispute and after Agra , 9/11 & the subsequent attack on the Indian Parliament, it put any & all negotiations into cold storage till 2003. The NDA's defeat in the 2004 elections further slowed matters. During that time, the Indian economy finally started picking up some real steam & with improvement on the ground, India's position got much better to the extent that there was no more talk of territory changing hands & only greater autonomy & loose borders were being discussed. Pakistan again helped with 26/11 (again notwithstanding the tragic loss of life) and put the Kashmir discussion into cold storage which has yet to be completely brought out even after 4 years. During this time, India's position, both economically & on the world stage had significantly improved while Pakistan's has deteriorated substantially.

...and after all this Pakistanis are consoling themselves with a solitary peak somewhere when they might have had a lot more by negotiations. Lucky us! I believe the Indian nation owes the Pakistani army its deepest gratitude and appreciation for Kargil. Many thanks!

Yeah, loss of lives of so many soldiers is tragic especially when the country runs out of coffins! I wonder how many of the 35k soldiers actually returned for the country to have run out of coffins!
 
When the country has to disown their men of uniform and label them as rag tag terrorist then you know the reality of conflict was quite an embarrassment. The general who led the men to this trap was never bought to any kind of justice while abandoned men fought without supplies until they met their final fate.
 
Banglai je kotha bolen kon banglai bolen! kotota improvement kolkata basir. akhono to Mumbai r pa chete jete hoi. Bangla medium ar pora lakha to late gase. koidin por to banglai hawa hoye jabe, Bangladeshi der chitai apnadeer shikkhito korbo. Chinta koiren na.
haha mumbai amader desh,pa chat te kono osubidha nei amader,r bangla medium'er pora lekha late utlo,ke boleche??? ei bangla medium'e pora docter'der dekhate apnader desher shoto shoto manush roj ase kolkatai...apnader desh'e bhalo hospital'o nei...r west bengal ekhono onek bochor ache,kintu tar aagei "east bengal" hawa hobe for sure...r apnara sob "afghanistan"er chintai sikhito hoben :rofl:

When the country has to disown their men of uniform and label them as rag tag terrorist then you know the reality of conflict was quite an embarrassment. The general who led the men to this trap was never bought to any kind of justice while abandoned men fought without supplies until they met their final fate.

super-duper like...this is the most truthful and best comment in the entire thread
 
Hi,

Kargil was a major success for pakistan---. It told the world---with minimum capabilities a dedicated military force can take on a massive power in a hostile environment and hold it back for awhile and let the political powers do their thing---. In this case---the political power houses were 'chicken'.

It also showed pakistan---that if the military was better equipped in upto date weapons systems---india could not have done much other than go to a full fledged war---.

This should have been an eye opener for pakistanis and they should have focused on strengthening their short-comings---like the air force and surface to air counter measures---.

But instead of focussing in the right direction and thinking like israel after the 73 war---pakistanis started blaming each other---.

These young indian kids and retd indian army people can come and say whatever---but the thrashing that the indian mililitary got at the hands of such an ill-eqipped endeavour was a joke amongst the world militaries---.

The weaknesses of the indian army and its might were blown open---in the middle of the skirmish---indian army ran out of 155mm shells---.

Pakistanis---if they had any brains---would have looked at it this way---if with such minimal resources---we held off indian military for so many days---what would have happened if our resources would have been ten folds---.

Mastan you make a crucial mistake.
The reason why it took so many deaths of the Indian military to clear the mountain tops was not because of military incapability, it was because of the policy of GoI.

As the correct reports of the true nature of Kargil came in, that it was the PA that was manning the tops and not terrorists as originally thought, the first report and operations that the Indian Military requested the GoI was to cross the LoC, surround the mountains tops, interdict their supply lines completely and then conduct the ground campaign against the intruders.

That meant a full scale war and the Indian military asked permission for it. The military was denied this. This is the most basic 101 in any mountain war operations. The Indian political leadership decided that the gains of fighting from one side and charging up the mountain from one side gave more international and political benefit than what made military sense - what the military first suggested.

The GoI knew and the military knew the losses of taking mountain tops from frontal assaults would mean very high losses. It was deemed that this is acceptable for the political benefits accrued.

Now if you think Pakistan could pull a kargil on a much larger scale - a competent and trained military force against a large enemy and still accomplish the ratio's that PA managed, you would be wrong.
In a full scale war, the political leadership of India will not impose such one sided conditions on the Indian military.

The thrashing that you refer to that the Indian military got was because it was frontally charging a well entrenched and bunkered and supplied enemy up a mountain top - from one direction only. Remove the limits put up on India by GoI of the day, and you would have had very different kill ratio's.


Almost any military force would achieve similar results, 10:1 is a standard basic considered for charging mountains. However, once IAF wisened up after initial setbacks and started using LGB's the situation changed.
In anycase, the PA had to withdraw not because of political pressure, it was because holding those posts had become untenable in the face of constant bombing and attacks. The political deal gave PA cover to withdraw.

So when you do the analysis, do take into account the military capabilities and the limitations imposed on Indian military as well. Had the Indian military been given a free hand, Pakistan would have been hard pressed on all fronts and - losing on all fronts.
 
Hi,

Kargil was a major success for pakistan---. It told the world---with minimum capabilities a dedicated military force can take on a massive power in a hostile environment and hold it back for awhile and let the political powers do their thing---. In this case---the political power houses were 'chicken'.

It also showed pakistan---that if the military was better equipped in upto date weapons systems---india could not have done much other than go to a full fledged war---.

This should have been an eye opener for pakistanis and they should have focused on strengthening their short-comings---like the air force and surface to air counter measures---.

But instead of focussing in the right direction and thinking like israel after the 73 war---pakistanis started blaming each other---.

These young indian kids and retd indian army people can come and say whatever---but the thrashing that the indian mililitary got at the hands of such an ill-eqipped endeavour was a joke amongst the world militaries---.

The weaknesses of the indian army and its might were blown open---in the middle of the skirmish---indian army ran out of 155mm shells---.

Pakistanis---if they had any brains---would have looked at it this way---if with such minimal resources---we held off indian military for so many days---what would have happened if our resources would have been ten folds---.


Quoted for the truth.
 
Quoted for the truth.

All Pakistani Didnt know that they have only one week fuel left, if india goes for one more week, entire PAK will came to stand still, Power plants will shut down and after a month food shortages will happen.

reality bites thats why PAK Amry didn't want to conduct enquiry and didnt want to talk, if they win what they are hiding then?

PAK didnt have the Guts , after that IAF destroyed Navy Plane what didnt pak able to done ? nothing other then wimping....
 
...and after all this Pakistanis are consoling themselves with a solitary peak somewhere when they might have had a lot more by negotiations. Lucky us! I believe the Indian nation owes the Pakistani army its deepest gratitude and appreciation for Kargil. Many thanks!

Oh its not just Kargil. We are extremely thankful to the Pakistani Army for for gifting us half of Jammu & Kashmir in 1948 and our 14 day victory in East Pakistan in 1971, made possible only thanks to their 'awesome' activities there.
 
1971 was a war b/w 2 Pakistans where you only played second fiddle to half a Pakistan (now Bangaladesh). But in Kargil, I have agreed that we could not achieve our objectives, how many times do I have to accept that India won?
I am sure even people at your end will accept that our role was much more that playing second fiddle...Anyways Off Topic so let's not digress...I might be mistaken but i thought you were saying that Kargil was a military victory for Pakistan...Anyhow since you have rightly said here that India won the Kargil war there is nothing much to talk...So let me move on to the rest of the post.

Yes, I agree that we were at an advantage but IA was assisted by 10 squadrons of Indian Jets who were bombing our positions day in and day out so that must balance the equation a lot, no?

No it doesn't and once again i would request you to study the terrain...it certainly helped us in cutting down the supplies and that was the major impact but it was not powerful enough to smoke out your men until they had the ammunition/ration and will to fight.. IA still had to fight the enemy head on where even a misfired bullet could easily result a fatal injury on our side.

The battle of Longewala was a proud battle in Indian military history but still, even in that battle you had the advantage of IAF jets so that kinda evens the odds again, no?

Look the pride of that battle was 120 men holding on to their positions irrespective of the fact that hunter's could not have helped them in the night. PA could have easily run over them especially given the fact that they were backed by tank regiment...so no i don't think the odds were even...


Well, I wouldn't be surprised if you or some general/retired general next claimed that you were never on tiger hill either. I mean, all we have is claims and counter claims, however the article that I posted was from your own side so have a look at it......5353 is the most important strategic Indian peak that we hold today so it tops any discussion on Kargil.

Look 5353 has been discussed many times on PDF as well so don't have the appetite for it anymore...However i will just say that if it is the most strategic peak then good for you...However just because you are holding on to that Peak doesn't necessarily mean that you won the war even in Military terms(if that is what you want to claim by bringing in that discussion)...
 
Yes, I agree that we were at an advantage but IA was assisted by 10 squadrons of Indian Jets who were bombing our positions day in and day out so that must balance the equation a lot, no?
Sir I don't know from where you are getting this 10 Squadron number when the only jets useful to IA at that height were the Mirage and we hardly have 3 squadrons of them. Our Mig 27 were totally found wanting at the heights of Kargil so were useless. Rest of our planes were in the air waiting for you F16s which never came. They didn't play any supporting role for IA.

The battle of Longewala was a proud battle in Indian military history but still, even in that battle you had the advantage of IAF jets so that kinda evens the odds again, no?

See that's the whole point I am trying to make. Logistics!!!
What do you call a plan that doesn't take into account Logistics. E.g. the fact that you didn't have spares for your F-16. What kind of General disregards the aftermaths when the incursion will be discovered. Its very easy to get into anyone's empty house. The courage is hold it and claim it for your own and not run away. In any other country the guy who hatched and executed this plan would have been either court marshalled or hanged. In yours he became your president for 10 years

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if you or some general/retired general next claimed that you were never on tiger hill either. I mean, all we have is claims and counter claims, however the article that I posted was from your own side so have a look at it......5353 is the most important strategic Indian peak that we hold today so it tops any discussion on Kargil.

Well then we will wait till that revelation comes. Till then congratulations for capturing 5353.
 
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