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Originalism and abortion: YLH

SoulSpokesman

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https://dailytimes.com.pk/397392/originalism-and-abortion/

Last week I had an interesting discussion with an old American friend of Pakistani origin on problems facing Pakistan. When I pointed out some of the problems faced by the US especially after a series of reactionary laws on the abortion issue, she waxed eloquent about the inherently superior founding principles of the US Constitution. As someone who has drunk deep at the fountain of constitutional law, I tried to explain to her that any constitution is only as good as the judges who interpret it and that there was no such thing as founding principles. I explained that American founding fathers, ultimately white colonial settlers most of whom were slave owners, could not have imagined providing principles that governed all generations to come. Many of them freely admitted it.

Despite the first 10 amendments – the bill of rights as it were- US saw slavery, Jim Crow laws and religiously inspired blue laws. Many of them remained on the books till the mid to late 20th century. This was because many lawyers and judges did argue from time to time that the constitution had to be interpreted according to the original intent of the founding fathers and framers of the constitution. Therefore in 1857 the US Supreme Court ruled, by a majority of 7 to 2, that Mr. Dred Scott, a slave, could not claim US citizenship because he was of African ancestry. Chief Justice Taney ruled in the landmark case that the US Constitution did not confer citizenship on people of African descent and therefore Mr. Dred Scott could not claim freedom as a matter of right. Taney had come to this conclusion on the basis of the theory of Originalism and he was right according to it. The founding fathers of the US by and large had not intended to confer citizenship on anyone other than the white settlers and arguably of Christian belief. Even the word “religion” was debated and while Thomas Jefferson (who was not amongst the framers of the Constitution) notably did include other religious traditions in his conception of religious liberty, it was argued with some justification that the free exercise of religion clause of the first amendment was limited to Christianity and possibly Protestant Christianity. It was not until the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution (1868) that citizenship was finally extended to everyone else. It was not until the 19th Amendment passed in 1920 that women got a right to vote – something which denied to them despite the so-called inherently superior founding principles.

The theory of Originalism holds essentially that constitution must always be interpreted according to the original intent of the framers and that if there is need to change the constitution, there is always the amendment process. This poses a rather large problem when you consider the extremely difficult process that the US Constitution sets out for amendment. Unlike the unwritten British Constitution which can easily amended, the US Constitution requires 2/3rds majority in both houses of Congress followed by a ratification of 3/4th of all state legislatures. There is also a convoluted method of constitutional convention but none of the amendments have been passed that way. In its 230-year history, US Constitution has been amended only 27 times and 10 of those were the original bill of rights amendments passed soon after the Constitution was made.

This brings us to the burning issue of the anti-abortion laws that are being proposed and passed. The conservatives in the US are passing pushing forth with these laws with only one intention – so that they may be challenged before the Supreme Court. Supreme Court has been packed with Originalists and a majority ruling will likely overturn Roe v Wade, the famous 1973 case. Roe v Wade had held that the 14th Amendment accorded protection to a woman’s right to decide whether or not to have an abortion. The Supreme Court in 1973 had expanded the meaning of the due process clause and privacy to come up with its reasoning. Going by the original intent of the framers of the 14th Amendment, this decision would not hold up. Hence with Originalists in the driving seat in the US Supreme Court, the conservatives want to undo Roe v Wade. This is what the debate is about really and it is likely that they will succeed. The founding principles now do not seem as attractive as some would want to make them out to be.

The alternative theory – one favoured by the liberals- is that the Constitution evolves with time and takes on new meanings. This is the theory of the living constitution. It is broadly synonymous to the principle of Ijtehad in Islamic legal tradition. In the case of Islam though, our own Originalists (no doubt with good intentions) had closed the door on Ijtehad definitively about 800 years ago. They had also discounted the use of Greek knowledge and logic leading to decay which ultimately led to where the Muslim world is. Hence what you have now is an ossified shell of a once vibrant and dynamic religion. The same thing is likely to happen to the US Constitution if the Originalists prevail. When you speak of original intent it all comes down to interpretation of history. More often than not it leads to march of humanity being brought to a halt in so far as that jurisdiction is concerned. The debate on the founding principles of the US may well be the undoing of the progressive and creative spirit that made what the country is today.

Regards
 
Bull shit from librals ... Why bringing Islam here?

Muslims are in current situation because of abandoning the holy scripture and not for following it ... Can you please name a single country where Quran and Hadith are being followed as constitution ? Even in KSA the rulling elite is not liable to follow Islam otherwise the criminal law implemented is of Islam and look at the crime rate ... its almost nil
 
A liberal, secular Pakistan. Pakistan of our beloved Qaids dream!

But Pakistan was dreamt by Iqbal and not by Jinnah.

Why does this Pir who has ideological differences to the state want to impose his views on 220 million people? Just because he hails from Pir family or is a Brahmin?

Is it because in Secular system he can brainwash his disciples without fear of law?

Bull shit from librals ... Why bringing Islam here?

Muslims are in current situation because of abandoning the holy scripture and not for following it ... Can you please name a single country where Quran and Hadith are being followed as constitution ? Even in KSA the rulling elite is not liable to follow Islam otherwise the criminal law implemented is of Islam and look at the crime rate ... its almost nil

dude in KSA they have handed out death penalties to princes and royal family.

You cannot deliver justice for a petty theft in Pakistan.
 
dude in KSA they have handed out death penalties to princes and royal family.

You cannot deliver justice for a petty theft in Pakistan.

And what do you call supporting Bahrain and Dubai for all the anti-islamic activities being performed ?

Those death penalties are more politically motivated rather than crime related
 
And what do you call supporting Bahrain and Dubai for all the anti-islamic activities being performed ?

Those death penalties are more politically motivated rather than crime related

They are happening over there. Worry about the ones happening in Pakistan.

theka nahi liya apne duniya ka. apni saffen durust karo pehle khud
 
Bull shit from librals ... Why bringing Islam here?

Muslims are in current situation because of abandoning the holy scripture and not for following it ...

... Pakistan was dreamt by Iqbal...

Well, the liberal Pir is saying about Islam/Ijtihad exactly what Mufakkir e Pakistan Allama Muhammad Iqbal had stated 90 years ago.

.... eternal principles when they are understood to exclude all possibilities of change which, according to the Qur’an, is one of the greatest “signs” of God, tend to immobilize what is essentially mobile in its nature. The failure of Europe in political and social sciences illustrates the former principle, the immobility of Islam during the last five hundred years illustrates the latter. What then is the principle of movement in the structure of Islam? This is known as Ijtihād.
...

AND

The closing of the door of Ijtihād is pure fiction suggested partly by the crystallization of legal thought in Islam, and partly by that intellectual laziness which, especially in the period of spiritual decay, turns great thinkers into idols. If some of the later doctors have upheld this fiction, modern Islam is not bound by this voluntary surrender of intellectual independence
http://www.allamaiqbal.com/works/prose/english/reconstruction/


So, Iqbal too believed that unlike Western 'Originalism', Islamic political thought was essentially dynamic (that had become static because of the perceived closure of doors of Ijtihad and intellectual laziness), implying that the liberal theory of living constitution was inline with Islamic political thought.

Now, would you start hurling insults/abuses at Allama Iqbal too ?




A liberal, secular Pakistan. Pakistan of our beloved Qaids dream!

Regards

Liberal?, yes
Secular?, Islam and secularism are compatible. We don't have to remove Islam from the constitution to create Jinnah's Pakistan. The 1951 Libyan Constitution is a perfect example of what Jinnah wanted for Pakistan .....

The 1951 Libyan Constitution proclaims Islam as the state religion but formally sets out rights such as equality before the law as well as equal civil and political rights, equal opportunities, and an equal responsibility for public duties and obligations "without distinction of religion, belief, race, language, wealth, kinship or political or social opinions"
 
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Well, the liberal Pir is saying about Islam/Ijtihad exactly what Mufakkir e Pakistan Allama Muhammad Iqbal had stated 90 years ago.

.... eternal principles when they are understood to exclude all possibilities of change which, according to the Qur’an, is one of the greatest “signs” of God, tend to immobilize what is essentially mobile in its nature. The failure of Europe in political and social sciences illustrates the former principle, the immobility of Islam during the last five hundred years illustrates the latter. What then is the principle of movement in the structure of Islam? This is known as Ijtihād.
...


The closing of the door of Ijtihād is pure fiction suggested partly by the crystallization of legal thought in Islam, and partly by that intellectual laziness which, especially in the period of spiritual decay, turns great thinkers into idols. If some of the later doctors have upheld this fiction, modern Islam is not bound by this voluntary surrender of intellectual independence.


http://www.allamaiqbal.com/works/prose/english/reconstruction/


So, Iqbal too believed that unlike Western 'Originalism', Islamic political thought was essentially dynamic (that had become static because of closure of doors of Ijtihad and intellectual laziness), implying that the liberal theory of living constitution was inline with Islamic political thought.

Now, would you start hurling insults/abuses at Allama Iqbal too ?

Please point out that i like hurling insults or abuse. I merely pointed out that this Pir lacks education to say that Jinnah dreamt Pakistan.

You are getting very frustrated with every passing day and intolerant as well.
 
Please point out that i like hurling insults or abuse. I merely pointed out that this Pir lacks education to say that Jinnah dreamt Pakistan.

You are getting very frustrated with every passing day and intolerant as well.

So you chose to ignore the content of the post and resort to the usual stupid one-liners/rants ... Why am I Not surprised?, troll. And You were not the only one quoted in that post, troll.
 
So you chose to ignore the content of the post and resort to the usual stupid one-liners/rants ... Why am I Not surprised?, troll. And You were not the only one quoted in that post, troll.

there is no reason to hurl your usual rants man. relax.
 
Well, the liberal Pir is saying about Islam/Ijtihad exactly what Mufakkir e Pakistan Allama Muhammad Iqbal had stated 90 years ago.

.... eternal principles when they are understood to exclude all possibilities of change which, according to the Qur’an, is one of the greatest “signs” of God, tend to immobilize what is essentially mobile in its nature. The failure of Europe in political and social sciences illustrates the former principle, the immobility of Islam during the last five hundred years illustrates the latter. What then is the principle of movement in the structure of Islam? This is known as Ijtihād.
...

AND

The closing of the door of Ijtihād is pure fiction suggested partly by the crystallization of legal thought in Islam, and partly by that intellectual laziness which, especially in the period of spiritual decay, turns great thinkers into idols. If some of the later doctors have upheld this fiction, modern Islam is not bound by this voluntary surrender of intellectual independence
http://www.allamaiqbal.com/works/prose/english/reconstruction/


So, Iqbal too believed that unlike Western 'Originalism', Islamic political thought was essentially dynamic (that had become static because of the perceived closure of doors of Ijtihad and intellectual laziness), implying that the liberal theory of living constitution was inline with Islamic political thought.

Now, would you start hurling insults/abuses at Allama Iqbal too ?






Liberal?, yes
Secular?, Islam and secularism are compatible. We don't have to remove Islam from the constitution to create Jinnah's Pakistan. The 1951 Libyan Constitution is a perfect example of what Jinnah wanted for Pakistan .....

The 1951 Libyan Constitution proclaims Islam as the state religion but formally sets out rights such as equality before the law as well as equal civil and political rights, equal opportunities, and an equal responsibility for public duties and obligations "without distinction of religion, belief, race, language, wealth, kinship or political or social opinions"

Context is really important. The statement you quoted is mere a paragraph out of a book which might be under some context which is all missing to comment further.

Furthermore, you ignore my question ... I simply asked name of a country where Islam is implemented and is the reason of hurdles in growth of the country?

Secondly, if Secularism and liberalism is allowed in Islam just in the way you proposed then its not Islam ... You want a liberal country yest go ahead name it liberal but don't try to pretend that its Islamic ...

Islamic country needs to be govern by Islamic principles but it means that it will be a just society based on equity and religious freedom as defined by Islam ...
 
Context is really important. The statement you quoted is mere a paragraph out of a book which might be under some context which is all missing to comment further.
.

It's not a para out of book. It's from Allama Iqbal's lecture titled "THE PRINCIPLE OF MOVEMENT IN THE STRUCTURE OF ISLAM"... Nothing 'out of context', mate

Furthermore, you ignore my question ... I simply asked name of a country where Islam is implemented and is the reason of hurdles in growth of the country?

There is no country where Islam is implemented.
Invalid question
 
It's not a para out of book. It's from Allama Iqbal's lecture titled "THE PRINCIPLE OF MOVEMENT IN THE STRUCTURE OF ISLAM"... Nothing 'out of context', mate



There is no country where Islam is implemented.
Invalid question
Can you please share the complete lecture with the timelines
 
Secondly, if Secularism and liberalism is allowed in Islam just in the way you proposed then its not Islam ... You want a liberal country yest go ahead name it liberal but don't try to pretend that its Islamic ...

You, of course, are entitled to your opinion.
The point is that the founding fathers of this country believed that liberalism and secularism were allowed in Islam.

Can you please share the complete lecture with the timelines

Link has already been provided
 
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