South Korean Ships Instead of Trainer Aircraft

[Audio]

There is simply no comparison between aerodynamic performance of T-50 and M-346.

I think every plane can do the stuff in that video. The predecessor of the M-346 was flying in the Italian AF display team for years.

My opinion is that you should be proud on the achievement of KAI, the F/A-50 does sound nice, however it is foolish to expect that the plane will wipe with the competition in every tender, especially seeing that this is your first real aeroplane and the competition has been in the business for decades.

 

[Korean]

I think every plane can do the stuff in that video.

Some of hard turns were made with the afterburner engaged. As you are aware, M-346 has no afterburner and can't make sustained quick turns as it bleeds energy and this is why M-346 looks sluggish in flying displays.

however it is foolish to expect that the plane will wipe with the competition in every tender

Not all airforces are created equal, and Israeli airforce deal was considered to be of relatively high value because IAF is considered an high-end airforce that would need high-performance trainers to train highly skilled combat pilots. To the shock of Korean government, Israel made a political decision to go for a lower-performance jet. Making additional T-50/FA-50 deals with Iraq(In negotiation to buy FA-50 because F-16 purchase was overpriced and not in sufficient quantity) and UAE(Which scrapped the deal because of the lack of an armed variant of M-346 and is now looking at FA-50 instead) doesn't make up for this loss.

T-50's problem is that it will continue to struggle until it makes its sales to the USAF which is in the market for 350 supersonic trainers to replace T-38 and F-16D in a single package, then T-50's sales will go smoothly. At this point the loss of Israel contest ma turn out to be a blessing, as Israel was demanding the wing fabrication of all T-50 variants and combat simulators to be sourced from Israel.

 

[Tshering22]

I found it very surprising that Israel opted for the Italian M-346 rather than the Korean T-50 which shares commonality with the F-16 model. The engines, design features and handling characteristics are said to be similar and this could have eased out Israeli training rather than getting a totally different European make.

 

[Korean]

I found it very surprising that Israel opted for the Italian M-346 rather than the Korean T-50 which shares commonality with the F-16 model. The engines, design features and handling characteristics are said to be similar and this could have eased out Israeli training rather than getting a totally different European make.

It was a political decision, not a commercial decision. Italy is one of few pro-Israel EU states and Israeli leadership deemed the diplomatic support from Italy to be more important for Israel's survival than opening a new market opportunity in the second largest arms importer in the world.

 

[NeutralCitizen]

Even Singapore choose the m-346 only country I see buying the T-50 is Indonesia. m-346 is the choice they would pick. UAE would probably go for it as well.

 

[Korean]

UAE would probably go for it as well.

No, the M-346 talks has fallen apart due to the lack of an armed combat-ready version, which would make up half of UAE's purchase.

UAE's resumption of negotiation with Korea is on F/A-50, the combat-ready attack version complete with laser targeting, Mavericks, and cluster bombs. As you are aware, there is no combat-capable M-346.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAI_T-50_Golden_Eagle

Armament
Guns: 1× 20 mm (0.787 in) General Dynamics A-50 3-barreled rotary cannon
Hardpoints: Total: 7
Rockets: Hydra 70, LOGIR
Missiles:
Air-to-air: AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-120 AMRAAM
Air-to-ground: AGM-65 Maverick
Bombs: Mk 82, Mk 83, and Mk 84 general purpose bombs with SPICE, JDAM, or JDAM-ER guidance kits; CBU-97/105 sensor fuzed weapons, laser-guided bombs

 

[NeutralCitizen]

No, the M-346 talks has fallen apart due to the lack of an armed combat-ready version, which would make up half of UAE's purchase.

UAE's resumption of negotiation with Korea is on F/A-50, the combat-ready attack version complete with laser targeting, Mavericks, and cluster bombs. As you are aware, there is no combat-capable M-346.

KAI T-50 Golden Eagle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Armament
Guns: 1× 20 mm (0.787 in) General Dynamics A-50 3-barreled rotary cannon
Hardpoints: Total: 7
Rockets: Hydra 70, LOGIR
Missiles:
Air-to-air: AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-120 AMRAAM
Air-to-ground: AGM-65 Maverick
Bombs: Mk 82, Mk 83, and Mk 84 general purpose bombs with SPICE, JDAM, or JDAM-ER guidance kits; CBU-97/105 sensor fuzed weapons, laser-guided bombs

Yes thanks for that however m346 stopped but could come back have to wait and see Singapore seemed like a natural country to go for the T-50 but did not and even the US seems to want the m-346.

 

[Korean]

even the US seems to want the m-346.

Nope. The T-X trainer must be able to replace F-16D in addition to T-38. M-346 and Hawk cannot replace F-16D.

AETC chief: New trainer to free up fighters - Air Force News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Air Force Times

AETC chief: New trainer to free up fighters
By Scott Fontaine - Staff writer
Posted : Thursday Feb 17, 2011 12:45:29 EST
ORLANDO, Fla. — The Air Force’s newest supersonic trainer jet should free up more fighters to deploy overseas, according to the officer who oversees the service’s training and education command.

The military has pledged $300 million across the Future Years Defense Program starting next year on a replacement for the workhorse T-38 trainer. Gen. Edward Rice of Air Education and Training Command told reporters Thursday the T-X trainer and high-fidelity simulators should put fighters “back in the hands of the operators.”

“I think one of our objectives for the T-X is to free up of the cockpits because we have enough fidelity in the training systems and you don’t have to train, at least in the initial training phases, on the F-22 or F-35,” Rice told reporters during the Air Force Association’s annual winter meeting.

Rice didn’t share many details about the procurement process because the service hasn’t made a decision on specifics of the new craft, but the service wants the new trainer to closely match the capabilities of fifth-generation fighters.

The Air Force has bridged pilot training between the T-38 and the F-22 by putting trainees in F-16s — a situation Rice called “a temporary measure that is adequate.”

“We’re looking at the needs of a fifth-generation fleet,” Rice said. “We don’t have dual-cockpit systems in the F-35 or F-22, so there’s a need to both modernize what a trainer can do and get away from some of the sustainment costs of the trainer. We’re looking at all of that, and this year should be an important year for the T-X program.”

Current USAF training course

T-38 -> F-16D -> F-22

Future USAF training course

T-X -> F-22/F-35

Obviously, you cannot pull a student out of an M-346 and put him into an F-22 as M-346 doesn't have the aerodynamic performance to emulate high-end jets. Even the USAF-spec T-50 is getting an engine upgrade to a F414 to deliver that F-16D/F-22/F-35 like aerodynamic performance.

BAE is lobbying for keeping F-16D in the training program as it's clear that Hawk will not be able to match an F-16D, LM's for the elimination of F-16D to ensure that T-50 is the sole bidder.

 

[Audio]

Not all airforces are created equal, and Israeli airforce deal was considered to be of relatively high value because IAF is considered an high-end airforce that would need high-performance trainers to train highly skilled combat pilots. To the shock of Korean government, Israel made a political decision to go for a lower-performance jet.

The IAF recommended the M-346 after evaluation.

http://www.israeldefense.com/?CategoryID=472&ArticleID=804

IAI also had a say in it (they are actually the buyer that will rent the flight hours to the IAF).

Italy signed contract for the AWACS and has had a pretty uncompromising policy on Iranian oil imports, while Korea imported happily until late last month.

S.Korea, Taiwan, S.Africa cut Iranian oil imports

According to some article in ynetnews.com the flight hour in the M-346 is also cheaper.

Israel to buy Italian military training jets

That's all on top of the fact that IAF wanted a trainer not a trainer/light attack.

 

[IND151]

You should stop dreaming. South Korea military industry is quite good but it's far from being perfect. With this attitude you will lose more then you will gain. In my opinion israel should start develop it's own ship industry that will suit to our navy needs . We have done that before with sa'ar 4 missile ships and we definitely can do it agine.

Israel Shipyards - Experience that empowers seagoing ventures worldwide

why you guys don't join us in Project 17A?

building Stealth ships in JV with India will benefit both nations as India intends to build 7 Project 17 frigates so both nations can share facilities and it will reduce CPU due to larger scale of operation

 

[Korean]

The IAF recommended the M-346 after evaluation.

A political decision.

IAI also had a say in it (they are actually the buyer that will rent the flight hours to the IAF).

IAI backed T-50.

Italy signed contract for the AWACS and has had a pretty uncompromising policy on Iranian oil imports, while Korea imported happily until late last month.

No, Korea's still importing Iranian oil. There is no plan to stop importing Iranian oil only reduce by 15%. Korea and Iran actually negotiate and agree to terms of "sanctions" before they are announced.

According to some article in ynetnews.com the flight hour in the M-346 is also cheaper.

Isn't that obvious? T-50 is a bigger, heavier, and more powerful jet.

That's all on top of the fact that IAF wanted a trainer not a trainer/light attack.

That assumes IAF maintaining a fleet of F-16Ds for training. The ROKAF and the USAF have no plan to keep using F-16D for conversion training, it is a straight from T-50/T-X to single-seat combat jets for them.

 

[Audio]

A political decision.

No. The military recommended to the def. ministry results of plain old fashion tests. Political decision is down below.

IAI backed T-50.

I never said who they backed, i just said they had some say in it. If you can post the source for that i'd be very thankful.

No, Korea's still importing Iranian oil. There is no plan to stop importing Iranian oil only reduce by 15%. Korea and Iran actually negotiate and agree to terms of "sanctions" before they are announced.

From here comes the political decision. Obviously they see you as someone that is helping their "foe" from getting knocked down (by sanctions).

That assumes IAF maintaining a fleet of F-16Ds for training. The ROKAF and the USAF have no plan to keep using F-16D for conversion training, it is a straight from T-50/T-X to single-seat combat jets for them.

It does assume that because the tender was meant to pick up a plane that would replace the A-4 Skyhawks.

 

[Korean]

Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering : Daewoo Shipbuilding Signs MOU To Build Ships For Peruvian Navy | 4-Traders

Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering : Daewoo Shipbuilding Signs MOU To Build Ships For Peruvian Navy
04/10/2012 | 12:49am
Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering Co. (042660.SE) said Tuesday it has signed a memorandum of understanding with Peru to build ships for the country's navy as part of the South Korean company's plan to raise exports of submarines and other military vessels.

"The initial pact gives us exclusive rights to build submarines and multi-role support ships if we clinch a final deal with the Peruvian government," Daewoo Shipbuilding Chief Executive Ko Jae-ho said in a statement.

The pact also includes maintenance and upgrades of submarines for the Peruvian Navy, the statement said.

Korean shipbuilding industry is already competitive enough that it can land deals at Indonesia, UK, Bangladesh, Peru, and so on without much government support. Accordingly, Israeli inquiry in Korean warships doesn't really do much on the Korean side, and the Israeli policy makers are mistaken if Koreans would tone down their anger by buying a few small warships because people still grind teeth when hearing the word "Israel". The damage that Israel's political decision caused is that bad.

The ROKAF tanker fleet decision is due next year and Israeli offer(Israel offered to convert used Boeing cargo jets for a fraction of US and European new tankers) is already crossed out for being Israeli.

 

[jha]

^^ DOKDO class is pretty good ...

 

[Korean]

^^ DOKDO class is pretty good ...

no it is not, it is considered a failure in Korea and this is why there wasn't a second one. The follow-up ship will be a double-decker similar to French Mistral(which is built by Korean builder STX).