Steel cutting ceremony of 2nd Milgem Corvette held at KS&EW - June 2020

[Akh1112]

With the PN/KSEW, I think the design is true-to-reality. I remember seeing the first illustrations of FAC(M)-3 -- i.e., PNS Himmat -- with the 2x3 launcher, and we saw it in reality. Then we saw the illustration of FAC(M)-4 with KSEW altering the bow section a bit, and that ended up being real as well.

I'd say, with 90% confidence, KSEW's PN MILGEM illustration is close to the real thing. Now, the uptake VLS could also be a sign of the PN taking things a whole other direction. We know MBDA Italy wants in on this program (i.e., their CEO visited the CNS in October 2019), but the previous CNS asked Denel about the Umkhonto.

Though it is ready (or near-ready), we haven't seen an implementation of the Umkhonto EIR (30-35 km range) yet, just the older variants. So, this could be a proprietary VLS belonging to Denel Group (or some other smaller OEM).

For reference, Algeria paid $61 m to equip its 2 MEKO A-200ANs with the Umkhonto, i.e., a total of 100 missiles, 32 proprietary VLS cells per ship, FCS, integration and testing included.

I'd reckon it can cost the PN around $20 m to configure each ship (including missiles and a proprietary VLS).

@denel you might find this all interesting. Just for your reference, we're talking about the raised VLS onboard the PN's new MILGEM corvette/light frigate.

While on cost grounds the Umkhonto could be a serious contender, i feel like the CAMM offers better all round capability, the biggest factor being that it allows each corvette to carry a far greater payload than the Umkhonto does. We can also benefit from the economies of scale the CAMM has, while yes, it could still be costlier, it would still help the overall cost. Do we have any estimates on cost anyway? It has some commonality with ASRAAM and also alot of functionality is software based, further reducing cost. In terms of its capabilities, it could also allow the PN to carry a 'larger AShM loadout', it sounds ridiculous but hear me out: the CAMM can also be used for Antiship roles against smaller surface combatants, such as IN PB's or potentially OPV's. CAMM is also faster and has been shown to have a range of up to 60km according to Janes. We could even see maybe a variant of the ER with even more range relative to the current ER's 45km, since well, the missile is clearly capable of it. I dont know about either missile's kill probability but id be more inclined to believe the CAMM would be superior due to its two way datalink and active seeker. The CAMM would also bring maintenance benefits thanks to its soft launch VLS.

I think PN will use HQ-16 as well. G40 will be similar to the CAMM, I'm sure that both the G40 and MDAS will be ready by 2024 so there's also that possibility...

G40 could potentially be far more costly than the CAMM or even Umkhonto. Turkey just cant produce on the scale we need to keep costs low. Beyond this, who knows, Turkey would need to also design a VLS solution or they/us could be forced to rely on an ITAR restricted option, i.e MK-41 which is slated to be used on the TF-2000/I CLASS

Man we need to increase the range of SAMs. Go for those which have higher ranges

Do remember, while it is on the larger side for a corvette, we dont know how the hull is designed or what is the layout of the ship. Longer ranged SAM's=More hull space needed. While to a certain extent we can accommodate for this, we can only go so large before we run into issues. Think of this as a placeholder/temporary measure. As better missiles become available, whats to say the PN wont upgrade/swap to them.

The Turkish approach is extremely sound, but at the same time there is no reason to doubt the Chinese quality either. The difference in timelines can be explained by differences in economies of scale. Having said that, the Type054A is going to be the first modern frigate that PN gets its hands on after F-22, and we will get a definite update on the quality once the ship has been inducted. I am not expecting any surprises since PN has been involved in exercises, the officers must have visited existing ships, and a certain level of quality expectations would have been conveyed. Yes, a lot of could, should, and would, but that's because I don't have any official sources.

While the F-22P is modern in terms of its age, its still based off of a legacy platform, which the original platform in itself wasnt great, the F-22P shares sensors and whatnot with the 053H3, however uses a redesigned superstructure and hull for a lower RCS

The base of the VLS will need some sort of foundation to control blowback and vibrations, and room for the initial exhaust. This Istanbul class has a draft of 4.05m

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul-class_frigate

so a missile length of 3.7m which includes the raised VLS sounds reasonable. Which missiles are in this length class?

So this is why i am hedging my bets on the CAMM if the graphic is actually accurate. The graphic is missing a common uptake (exhaust) so it is making use a cold launch system, the only VLS capable missile that doesnt require exhaust that comes to mind is the CAMM, this is because it uses gas to be exhausted out of the canister and then ignites its engine for propulsion.

 

[ANMDT]

so it stayed in the Black Sea for a long time

They cant stay further than 21 days, and passed Bosporus by appointing Turkey 15 days prior the pass, so we knew it. What is the matter?

good job. but because 054A conducted joint military exercises with the Russian Navy. so it stayed in the Black Sea for a long time. but really did not see the Turkish ship.

Maybe the Turkish ship is in the Mediterranean? Wait. I asked about 052C. It is conducting joint exercises with the Greek Navy.

None of my business, probably still they couldn't even have an eye-sight on Turkish drillships or might have seen the smokes or illusions.
Enough of derailing subject and trolling i guess. Or would you keep going until some people had to report you?
If you want to learn more about shipbuilding you may consider appointing to some lectures, and for learning about naval activities of the countries whom you dont have single idea about, you may spend some more time on forums and seeking for naval exercises.

 

[Neptune]

It actually depends on the planning,

13 months span cover from launching to commissioning, probably Chinese shipyard launches the vessel with all systems are integrated on (electronics etc). The time took from first steel cut to commissioning of the first vessel of any order, only this, would tell us the true span about building. This is rather hard to describe in words, but modules of the ships can be built in parallel, 4 ships would take 4 years, but 1 ship alone would take 2.5 -3 years.

This is a preference they can either launch ship equipped if they have enough space ( on drydock-slipway) or launch it bare, tow to the berth or another dry dock (if requires dry works) and equip it in there. It depends on the size of shipyards, crane arrangements, production flow and bunch of other stuff those i don't know.

They have larger shipyards with more steel processing capacity, more automated in terms of steel processing but system integration (equipping) is entirely relies on handwork,and sometimes it is not done in parallel with steelworks or even within themselves, this is valid for testing as well not all procedures can be conducted in parallel. Briefly i can say this: comparing any ship's launching to commissioning timespan does not give any insight about the time it is built unless we know how the shipyard works. But 13 months for steel construction+equipping+remakes+testing doesn't make much sense, it is rather impossible. it is for sure, partially equipping (minor things like furniture that can be equipped in between of testing)+testing to take 13 months.

I know at least one Korean shipyard installs (equips) the steel modules (blocks) before erecting (mounting) this requires high accuracy manufacturing and experience but i am not again sure if this could be achieved in naval vessels, considering mass amount of cabling-piping, but i know our shipyards ,except a few, can not work with large blocks; the smaller blocks are, the more time spend on erecting them. It is simply far more easy to build those blocks on the ground than mounting smaller ones to each other on the slipway.

Assuming China has built enough many warships to gain experience on this as well. This could be another factor to accelerate their progress. They are much more experienced than us in this. However, All aforementioned factors wouldn't double their production speed. It would only accelerate when multiple ships are delivered in a row.

Before 2010 i personally knew people who has avoided Chinese shipyards and leaned on Japan and Korea due to multiple reasons. But nowadays they are good as Koreans and they have already gained majority of the pie and also trusted by shipowners. As of 2020, especially for a Chinese military shipyard, we can hardly speak of low quality production (at least i can say this for steelworks). They spend a lot on R&D. Hundred folds of our research budget for ship design, production, engineering related jobs is poured on the universities.

Last matter, China (or Chinese shipyard) considers this in terms of profit, the sooner they finish and deliver the vessel the more profit they will gain. We consider this in terms of providing ships to a country that our government refers as brother.

One more brief explanation, i have came across a few guys complaining about schedule of this project in almost in threads related to J-Class:

Pakistan ordered Type 54A Frigate in 2018 June, This is a ready to built platform for Chinese and maybe with minor modifications that can be applied (for the PN requirement like Galley- berthing - prayer room and so on) on the go, and first ship will be delivered in 2021 Q2 (Q3 or Q4) which takes about 2.5 years or 3 or more; without any ToT. This simply proves a Type 54A is not built within 13 months.

For F22P the first ship roughly took about 3 years in China, again we don't know when steel cut has started, only keel laying is indicated,in the same way the last ship which is built in Pakistan took about 3 year. For the last ship of the J-Class it is expected to lay keel 18 months after the 1st ship, which will be 2022 and delivered in 2025, which is again 2.5-3 years.

Pakistan has ordered J-Class in 2018 (or 2019 i am not quite sure), with accepting that design modifications applied on Ada-Class will take 18 months or even longer (since Pakistan has also joined on this process). Turkey or any other country is in no place to prepare a design in details just for possible 4 ships purchase. Moreover, Turkey has offered ToT, probably far more than what Chinese has offered within F-22P project and furthermore one vital thing : Ability to design warships, IP rights of the new design and system integration viable for future, The furthest ToT shipbuilders has offered were extending to module building, block erecting and production phase in most of the cases (speaking of purchases and deliveries made by other countries). Turkey has spent years or decades to gain this knowledge, and we are sharing this for sake of brotherhood, not the finances.

Last words: The single matter is how countries' authorities came into agreement, it could have been 10 or 20 year, it all what depends on. There are multiple reasons to settle a schedule, finances, extension of the ToT, Navy's requirement and procurement-replacement schedule-training of personnel is only a few factors. Chinese shipyard can equip (the numbers are just fictitious to make some point) 4 ships in parallel for foreign sales, considering the sources they have got and the huge demand for their own navy, our military shipyard can spare only 1 slot for foreign sales to ensure 1-2 slots for our own demand. Even for I-Class's 2nd-4th vessels a consortium is spoken of, to produce more ships in shorter times.

Thank you for stepping in and sparing time to inform us brother. Enjoyed reading as always.

 

[ANMDT]

Thank you for stepping in and sparing time to inform us brother. Enjoyed reading as always.

My pleasure bro, glad if it helped.

 

[cabatli_53]

who knows, Turkey would need to also design a VLS solution or they/us could be forced to rely on an ITAR restricted option, i.e MK-41 which is slated to be used on the TF-2000/I CLASS

Second I class will have national VLS + G40 missiles. National VLS can not catch the production schedule of first I class.

 

[Akh1112]

Second I class will have national VLS + G40 missiles. National VLS can not catch the production schedule of first I class.

That image says ESSM, which would mean MK-41, it would make more sense for Turkey to just use the MK-41 anyway

 

[cabatli_53]

That image says ESSM, which would mean MK-41, it would make more sense for Turkey to just use the MK-41 anyway

Yes, This configuration is for first I class called TCG Istanbul.

 

[eagleeye]

This is an old picture only first ship will have mk41 launcher and essm .like cabatli said Second I class will have national VLS + G40 missiles . phalanx on the rear side will also replaced with gökdeniz ciws.

 

[Akh1112]

Yes, This configuration is for first I class called TCG Istanbul.

No, i understand, however, it makes no sense from a logical POV to switch to a domestic VLS system. Not from a cost pov, nor from a logistics POV, heck, potentially even from a capabilities POV either. Quadpacked ESSM with a range of over 50km brings pretty impressive capabilities. Switching VLS just makes no sense since it would mean you'd have one ship that would need to be armed differently vs the rest, adding extra hurdles in terms of maintenance and logistics

 

[Tipu7]

Yes, This configuration is for first I class called TCG Istanbul.

Need your opinion about I-class and J-class relationship.

Do you believe that Pakistan will 'update' the design of I-class to craft J-class just like it did with Milgums? Should we hypothesize that J-class will be a heavier variant of I-class? (displacement around 3200-3600tons) After all, it does not make any sense to go for 3000 tons vessel when 2800 tons vessel is already under construction? (Provided that J-class will be different than current PN Milgem)

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Need your opinion about I-class and J-class relationship.

Do you believe that Pakistan will 'update' the design of I-class to craft J-class just like it did with Milgums? Should we hypothesize that J-class will be a heavier variant of I-class? (displacement around 3200-3600tons) After all, it does not make any sense to go for 3000 tons vessel when 2800 tons vessel is already under construction? (Provided that J-class will be different than current PN Milgem)

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I'm wondering if between July 2018 and May 2019 (i.e., when the project started) the PN simply decided to convert all four MILGEMs to the Jinnah-class configuration? It's totally possible that the contract in 2018 was meant for only 3 Ada corvettes and 1 modified version (which is what we all thought). There were no illustrations of this VLS variant or its models, all of the info came after May 2019.

 

[Tipu7]

I'm wondering if between July 2018 and May 2019 (i.e., when the project started) the PN simply decided to convert all four MILGEMs to the Jinnah-class configuration? It's totally possible that the contract in 2018 was meant for only 3 Ada corvettes and 1 modified version (which is what we all thought).

If so, then why we haven't seen the word 'Jinnah Class' any where in official ceremonies?
Now either J- class is entirely different thing, or it's unofficial name of PN Milgems.

But again, J-class is Frigate... And Milgem is corvette. Their displacement difference should be around 4000-6000 tons.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

If so, then why we haven't seen the word 'Jinnah Class' any where in official ceremonies?
Now either J- class is entirely different thing, or it's unofficial name of PN Milgems.

But again, J-class is Frigate... And Milgem is corvette. Their displacement difference should be around 4000-6000 tons.

They generally don't name the ship until they commission it, the "Jinnah-class" thing came from a PN officer who spoke to the media at IDEAS 2018. But it wasn't used officially after that. If anything, since then, the PN referred to all 4 MILGEMs as 'corvettes,' and not frigates.

If you notice, the PN is clearly changing some things:

1. It's no longer referring to large frigates as 'destroyers' -- it's calling the Type 054A/P as "frigates."

2. It seems ships in the 2,000 to 3,000-ton range are now 'corvettes' (modified MILGEMs included).

But if ship #4 is different, then it could be anything from a stretched/enlarged PN MILGEM (i.e. a cousin of the I-Class) or a sibling variant of the I-Class.

I'd wager it would be an enlarged or stretched PN MILGEM (basically Turkey teaching Pakistan how to literally design its own I-Class in much of the same way Turkey did with the Ada). It's only 5 years for 4 ships, so I can't really see a switch in platforms. Moreover, the PN MILGEM is already so close to the I-Class, the main difference is 8 AShM vs 16 AShM, so they either go there or they retain the PN MILGEM as-is.

 

[cabatli_53]

Need your opinion about I-class and J-class relationship.

Do you believe that Pakistan will 'update' the design of I-class to craft J-class just like it did with Milgums? Should we hypothesize that J-class will be a heavier variant of I-class? (displacement around 3200-3600tons) After all, it does not make any sense to go for 3000 tons vessel when 2800 tons vessel is already under construction? (Provided that J-class will be different than current PN Milgem)

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Current PN Milgems equals to more or less our I class in terms of sensor and weapon package so updating J class into the level of I class won’t make much sense. I believe J class will be constructed as 4 warship and If PN requests more, The construction will proceed in Pakistani shipyard. Pakistan will have rights to export J class abroad as well but I believe the next big cooperation will be carried out based on Tf-2000 destroyers instead of I class. PN warships that will be connected eachother with Advent CMS, will be a real force multiplier.

 

[aziqbal]

What will be the VLS count on the TF-2000?