Ground Zero mosque wins approval !!

[Vinod2070]

Yes because the polls shows that majority of Americans do not support this, so why are the Muslims communities trying to prove themselves, Instead they should be proving to the American public of there fears of Muslim Religion...

I do not get it, but Muslims are showing antagonism where they should have not been. Durran3 gave a perfect example of polarization between religion to terrorism, but the Muslims are not showing or acting based on this effect, meaning the polarization between religion and terrorism.

Let me give a perfect example of this, When Pakistanies says that a Afgani Taliban is good Taliban, this is the perfect example for Americans to look at Muslims, as a religion, associating with Terrorist views. So in Conclusion the moderate Muslims are not getting any headway towards expressing there peace with the world, and the Rest of the people are getting Confused!!!

There has to be this Polarization period.... Which Iman is out there to lead!!!

They are beating the wrong horse. I know some of them are frustrated with the conditions but the response they have devised is not effective and it doesn't help their own cause.

I see at least some trying to overcome the frustration by becoming overly aggressive or sensitive or both.

 

[muse]

INteresting comments from Indian friends - today they are making pigs of themselves at Muslim bashing feasts but they need to be reminded that the first "diaper heads" bashed and or killed were Indian Sikhs in the US - and as the author of the Mosque controversy piece higlights, the sense that US governemtn is allowing these "others" to take over is not limited to Muslims - these sorts of people every day complain about dark, foreign accents taking over - will Indian hope to evade these people? how? If such people are successful, can Indian ever hope to be safe in US?

 

[Vinod2070]

Do people ever take a pause and think why they have antagonized the whole world? Did they do something to deserve that or is it all some mythical "Islamophobia" that has suddenly consumed all?

Ever thought why Serbs indulged in such barbarity towards Bosnians? Could it possibly be linked to their own treatment earlier at the hands of Muslim invaders? Same for India, same for Europe?

Excerpts from a bit old article but I don't see what has changed now.

Negative views of Muslims were also strong in several Asian countries: Half or more of the Japanese, Indians, Chinese and South Koreans surveyed said they had negative impressions of Muslims.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/17/world/europe/17iht-poll.4.16247639.html

You can call people "pigs" or anything. It doesn't matter. It just shows an escapist attitude. This issue is not about India. The very fact that some people need to divert and deflect shows that something is amiss.

 

[muse]

Thank you for that - now some of our Indian interlocutors cannot claim that they are discussing this from their point of view as Americans - rather, it now stands confirmed that what motivates some is a strong desire for revenge where they play victim of an magined past.


In the present political environment of the US, should this issue, which is a non-issue in reality, that is to say, it revolves around private property and religious freedom, two of the most basic pillars of US society, should US citizenry and especialy media, allow this issue to offer radical politicians a venue, other ethnic and religous minorities, prime among them, Indians and Hindus and Sikhs and Sith Indian Christians in the US would be among the first and last to be victimized.

This reality should offer some measure of sobriety to those Indian victims of ideology who would rather cut off thei rown noses to spite their imagined enemies.

So be it, Diaper head and Monkey God are just the opening statement/sentiment of these radicals, but if you need proof of their intentions chech with some Diaper heads to see what happened to them.

 

[Vinod2070]

Now some of our Indian interlocutors cannot claim that they are discussing this from their point of view as Americans - rather, it now stands confirmed that what motivates some is a strong desire for revenge where they play victim of an magined past.

Every person argues from his own perspective. I do not necessarily represent the views of any other Indian.

My comment was not necessarily about the legality or morality of the mosque but about the reaction to it and the accusations of Islamophobia.

You can't force people into supporting you by threat of what will happen to them. Not when they are also the recent victims of the same terror (not some imaginary past which happens to be well chronicled by the Muslim historians themselves and celebrated to this day, spiting the kaffir, enjoying the booty and so on).

The radicals may talk of diaper head or monkey god or pedophilia and it doesn't matter. That is not what this issue is about.

It is easy to call everyone who has an opposite view a radical or Islamophobe. Helps avoid responsibility or introspection, something many people avoid like a plague.

 

[Developereo]

Thank you for that - now some of our Indian interlocutors cannot claim that they are discussing this from their point of view as Americans - rather, it now stands confirmed that what motivates some is a strong desire for revenge where they play victim of an magined past.

There is no point arguing with the Indian bigots. They revel in this latest wave of Islamophobia because it provides cover for their own ingrained bigotry.

What they fail to realize is that Islamophobia is just a manifestation of latent xenophobia in many cultures -- these people hate all outsiders, including Indian hindus, but only complain publicly about muslims because the dominant media has legitimized anti-muslim bigotry.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.

-- Martin Niemöller

PS. Yes, I know it's futile, the Indian bigots just won't get it.

 

[Vinod2070]

Funny to see accusations of bigotry coming from some. I can give many example of bigotry of Islamic societies all over.

That is not the point here.

PS: Look at the conditions of minorities in Islamic world before expecting the world from the secular democratic countries. Look at how the Islamic media outlets openly call for killing each Jew on the face of the earth. I can post Youtube videos if needed.

Saudi textbooks calling Jews and Christians apes and pigs and teaching it as fact.

Its funny to see the lack of objectivity and the sense of fair play and golden rule.

But then one has learnt what one is dealing with.

 

[Developereo]

Funny to see accusations of bigotry coming from some. I can give many example of bigotry of Islamic societies all over.

That is not the point here.

Indeed, the point is not about bigotry in society. All cultures have bigots, but ultimately it comes down to individuals.

The point is about individual posters in this forum.

 

[Vinod2070]

Indeed, the point is not about bigotry in society. All cultures have bigots, but ultimately it comes down to individuals.

The point is about individual posters in this forum.

No! The point is about the issue being discussed. Not what you or me think of the poster!

It doesn't matter if I think of someone as a bigot or a hypocrite, what matters is whether what he says has truth in it or the views are genuine.

This obsession with individuals is something one learns to ignore when one gains experience.

 

[Developereo]

No! The point is about the issue being discussed. Not what you or me think of the poster!

A poster's demonstrated bias is a valid reference point to evaluate the content of their posts.

It doesn't matter if I think of someone as a bigot or a hypocrite, what matters is whether what he says has truth in it or the views are genuine.

Selective truth hunting is a wild goose chase. For every instance of muslim bigotry you dig up, we can bring up instances of hindu or christian or jewish bigotry -- and their consequences. Just because you are selectively blind to them is irrelevant.

This obsession with individuals is something one learns to ignore when one gains experience.

On the contrary, it is precisely the individual who makes the difference for the positive. Hiding in the anonymity of the collective is the mark of the coward and the bigot's refuge.

 

[muse]

It's so unfortunate that these people are the kinds of victims of ideology that they are.

The realization that they will be among the very first victims, given their numbers and visibility in society does not move victim of ideology - he just wants to bask in the glow of having thrown mud on Muslims, imagining that it will not splash on him.

 

[Vinod2070]

A poster's demonstrated bias is a valid reference point to evaluate the content of their posts.

Selective truth hunting is a wild goose chase. For every instance of muslim bigotry you dig up, we can bring up instances of hindu or christian or jewish bigotry -- and their consequences. Just because you are selectively blind to them is irrelevant.

On the contrary, it is precisely the individual who makes the difference for the positive. Hiding in the anonymity of the collective is the mark of the coward and the bigot's refuge.

Let me just tell you one saying.

"Great people talk about ideas.
Average people talk about things.
Small people talk about other people."

Author: Unknown

You are again making it a Hindu Vs. Muslim issue or trying to call someone bigot (which is easy and lazy to do and can be easily reciprocated).

You choose whether you want to be intellectually lazy!

 

[Vinod2070]

It seems some are out of their depth and are just trying to deflect and divert.

It is not about Indians and India. How hard can that be to understand! The opposition is coming from American citizens who are otherwise so freely allowing people from all over.

 

[Developereo]

"Great people talk about ideas.
Average people talk about things.
Small people talk about other people."

Author: Unknown

To answer colloquially, "ideas are a dime a dozen". What matters in the end are the individuals who actually execute these ideas.

You are again making it a Hindu Vs. Muslim issue

No, you are making it into hindu v/s muslim issue by bringing in south asia and other irrelevant subjects into the discussion.

It is not about Indians

The point is the consistent frequency and vigor with which Indians attack Islam and muslims -- on this forum and in the outside world.


Anyway, on the topic of Park51, the equation is very simple.

There are two ways to look at Park51: as a provocative symbol of Islam, or as a conciliatory gesture towards enhanced interfaith dialog. Since GZ is (mistakenly) tied in many people's minds to Islam, it makes sense to build interfaith bridges precisely in this context.

If the center had large, gaudy minarets blaring Islamic prayers all through the day, then the first interpretation would be valid.

As it is, however, it is going to be a relatively nondescript building housing any number of community facilities for use by the general public. The whole point of Park51 is to encourage non-muslims to visit it and get acquainted with Islam first-hand.

This is the American way -- people having the freedom to decide for themselves, so why in the world are some people so opposed to it? Could it be that they are afraid to let people bypass their carefully crafted one-dimensional narrative about Islam?

 

[muse]

Some of our Indian Interlocutors have now outed themselves and revealed that their personal ideology, their bias forms the substance of their otherwise informed opinion - they now claim they are more catholic than the pope and hide their bias behind "American" - They seek to conflate Ethnicity and Religion and they are determined that Muslims are not to be thought of as Americans - yet, if they imagine that this attitude will not harm Indians and Hindus and Sikhs, they are mistaken, Diaperheads and Monkey god, these are just the starters are instore for them - Such indians are not thinkng about what the issues are in this made for politics controversy and how much they have ot lose in it, if the constitutional rights of any one group is successfully challeneged in the US, no group, read, Hindus, Sikh, and Jews, in fact no minority that can be successfully villified, will be safe, Do Hindus and Jews imagine that they will be dsafe if Muslim sare no safe? Will their constitutional rights be preseved if tose of Muslims are not?:

Obama speaks out for mosque complex
By Washington Post
Saturday, August 14, 2010


WASHINGTON -- President Obama on Friday forcefully joined the national debate over construction of an Islamic complex near New York's ground zero, telling guests at a White House dinner marking the holy month of Ramadan that opposing the project is at odds with American values.

"Let me be clear: As a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country," Obama said, according to prepared remarks at a White House iftar, the traditional breaking of the daily Ramadan fast.

"That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," he continued. "This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable."

Obama expressed sympathy for the families of those killed in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks by al-Qaida terrorists purporting to act in the name of Islam. But he told the gathering, which included Muslim and other religious leaders, that blocking the mosque -- as some leading Republicans have angrily demanded -- would undermine the country's claim to respect the free practice of religious expression.

The president's statement puts him once again at the center of a cultural clash just as his party enters the final stretch of a difficult congressional campaign. Polls suggest that most Americans disagree with his position; a recent CNN poll found 68 percent opposed to building a mosque near the Sept. 11 site.

Obama, who has made repairing strained U.S. relations with the Islamic world a centerpiece of his presidency, had remained silent for months about the proposal to build the Muslim cultural complex in Lower Manhattan.

As proposed, the Islamic center, formally known as the Cordoba House, would rise 13 stories on land two blocks from the World Trade Center site. It would include a prayer room -- the mosque component of the project -- and "a Sept. 11 memorial and contemplation space." The nonprofit Cordoba Initiative bought the property for $4 million and plans to spend $100 million on the complex.

A New York City planning commission unanimously struck down the final barrier to the project on Aug. 3 by refusing to grant the building that now stands on the site protection as a historic landmark. The existing structure was damaged by debris in the Sept. 11 attacks.

But what began as a local zoning dispute evolved into a raucous national discussion.

A number of prominent Republicans joined some of the families of those killed on Sept. 11 in opposing the mosque, saying it would inappropriately celebrate the religion that al-Qaida leaders say inspired the terrorist attacks.

Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin asked the mosque's supporters in her Twitter feed last month: "Doesn't it stab you in the heart, as it does ours throughout the heartland?" Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich in July called the mosque proposal a "test of the timidity, passivity and historic ignorance of American elites."

But Feisal Abdul Rauf, the imam who is the project's sponsor, has promoted the center as a place to foster religious tolerance, Islamic heritage and healing. Rauf has been vilified by some GOP opponents of the mosque, but he was one of the loudest Muslim voices condemning the Sept. 11 attacks and was a frequent guest and adviser to former President George W. Bush.

Those in favor of the complex received support from New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who in an emotional speech after the commission vote said that denying the mosque would leave Americans "untrue to the best part of ourselves." Speaking of the firefighters and police officers killed in the World Trade Center, Bloomberg added, "We do not honor their lives by denying the very constitutional rights they died protecting."

In a statement, Bloomberg applauded Obama's remarks, calling them a "clarion defense of the freedom of religion."