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Ajai Shukla: Scrap the MMRCA, buy US F-35s

His article is just Pro-US. If India is not looking for Russian made we can go for Eurofighter or Rafale instead of F-35, if we buy F-35s we have to face the problem what is happening in C-17 Globemaster, to safeguard its interest india refuses to sign CISMOA & BECA the consequences are:
Here's the official list of equipment that India won't get as a direct consequence of the hanging CISMOA:

* AN/ARC-222 Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio System (SINCGARS) - Manufacured by Magnovox and administered by the US Air Force

* KV-119 IFF Digital Transponder (Mode 4 Crypto Applique) - Manufactured by Raytheon and administered by the US Air Force

* TACTERM / ANDVT Secure Voice (HF) Terminal - Administered by the US Air Force

* VINSON KY-58 Secure Voice (UHF/VHF) Module - Administered by the US Air Force

* Finally, the Rockwell-Collins AN/ARC-210(V) SATCOM Transceiver's COMSEC/DAMA embdedded RT is replaced with an RT that has no COMSEC/SINCGARS (Data from Livefist blogspot)

If we buy F-35 same thing will happen. Indian bureaucrats are aware of it. so better go for Eurofighter, Rafale.
 
French Defence Chief On The Rafale​
By Shiv Aroor


edouard.jpg


Was at a press event with visiting French Chief of Defence Staff, Admiral Édouard Guillaud, this evening. Apart from a lot of questions on Afghanistan and the Indian Ocean, the Admiral responded to a question about the MMRCA competition by saying, "I am not going to raise the curtain on any specific discussions. Of course it is preferable that India operates the same equipment as us. It would contribute to better interoperability. The Rafale is one of the finest fighter jets in the world right now. India has purchased Mirage-2000s in the past, which continue to be some of the best fighter-bombers in the world. We have always been on India's side strategically."

Admiral Guillaud will also be visiting the Mazagon Dock in Mumbai tomorrow, the yard where India is in the process of license building six Scorpene-class submarines. The long-pending contract to upgrade the Indian Air Force's Mirage fleet stands to be concluded and signed when President Sarkozy visits early December.
 
The F-16, SH, EF and Rafale are currently in production.I'm not sure how much customization is involved in the F-16IN or any of the other proposals AND REGARDING f35 this is what the others think

F-35 JSF: Can It Meet Canada's Needs?

Do u know that Air Power Australia feller's always say that except F-22 no other aircraft is viable :argh: oh man at first i used to like the detailed analysis on this site but i think secretly by posting such articles may be they want to pressurize Australian govt to pressurize America to export F-22. If u know what i mean ;).

I don't say that this is completely baseless article but just think how much can we really decide upon , if the USA which always stays ahead of the world by 10 years at the least, wants to buy these and that too in huge numbers. Are they fools to do it Connax u tell me.
 
This is mind games, no companies are buying journalist to further their goals. Ajay Shukla seems to be easy buy.
 
The Central Factor in Selecting the M-MRCA

With the technical, flight and staff evaluation of all the six contenders for the126 M-MRCA fighters now done, time has come to seriously look for a national consensus on the parameters of the selection. This is not a simple acquisition and the decision making will be extremely difficult unless we are clear of the key factors that should be decided upon in advance besides the technical specifications met and as no doubt spelt out in the RFP (Request for Proposals). Our decision must be guided by two basic factors: that nearly a decade has gone past from the time that IAF was looking for a ‘Mirage 2000’ type to fill the slot that has come to be described as the M-MRCA (Medium-Multi Role Combat Aircraft). This term is critically important for a number of reasons.

To begin with, like in most countries, the Ministry of Defence (ours is at South Block) would decide the mix of aircraft types that the IAF would need in future, based on the operational tasks and capabilities, that is, the quality and the quantity, while the Finance Ministry at North Block would look closely at the budgetary costs of acquisition as well as the ‘life-cycle’ costs which would have a major influence on defence budgets for the coming decades. An excessively high-performance (beyond the medium level fighter) will lead to higher costs and budgetary commitments which will force the size of the IAF to be curtailed when it actually needs to get back to 39+ combat squadrons and then expand to the Cabinet-sanctioned 50 squadrons. For obvious reasons the bulk of these factors should, and would, remain classified. Yet the informed public in the world’s largest democracy needs to have some idea of at least the parameters that might finally go into decision making.

The most crucial parameter has already been indicated by the very nomenclature which provides the description of the type of aircraft required: that is, a medium sized multirole combat aircraft. The necessity of this class of aircraft has arisen due to a number of factors. Firstly, we need to fill the gap that has already arisen due to life-expiry of a large force of MiG-21s. The only ‘medium’ sized multi-role combat aircraft left in the IAF today is the Mirage 2000 with an inventory of around 50 aircraft. At the level above that, we are already committed to the heavy Su-30MKI being manufactured in HAL for the past few years. And at the lower size level, that is the light combat (multi-role) combat aircraft: we have already embarked on the indigenously designed LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) that was to have replaced the MiG-21s before they went out of service, which Russian-type itself was a ‘light combat aircraft’. The LCA’s glitches, which inevitably exist in all complex new designs (for example, the F-35), would no doubt keep getting resolved as we go along. Of course it would be useful if the vendor selected for the M-MRCA also gives assistance in incorporating the necessary improvements in the LCA to improve upon it.

In the class of heavy multi role combat aircraft, the choice was made (wisely under the circumstances) a long time ago and the Su-30MKI, which is the envy of our neighbours and the satisfaction of the IAF, is already under series production and this type will likely equip over 60% of IAF’s authorised combat force by the time the last Su-30 rolls out of HAL’s Nasik factory. No doubt the FGFA fifthgeneration fighter (which is largely based on Su-30/35 technologies) to be jointly developed by Russia and India would at a later date add to the heavy category. About 16-20% of the authorised combat force (around126-200 aircraft) would then need to be equipped by the medium multi-role combat aircraft, the balance 20%, hopefully by the indigenous LCA. This raises the question of what type and size of aircraft we should looking at, subject to its operational parameters for satisfying the IAF needs.

The cost and performance of a combat aircraft broadly depends upon its size and weight and what avionics and weapons it carries. This parameter would virtually rule out the Boeing Super Hornet (an excellent aircraft in its class) and the MiG-35 (for another reason) but both not too far from the Su-30 in size or origin. It would neither be prudent nor affordable to maintain nearly 80% of the combat force consisting of just heavy multi-role aircraft from a single source for the coming decades since the world situation would no doubt have undergone major changes during this period.

At around 24,000 kg maximum weight, the French Rafale and the European Eurofighter Typhoon also come closer to the upper end of a medium combat aircraft. They offer great advantage in the quantum of fuel and weapon load carried, but it is only actual operation and detailed cost calculations that can tell us of their desirability in our inventory. This leaves us with two types with obvious advantages of being clearly in the category of ‘Medium’ multi-role combat aircraft that have been offered in the RFP: the US Lockheed’s F-16IN Super Viper and the Swedish Saab Gripen NG/IN, both configured specially to meet Indian requirements (hence the ‘IN’ in their nomenclature).

Popular perceptions may opt against the F-16 since this has been mainstay with the Pakistan Air Force since 1982 and recent inductions are raising that force level to as many as 118 F-16s in PAF inventory. These are being upgraded, but are expected to remain somewhat ‘inferior’ to the F-16s being offered to India which should be taken serious note of. While the F-16 would remain the backbone of the Pakistan Air Force, its Indian version would imply a maximum of 16-20% of the IAF combat force level with the Su-30MKI far outstripping it in numbers. There is also an advantage if the United States is willing to transfer (on lease or sale) 100-odd partially used F-16s from its Air National Guard to the IAF.

However, the choice that comes closest to the ‘medium’ multi-role aircraft that the IAF has been seeking since a decade ago (the Mirage 2000 type) is the Swedish Gripen which has maximum and empty weights at around 17,000 kg and 7,000 kg respectively, almost equal to that of the Mirage 2000. Since the Mirage 2000 is not in the running anymore, this makes it necessary to focus on the aircraft type closest to the medium combat aircraft, that is, the Swedish Gripen and Lockheed-Martin F-16, with the EADS Eurofighter Typhoon included at the higher end. Gripen’s manufacturers could also offer some aircraft from Swedish Air Force reserves as an interim. However much would depend upon what is carried by the aircraft in terms of avionics and weapons apart from its flying performance that meets our needs.

But there is a larger issue that should receive serious attention: this refers to the other matter we set out to deal with, that is the impact of acquisitions from abroad on our aircraft industry in the future. It is vital that the next fighter deal must go well beyond simple purchase and even local manufacture of the fighter and its major systems. Even the licence manufacture option leaves the country dependent on external sources of supply. We were lulled in the past into the belief that ‘transfer of technology’ was taking place while and vertical partnerships and, secondly, empower India’s industry through capacity building with acquisition of modern aerospace technology. Both these principles are crucial to strengthening self-reliance through enhancing mutual dependence with countries and their industries that are willing to do so. These are also important for sustaining our broader techno-economic growth rates. But these requirements can be met only through the reality that it was ‘production technology’ that was actually transferred and not the essential design technology and data. This is why we have had to go back to Moscow to upgrade even the comparatively less sophisticated aircraft like the MiG-21. We now have the Su-30 being manufactured under license though we don’t know how much design data is being transferred to HAL. This is probably the reason for Russian discomfort over inclusion of the offsets clause from new purchases from them.

Large investments in defence modernisation with high-technology weapons, particularly the acquisition of new fighters must be leveraged to energise our defence (especially aerospace) industry once it is clear that they fit into our doctrine and strategy in the larger context of what quality and quantity of aerospace forces are required for the next several decades. This should aim to serve two key purposes: build interdependence through horizontal process of acquisition and horizontal diffusion of technology beyond our present vertically organised hierarchical aircraft design and development model remotely, but firmly, managed from South Block. Global trends in aerospace industry on one side and India’s growing technological and economic capabilities on the other, point towards seeking mutual advantages in pursuing the horizontal technology diffusion route. This is where the issue of offsets assumes great importance.

The offsets clause in our procurement policy may be seen by many as infusing FDI to the extent of 30-50% of every contract into our economy. In spite of large reserves of foreign exchange available, future FDI would continue to be an important factor. But this cannot be the primary reason for seeking offsets. We will need spare parts for thirty years or more. In between there will be many requirements of modifications and upgrades of the systems. We should be able to provide as much as possible from indigenous (mostly private) industry through joint ventures that must be negotiated now. The importance and extent of such agreements would be crucial to maintaining high serviceability and low accident rates of the combat force and hence its effectiveness during war over the next three decades, and more.

The IAF’s new fighter would require a mid-life upgrade 10-15 years after it enters service and this should provide a benchmark criterion for offsets to establish the ability to design and undertake that in India. This can be expected only if the prime manufacturers establish the necessary design, development and production facilities in country. The Maruti-Suzuki experience of vendor development which has led to high levels of automotive parts exports needs a special look in this regard. It needs to be remembered that design and development is the foundation for self-reliance and till recently this had suffered in our aircraft industry. The new M-MRCA has already been designed elsewhere. But we still have opportunities to access design and development of components, systems and sub-systems in partnership with foreign enterprises.

Ultimately all this must fit into the principle of broader national interests and (grand?) geopolitical strategy to sustain them beyond system costs and performance factors. The question of American ‘reliability’ will continue to worry a lot of minds for a long time. But in this business, most suppliers would be under the same scanner. European policies in the past have raised doubts about the impact of US policies on even product support and now some EU partners’ differences may also impact their future actions. The Soviet Union (and the relationship it had with us) disappeared long ago and new dimensions are already impacting Indo-Russian arms relationship, not the least of them being the Russian highend military technology flows to China and the China-Pakistan strategic nexus where China is one of the two suppliers of high-technology arms for the Pakistan Air Force. The signals that Moscow is sending out are not very encouraging.

In the ultimate analysis our decision on the new M-MRCA must rest on broader national interests.

Air Commodore Jasjit Singh
Director,
Centre for Air Power Studies







Now a new winner is fore seen :agree:
 
Do u know that Air Power Australia feller's always say that except F-22 no other aircraft is viable :argh: oh man at first i used to like the detailed analysis on this site but i think secretly by posting such articles may be they want to pressurize Australian govt to pressurize America to export F-22. If u know what i mean ;).

I don't say that this is completely baseless article but just think how much can we really decide upon , if the USA which always stays ahead of the world by 10 years at the least, wants to buy these and that too in huge numbers. Are they fools to do it Connax u tell me.

ok lets keep our diferences aside regarding the topic for a while just think of how many strings we have to face when we get the F 35 and we have fighters like mig 27 and jags becoming absolute AND YOU GOT A LONG LIST OF ORDERS FOR F35 so it will be too late for IAF by the time our turn come into picture even if we sign the agreement to buy f35 today next we are getting PAKFA and we got MKI'S to take care of china so what is left here is pakistan in case or if at all we have a war i think MMRCA aircraft will counter PAF effectively and we have OUR OWN MCA and FGFA IN THE LINE so it dosent fit in FOR IAF BUT i do agree it will fit well for INAF
 
Strange days at the moment, one stupid analysis following the other. First 35 although it does not fulfull major requirements of MMRCA (no induction of first squad in 2014, no licence production in India) and now this. :hitwall:

The cost and performance of a combat aircraft broadly depends upon its size and weight and what avionics and weapons it carries...

...This leaves us with two types with obvious advantages of being clearly in the category of ‘Medium’ multi-role combat aircraft that have been offered in the RFP: the US Lockheed’s F-16IN Super Viper and the Swedish Saab Gripen NG/IN, both configured specially to meet Indian requirements (hence the ‘IN’ in their nomenclature).

So because size and weight F16IN is a medium weight fighter and Rafale is heavy weight fighter right? :disagree:

Length: F16IN - 15.03m / Rafale - 15.27m
Wingspan: F16IN - 10.00m / Rafale - 10.80m
Height: F16IN - 5.09m / Rafale - 5.34m
Empty weight: F16IN - 9979 kg / Rafale - 9500 kg
MTOW: F16IN - 21800Kg / Rafale - 24500Kg

KZDoXBcg6pMd21B6XK4047tcgzOomwu7.jpg


13bh29rglmbghqsyxf0ghy5zr0.jpg


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French Air Force Rafales Deploy to Luke AFB | News*| Fence Check


This is where the issue of offsets assumes great importance.

And that is why the vendor that can offer the least ammount of offsets (SAAB) is a good idea?

We will need spare parts for thirty years or more. In between there will be many requirements of modifications and upgrades of the systems. We should be able to provide as much as possible from indigenous (mostly private) industry through joint ventures that must be negotiated now.

Saab offers modification of weapons, but not spares, neither integration of Indian parts. How could they, when most of the fighter is already foreign? Do we have to discuss about Indian parts in US fighters?

The importance and extent of such agreements would be crucial to maintaining high serviceability and low accident rates of the combat force and hence its effectiveness during war over the next three decades, and more.

Is it me, or do they discribe the Mirage 2000 experience in IAF here?
So why would be the fighter that is based on exactly this Mirage is a bad idea again?
 
ok lets keep our diferences aside regarding the topic for a while just think of how many strings we have to face when we get the F 35 and we have fighters like mig 27 and jags becoming absolute AND YOU GOT A LONG LIST OF ORDERS FOR F35 so it will be too late for IAF by the time our turn come into picture even if we sign the agreement to buy f35 today next we are getting PAKFA and we got MKI'S to take care of china so what is left here is pakistan in case or if at all we have a war i think MMRCA aircraft will counter PAF effectively and we have OUR OWN MCA and FGFA IN THE LINE so it dosent fit in FOR IAF BUT i do agree it will fit well for INAF

On this post i am completely agreeing with you. No doubt F-35 would be a overkill.

However as we advance into future may be i mean may be some 20 years down the line our MMRCA could become obsolete u know. Just my personal thought.
 
US to give $2 bn military aid to Pakistan

I am quite sure atleast 1 billion dollars from this 2 billion would in form F16, Bvr and may AWACS.

Obama mission: Billions to Pakistan, billions from India - The Times of India

We should go for mix of Rafale and Gripen NG(This way we would have a managed to keep the costs low and balance between quantity and quality could have been achived.) or anything other than American fighter. Most important thing in this MMRCA is not just A2G capability of fighter but also ToT.
Because this ToT would Boost HAL and other allied High Tech Indian firms into big league. In 3-4 months if MOD are not satisfied with ToT being offered by GE for GE404 then they should cancel the deal go to the Europeans.

Otherwise If the MMRCA goes to US then we just end up financing arms bonanza that Uncle Sam has decided to lavish upon Pakistan.
 
the problem faced by IAF is depleting squadrons and mig 27 is a 3.5 generation fighter bomber so we have atleast 100 of them operational so we got no choice but to go for MMRCA and replace them and we can only do this i mean we can only effectively replace them if the IAF chooses a fighter that is in full production well that IS THE BIG QUESTION

On this post i am completely agreeing with you. No doubt F-35 would be a overkill.

However as we advance into future may be i mean may be some 20 years down the line our MMRCA could become obsolete u know. Just my personal thought.
WELL THIS IDEA OF YOURS WILL FIT WITH NAVY DOCTORINE by the time IAC 2& 3 arrives we can have the F35.

atleast 2 squadrons will do the job for the navy thus filling all the gaps
 
US to give $2 bn military aid to Pakistan

I am quite sure atleast 1 billion dollars from this 2 billion would in form F16, Bvr and may AWACS.

Obama mission: Billions to Pakistan, billions from India - The Times of India

We should go for mix of Rafale and Gripen NG(This way we would have a managed to keep the costs low and balance between quantity and quality could have been achived.) or anything other than American fighter. Most important thing in this MMRCA is not just A2G capability of fighter but also ToT.
Because this ToT would Boost HAL and other allied High Tech Indian firms into big league. In 3-4 months if MOD are not satisfied with ToT being offered by GE for GE404 then they should cancel the deal go to the Europeans.

Otherwise If the MMRCA goes to US then we just end up financing arms bonanza that Uncle Sam has decided to lavish upon Pakistan.

but you know pakistan has its own headaches with uncle sams products
 
US to give $2 bn military aid to Pakistan

I am quite sure atleast 1 billion dollars from this 2 billion would in form F16, Bvr and may AWACS.

Obama mission: Billions to Pakistan, billions from India - The Times of India

We should go for mix of Rafale and Gripen NG(This way we would have a managed to keep the costs low and balance between quantity and quality could have been achived.) or anything other than American fighter. Most important thing in this MMRCA is not just A2G capability of fighter but also ToT.
Because this ToT would Boost HAL and other allied High Tech Indian firms into big league. In 3-4 months if MOD are not satisfied with ToT being offered by GE for GE404 then they should cancel the deal go to the Europeans.

Otherwise If the MMRCA goes to US then we just end up financing arms bonanza that Uncle Sam has decided to lavish upon Pakistan.

one should not forget and always keep in mind that pakistan is a non-nato ally of amarica...
 
US to give $2 bn military aid to Pakistan

I am quite sure atleast 1 billion dollars from this 2 billion would in form F16, Bvr and may AWACS.

Obama mission: Billions to Pakistan, billions from India - The Times of India

We should go for mix of Rafale and Gripen NG(This way we would have a managed to keep the costs low and balance between quantity and quality could have been achived.) or anything other than American fighter. Most important thing in this MMRCA is not just A2G capability of fighter but also ToT.
Because this ToT would Boost HAL and other allied High Tech Indian firms into big league. In 3-4 months if MOD are not satisfied with ToT being offered by GE for GE404 then they should cancel the deal go to the Europeans.

Otherwise If the MMRCA goes to US then we just end up financing arms bonanza that Uncle Sam has decided to lavish upon Pakistan.

Don't get paranoid, this 2B$ is spread over 5 year time period, meaning 400M$ per year availability and they would be used for COIN related equipment not F-16s, BVRs or AWACS.
 
Strange days at the moment, one stupid analysis following the other. First 35 although it does not fulfull major requirements of MMRCA (no induction of first squad in 2014, no licence production in India) and now this. :hitwall:


So because size and weight F16IN is a medium weight fighter and Rafale is heavy weight fighter right? :disagree:

Length: F16IN - 15.03m / Rafale - 15.27m
Wingspan: F16IN - 10.00m / Rafale - 10.80m
Height: F16IN - 5.09m / Rafale - 5.34m
Empty weight: F16IN - 9979 kg / Rafale - 9500 kg
MTOW: F16IN - 21800Kg / Rafale - 24500Kg

KZDoXBcg6pMd21B6XK4047tcgzOomwu7.jpg


13bh29rglmbghqsyxf0ghy5zr0.jpg


ydrn9kxkxneoqoqhj9jos8hml0.jpg


zeql4ub0025ewcqoucpmh8raa8.jpg


French Air Force Rafales Deploy to Luke AFB | News*| Fence Check


And that is why the vendor that can offer the least ammount of offsets (SAAB) is a good idea?

Saab offers modification of weapons, but not spares, neither integration of Indian parts. How could they, when most of the fighter is already foreign? Do we have to discuss about Indian parts in US fighters?

Is it me, or do they discribe the Mirage 2000 experience in IAF here?
So why would be the fighter that is based on exactly this Mirage is a bad idea again?

hmmmm Brother different people different perception.. My guess is he is another shukla ji or Vishnu.. supporting there views.. but i liked his logical analysis.... Though i dont alias with his view on Rafael and EF .. though he agrees they fall under Medium but points intelligently as Upper medium and skip them.. what the heck is upper or lower? Anything between the range is medium...

This Commodore gave an intelligent analysis pointing Maintenance on size and other parameters.. and the TOT offset called production tech
and not the design tech..

This kind of views will largely makes every one confuse what IAF wants.. The only way we can come this viscous circle is by drawing a line this is the requirement from Aircraft and ToT.. who ever gives the best product will clinch the deal...


Nowerdays this MMRCA has become like a soap with lot of twist and turns.. running for years...
 
but you know pakistan has its own headaches with uncle sams products

Do u think the Americans would let them buy Chinese or may be European Stuff with Their Money.

At the time of any Indo-Pak spat if the Pakistanis manage to harm Indian economy and its people using this 2 billion stuff ,PA's mission would be accomplished . Sanctions may make 2billion dollar stuff useless but by then these weapons have served their purpose. Look Pakistan has not much to loose even if we inflict them with twice the damage as done by them to us. After the spat Pakistan has Arab and China to help them out in such situation but we got none. Any conflict would push us atleast a decade back and worst thing about these weapons is that it boosts the confidence of PA and then they become more adventurous. And things like Kargil happen.
 
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