Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Sayfullah]

mark my word, a single engine medium weight stealthy fighter based on WS15 engine will join PAF in the future.

Is it going to be a JV like JF-17?

 

[fasiiih]

Strikingly similar or at-least close to what it looks like
View attachment 824893

Remind me of SAAB's FS2020 twin engine design study..

 

[SQ8]

PAC: Makes ten concepts in CAD

Pakistanis:

 

[PakShaheen79]

So, basically, we are standing right there where we were 5 years ago when we first learned about completion of first phase of preliminary design study in 2017-18,

 

[SQ8]

So, basically, we are standing right there where we were 5 years ago when we first learned about completion of first phase of preliminary design study in 2017-18,

What is the basis for that conclusion?

 

[PakShaheen79]

What is the basis for that conclusion?

1. No new update
2. Multiple design images released in various videos hinting that PAF is intended to get it but still no design finalization like it was in 2017-18.
3. Rumors that Stealth fighter part of Azm is already abandoned in fav of a collaborative project with TAI.
4. Lack of required industrial and knowledge base in the country and very little improvement in that during the last 5 years.

Wanted to be proven wrong on all of these

 

[SQ8]

1. No new update
2. Multiple design images released in various videos hinting that PAF is intended to get it but still no design finalization like it was in 2017-18.
3. Rumors that Stealth fighter part of Azm is already abandoned in fav of a collaborative project with TAI.
4. Lack of required industrial and knowledge base in the country and very little improvement in that during the last 5 years.

Wanted to be proven wrong on all of these

1. What update are you expecting? The F-35 began its lifecycle in 1995 and other than company updates nothing major was seen until the X-35 was rolled out in 2000.
This was with Lockheed Martin which is a major public defense contractor and well funded.
The J-20 took 10 years from project funding to prototype and this was Chengdu which had been building aircraft for 40 years or more.
Just because you aren’t privy to monthly meetings or the close to 25 different projects running under the guise of this requirement doesn’t mean work was done..

Now, was work done to the degree it was planned is a different question but to bemoan that “Nothing has been done” is plain ignorant

2. Multiple aerodynamic platform designs - a 5th generation fighter is more than what flies: Avionics(radar,ew suite) and powerplant concerns.

3. Possibly and not possibly- Air Staff requirements are evaluated every year if not every 6 months and if it turns out PACs progress or funds alone wont yield a fighter needed by 2028 then they will go with the TFX or anything else.
Chengdu offered the PAF a design as well ten years ago but lack of funds made that go nowhere.

4. Possibly, a lot of brain drain occurs and the lack of stable economic conditions do not bode well for smart people who have other avenues to look for their future. After all, if you are generally a crappy society and academically dishonest then only expect what you can generate. From that perspective you really shouldn’t be complaining because that is what is available to PAC. So keep only those expectations which are realistic knowing that Pakistan Air Force is formed with Pakistanis of which you are one and so is everyone around you including Fazlur Rehman, “I love corruption” PML(N) supporters, Nida Kirmani and the water car engineer.

 

[帅的一匹]

Is it going to be a JV like JF-17?

It’s a reasonable and logical way to go

 

[JamD]

Indeed.

I had immediately googled to see if it was a copy of an existing design. It was not. The closest to it was the X-35. I could not believe my eyes.

Talking of only the design elements observable in what has been disclosed by PAF (because some details are yet hidden), the canted twin-tails are perhaps the most challenging part. The join will be very difficult. This would perhaps require Titanium & I wondered if that is something Pakistan could manage doing? It also raised a couple of questions in my mind - one of them being if Pakistan is seriously working on this. I mean just look at that join, which would undergo very high stresses. Also, the behavior of the twin canted tails in the turbulent/vortex flow was an immediate question mark. I have nearly zero study of aerodynamics, but I could see that this would also be a challenge to design around.

In case somebody has noticed, I am a bit dismissive of this design. The above are some of my concerns that lead me to be skeptical.

Some conversations from behind these designs:
The second in command of Azm did not want canards because they were providing only marginal benefit at the expense of increased RCS. But for some reason the first in command of Azm has insisted on a design with canards. It would be appear that his persistence has won out. You will recall that there was also a canard-less design. This story didnt fill me with confidence because it sounded like design decisions that should be made on scientific merits were being made on egos/chain of command. Let's see what becomes of this effort. At the very least it is good practice.

Also from all that I heard it didnt appear like structural design was on anyone's minds. It was aerodynamics and RCS.

 

[SQ8]

Some conversations from behind these designs:
The second in command of Azm did not want canards because they were providing only marginal benefit at the expense of increased RCS. But for some reason the first in command of Azm has insisted on a design with canards. It would be appear that his persistence has won out. You will recall that there was also a canard-less design. This story didnt fill me with confidence because it sounded like design decisions that should be made on scientific merits were being made on egos/chain of command. Let's see what becomes of this effort. At the very least it is good practice.

Also from all that I heard it didnt appear like structural design was on anyone's minds. It was aerodynamics and RCS.

As have always been and led to the many disasters that Pakistan has faced.

 

[MastanKhan]

mark my word, a single engine medium weight stealthy fighter based on WS15 engine will join PAF in the future.

Hi,

You are correct---but then there is a condition.

Which is---if Pakistan has the time on its side---. Otherwise the first 5th gen maybe off the shelf---.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Some conversations from behind these designs:
The second in command of Azm did not want canards because they were providing only marginal benefit at the expense of increased RCS. But for some reason the first in command of Azm has insisted on a design with canards. It would be appear that his persistence has won out. You will recall that there was also a canard-less design. This story didnt fill me with confidence because it sounded like design decisions that should be made on scientific merits were being made on egos/chain of command. Let's see what becomes of this effort. At the very least it is good practice.

Also from all that I heard it didnt appear like structural design was on anyone's minds. It was aerodynamics and RCS.

The other problem with canards with the images we have seen so far of Azm is - the FBW requirements of Azm are massive(more so that other 5th/6th gen concepts out there) since you are proposing 3 different horizontal surfaces(canards, wing, tail wings) that have to control airflow versus 2 which is the norm. So - whoever made the decision to have a "3-rd" control surface - does not appreciate the complexity of the FBW to support that configuration for a 3-axis quadraplex FBW system............

If you take what FBW has to deal with to make an unstable plane fly - then you add on top different payload considerations - some of which are assymetric in weight - then the complex scenarios that the FBW has to handle for different altitude, speed and directions go up massively... That is a lot of very very serious complex math there - has anyone seen anything in Pakistan that shows it can handle this complexity???? Germany insisted on doing the FBW for the Typhoon and it delayed the project by many many years while they worked out how to do it - and Germany has a lot more high end scientific universities that can and did help to get it to work ...

This is why I was asking about the FBW for the TFX .... i was curious - ie will it be a Turkish greenfield FBW.. If so - then a very significant achievement.

There are few instances of operational frontline planes with 3 surfaces - Su30MKI counts as one of them and a suite of of experimental planes.

 

[S.Y.A]

4. Possibly, a lot of brain drain occurs and the lack of stable economic conditions do not bode well for smart people who have other avenues to look for their future.

...and what steps have been taken to retain such a resource by PAF?

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

and what steps have been taken to retain such a resource by PAF

To stop this they will have to change whole work culture in research organizations which is not gona happen any time soon.
But due to establishment of new organizations like National Aerospace Science and Technology Park (NASTP),
hopefully military involvement in research works will be limited and we will be able to see some actual change in next 20+ years down the line.

 

[JamD]

The other problem with canards with the images we have seen so far of Azm is - the FBW requirements of Azm are massive(more so that other 5th/6th gen concepts out there) since you are proposing 3 different horizontal surfaces(canards, wing, tail wings) that have to control airflow versus 2 which is the norm. So - whoever made the decision to have a "3-rd" control surface - does not appreciate the complexity of the FBW to support that configuration for a 3-axis quadraplex FBW system............

If you take what FBW has to deal with to make an unstable plane fly - then you add on top different payload considerations - some of which are assymetric in weight - then the complex scenarios that the FBW has to handle for different altitude, speed and directions go up massively... That is a lot of very very serious complex math there - has anyone seen anything in Pakistan that shows it can handle this complexity???? Germany insisted on doing the FBW for the Typhoon and it delayed the project by many many years while they worked out how to do it - and Germany has a lot more high end scientific universities that can and did help to get it to work ...

This is why I was asking about the FBW for the TFX .... i was curious - ie will it be a Turkish greenfield FBW.. If so - then a very significant achievement.

There are few instances of operational frontline planes with 3 surfaces - Su30MKI counts as one of them and a suite of of experimental planes.

Right. FCS is our biggest blindspot in my opinion. This opinion is based on
1. my undergraduate experience where our university could never find a single capable person to teach us control systems.
2. this is my area of expertise and I've had total cold calls from people working in Azm asking help on FCS. These people were not controls engineers but being asked to do FCS because "how hard can it be" mentality. Of course I can be of little or no use to them sitting outside and giving general directions.
3. I know a lot of people working at Azm and I know their knowledge base. Most of them are undergrads from Pakistan and I already said how much undergrads are taught controls in Pakistan. I can literally count Pakistani control engineers on one hand. The people with masters are all people with expertise in structural CFD and turbo machinery type fields.

But I didn't want to talk about the giant FCS shaped hole because it is after all my area of expertise and I realize that I may be biased towards it and overemphasize its importance.


The only FCS Pakistan has experience with are those of UAVs. To the best of my knowledge there is 0 experience on FBW systems. In fact PAC was unable to absorb any of the FBW tech of the JF17 because they didn't have the human/technical resource for it. As you can imagine even the FCS expertise lives in compartmentalized clusters in various SPD organizations that make UAVs and CMs. FBW is more complicated than a FCS because you have a human directly in the loop and a person in the plane that you need to secure with a lot of redundancy.

To stop this they will have to change whole work culture in research organizations which is not gona happen any time soon.
But due to establishment of new organizations like National Aerospace Science and Technology Park (NASTP),
hopefully military involvement in research works will be limited and we will be able to see some actual change in next 20+ years down the line.

These are good steps for sure but without a robust economy and stability all of these will become pipedreams. It's not just the military that needs to get its act together.