NOT NEWS BASED - Small thought on China's history, Confucianism and Treason

[below_freezing]

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Sorry to say this but we have little to be proud of as a nation after the Song Dynasty. Since 1200 we've been a conquered race. Han and Tang were the top of Chinese culture, and since Tang, we've been in decline. Our major inventions of gunpowder, printing, compass, and paper were all done by 1200. The other invention of mass steel production was also done by 1200.

Even though the Ming Dynasty was rich and powerful for a time, it was also cruel and oppressive, with the Hongwu Emperor being a paranoid dictator that skinned thousands alive for even talking about him wrong. Technologically, besides large ships and military technology, the Ming Dynasty was already showing signs of falling behind Europe.

Our culture is one of treason against ourselves and self hate ever since the Tang Dynasty. The more Confucian the worse it was. I am worried about the future of the PRC. Confucianism is an ideology of treason, self hatred and apathy. The Cultural Revolution was 100% justified. We needed to uproot Confucianism and replace it with nationalism. Chiang tried the same in the 1930's New Life movement but failed. The cultural revolution also failed. Confucianism is back. The government is promoting it.

Why is Confucianism dangerous? It makes people apathetic. It is a naive and foolish theory that treats society as a family, the relationship between state and individual the same as that between father and son. It is not based on observations of nature the way Taoism is, it is not based on law like Legalism is, it is not based on any empirical views but rather is the musings of 1 man whose ideology was rejected by every state he visited.

In times of plenty the downsides of Confucianism are not obvious, but in times of war, how many will die this time? With nuclear weapons, the cost of treason has risen immensely, and we still can't suppress it. We can't even suppress corrupt officials, how can we suppress treason?

Even India's corrupt politicians are preferable to our Confucian system. No Indian politician would ever betray India if it was invaded by China even as they send money to Swiss Banks. But if China was invaded by the US, can you guarantee that no military commanders will align with the US? We may say, this sounds ridiculous! But the National Revolutionary Army in 1937 was huge with 8 million members, trained by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union in latest tactics, equipped by US arms, and still fell to the 3 million strong Japanese army, not least because of the presence of millions of traitors.

We may say that the trend at the end of the war was towards a Japanese defeat anyways, but remember, the Song also won occasional battles against the Mongols.

Will history repeat again?

Mao built the PRC as a revolutionary totalitarian state in the mold of other totalitarian societies like the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. This sort of totalitarianism, that of an ideology not an individual, empowers and motivates citizens. Citizens became personally responsible for their role in building China. They had a personal stake in the welfare of the country. There were no traitors in Mao's day. There were no criminals in Mao's day. Chinese from Hong Kong and Malaysia would fight and die for communism without Mao saying 1 word. Chinese scientists would return from the West to build China's military with foreign expertise. Compare that to today!

Mere authoritarianism disconnects citizens from their government. It is the worst of both totalitarianism and democracy.

To eliminate treason, China must eliminate or at least suppress Confucianism. Other nations can afford traitors because they'll be puppets of great powers anyways, but great nations like China can't afford traitors. We need either fascism or democracy. The current system is unsustainable.

China does not need tolerance, forgiveness, or sympathy. We need skinheads. The day China has skinheads that stab and rob foreigners with police collusion, is the day I'd be happy to call myself Chinese.

 

[below_freezing]

additional reading (interview with General Zhang Zhaozhong) on China's Culture of Treason

????_??_XCAR ?

http://club.china.com/data/thread/1011/108/60/56/3_1.html

 

[Martian2]

It is incorrect to confuse Confucianism with an underdeveloped industrial base. Confucianism is the basic organization of Chinese society and it centers on the ideas of harmony, family, cooperation, etc. If you read Western news articles, many ascribe the rise of East Asia (e.g. Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Hong Kong, and China) to Confucianism.

In my view, the problem was not Confucianism. The problem was foreign invasions that caused chaos in Chinese society. In 1839, Britain invaded China in the first Opium War. Britain used its military might to force China to become a nation of addled drug users. In 1856, the British invaded China again in the second Opium War. Britain was a criminal drug pusher in China and determined to keep China weak. After all, China cannot rise when her citizens are addicted to opium.

In 1895, the Japanese joined the British crimes against humanity by waging a war of aggression against China. Japan stole the Daiyou Islands and Taiwan from China at gunpoint.

In 1901, China tried to throw off the shackles of Western colonialism/slavery through the Boxer Rebellion. The Boxer Rebellion was crushed by yet another foreign invasion of eight aggressor nations (e.g. Japan, Russia, Britain, France, United States, Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Italy ["ordered by troop contribution"]).

In 1937, Japan invaded China in force and World War II had begun in Asia.

After the end of World War II in 1945, New China began under the management of the China Communist Party (CCP) in 1949.

Under Mao Tse Tung, New China detonated an atomic bomb in 1964 and a 3.3-megaton thermonuclear bomb in 1967.

In 1970, China orbited her first satellite (hint: China can easily place a nuclear payload on top of that rocket).

Under Mao Tse Tung and the CCP, New China put an end to foreign invasions. Once foreign invasions stopped, China had time to reorganize her society and devote energy to developing her economic and technological strengths.

In conclusion, the problem was never Confucianism. The problem was foreign invasions. Once China (under Mao Tse Tung) acquired sufficient military strength (e.g. thermonuclear weapons and ballistic missiles), China had the breathing room needed to develop into an economic (e.g. world's second-largest economy) and future military superpower (e.g. J-20 Mighty Dragon stealth fighter, Type 052C Lanzhou-class destroyer with phased-array radar, etc.).

The lesson is to always maintain a military with sufficient power to prevent foreign invasions. The lesson is not to change Chinese culture. Chinese Confucian culture has worked well for thousands of years. The mistake was to not take foreign barbarians seriously and their dangerous leap in military weaponry.

 

[siegecrossbow]

You are throwing out the baby with the bathwater here belowfreezing.

 

[CardSharp]

You are throwing out the baby with the bathwater here belowfreezing.

Was that your only concern in that whole spiel?

 

[praveen]

Chinese posters can anyone tell me how did buddhism take root in a country like China where an ideology like confucianism was supreme.China reems to be an enigma wrapped in an enigma

 

[ZhengHe]

Chinese posters can anyone tell me how did buddhism take root in a country like China where an ideology like confucianism was supreme.China reems to be an enigma wrapped in an enigma

Because it adopted to Confucianism and Taoism.

I would say it is like if you live somewhere really hot and all year round you would just wear a t-shirt, then someone shows up and gives you a white beater, which works fine. However, if someone shows up and brings you a jacket, it would not work.

Christianity didn't take root like Buddhism did simply because it was too fundamentally different.

 

[somebozo]

China in next ten years has to reinvent itself through great diplomatic feat and sending chinese people all over the world as engineers, teachers, doctors and students otherwise it will fail to introduce itself as world power and enter a state of decline. Pretty much what happened with soviet union as it was cleverly curtailed by so called "Iron curtain"

 

[below_freezing]

It is incorrect to confuse Confucianism with an underdeveloped industrial base. Confucianism is the basic organization of Chinese society and it centers on the ideas of harmony, family, cooperation, etc. If you read Western news articles, many ascribe the rise of East Asia (e.g. Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Hong Kong, and China) to Confucianism.

In my view, the problem was not Confucianism. The problem was foreign invasion that caused chaos in Chinese society. In 1839, Britain invaded China in the first Opium War. Britain used its military might to force China to become a nation of addled drug users. In 1856, the British invaded China again in the second Opium War. Britain was a criminal drug pusher in China and determined to keep China weak. After all, China cannot rise when her citizens are addicted to opium.

In 1895, the Japanese joined the British crimes against humanity by waging a war of aggression against China. Japan stole the Daiyou Islands and Taiwan from China at gunpoint.

In 1901, China tried to throw off the shackles of Western colonialism/slavery through the Boxer Rebellion. The Boxer Rebellion was crushed by yet another foreign invasion of eight aggressor nations (e.g. Japan, Russia, Britain, France, United States, Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Italy ["ordered by troop contribution"]).

In 1937, Japan invaded China in force and World War II had begun in Asia.

After the end of World War II in 1945, New China began under the management of the China Communist Party (CCP) in 1949.

Under Mao Tse Tung, New China detonated an atomic bomb in 1964 and a 3.3-megaton thermonuclear bomb in 1967.

In 1970, China orbited her first satellite (hint: China can easily place a nuclear payload on top of that rocket).

Under Mao Tse Tung and the CCP, New China put an end to foreign invasions. Once foreign invasions stopped, China had time to reorganize her society and devote energy to developing her economic and technological strengths.

In conclusion, the problem was never Confucianism. The problem was foreign invasions. Once China (under Mao Tse Tung) acquired sufficient military strength (e.g. thermonuclear weapons and ballistic missiles), China had the breathing room needed to develop into an economic (e.g. world's second-largest economy) and future military superpower (e.g. J-20 Mighty Dragon stealth fighter, Type 052C Lanzhou class destroyer with phased-array radar, etc.).

The lesson is to always maintain a military with sufficient power to prevent foreign invasions. The lesson is not to change Chinese culture. Chinese Confucian culture has worked well for thousands of years. The mistake was to not take foreign barbarians seriously and their dangerous leap in military weaponry.

Chinese culture has NOT worked well for thousands of years. It worked well for the first 1000 years and terribly the next 1000 years. In the first 1000 years we were a conquering race that expanded our boundaries with sword and cannon. The next 1000 years, we were a conquered race that expanded our boundaries by taking on the territory of the nomads that conquered us.

The Song and Ming dynasties had some of the greatest military technology on earth of their time. Guns, cannons, composite steel swords, in Ming even rockets, mines and missiles. The end result? Total conquest by small tribes of nomads due to internal traitors that turned their high tech weapons against ourselves.

Yes, Mao was a great leaders. The problem is, we can't depend on great leaders to lead us. This is why monarchy fails. The supply of great leaders is far less than the demand. Instead we need a system so that even terrible leaders can't mess up too badly.

You are throwing out the baby with the bathwater here belowfreezing.

No, I am serious. The more I think about it, the more important the Cultural Revolution was. During the industrialization of Britain, many British traditional cultures were lost. Hanged, drawn and quartered, for example. We can measure a society's progress by the time it takes for cruel torture to be phased out. China only did so in 1911 while Britain did in 1780. Confucianism is indeed a naive ideology of submission and turning the complexities of the state into a simple family relationship that promotes cowardice on the outside and cruelty on the inside.

For example, Confucianism's anti-female ideology is terrible and not fit for the modern era. It baffles me how men in ancient China could kill their own children and beat their wives, but when insulted by their landlords, do not rebel until starvation sets in, when thrown in prison, do not even attempt to run away.

Why Confucianism? China has other ideologies. Legalism, for example. Taoism, for example. Confucius was just 1 man that lived 2000 years ago whose ideology was rejected by every state he visited. The Qin dynasty won in the end and instituted legalism. The Han dynasty adopted confucianism later on only to manage the citizens better; Liu Bang himself was deeply skeptical of Confucianism.

 

[no_name]

Ming dynasty was around the time when commerce and trade flourished to new heights, and the social status of the businessmen, traders and people engaged in commerce become elevated, by contrast the intellectuals and the educated class were increasingly sidelined.

Before Ming dynasty there was no open brothel for commoners.
Before Ming, concubines and consorts for the aristocrats and learned people were foremost artists.

There is something similar happening today with the commercially interconnected world we live in. company now have power to lobby and sway central government positions in countries around the world.

 

[praveen]

Because it adopted to Confucianism and Taoism.

I would say it is like if you live somewhere really hot and all year round you would just wear a t-shirt, then someone shows up and gives you a white beater, which works fine. However, if someone shows up and brings you a jacket, it would not work.

Christianity didn't take root like Buddhism did simply because it was too fundamentally different.

Buddhism as a religion is individualistic and Confucianism as a religion or philosophy targets a bunch of people how did they two match?How was buddhism seen by the court elites?Iam sure they might have been lot of fiction wrt to court elites

 

[Rig Vedic]

I don't know much about Confucius, but I have heard that Lao Tzu was a very genuine figure.

If Confucianism promotes the idea of family, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. However, in a healthy family, the creativity of the children must be encouraged, even if they ask uncomfortable questions to their father. Each generation must be better than the previous one.

Maoism is not the solution. You are concerned about treason. You cannot retain the loyalty of people with bankrupt ideologies.

We should first ask a deeper question, what makes humans loyal to one another.

I think China should continue with Lao Tzu, Confucius and Buddha.

 

[S10]

China does not need tolerance, forgiveness, or sympathy. We need skinheads. The day China has skinheads that stab and rob foreigners with police collusion, is the day I'd be happy to call myself Chinese.

That sounds like a shitty society, so no thanks.

 

[ephone]

Chinese culture is more complex than your simple description.

The greatness of Chinese culture is its assimilation of foreign cultures into ours.

The definition of Chinese is not that simple. Within our blood, it consists of those from various parts of the world. Those who used to be our enemies but later chose to stay in the Chinese circle either through inter-racial marriage or adopted our Chinese culture become Chinese.

Even the founding emperor of Tang dynasty is not traditionally-speaking Chinese.

By your description, you seems to put those minorities JIN, YUAN, QING all out of Chinese category. If that is the case, when we look at our past history, there are not many dynasties that were founded by "pure" Chinese.

In addition, there is NO forever surviving conquering races. No matter they were the Romans, the Huns, the Mongolians and etc, their powers were quickly gone.

The only non-stopping surviving civilization is Chinese civilization. Our continuous development is not based on conquering others most of the time.

????????????????????_??_????

Sorry to say this but we have little to be proud of as a nation after the Song Dynasty. Since 1200 we've been a conquered race. Han and Tang were the top of Chinese culture, and since Tang, we've been in decline. Our major inventions of gunpowder, printing, compass, and paper were all done by 1200. The other invention of mass steel production was also done by 1200.

Even though the Ming Dynasty was rich and powerful for a time, it was also cruel and oppressive, with the Hongwu Emperor being a paranoid dictator that skinned thousands alive for even talking about him wrong. Technologically, besides large ships and military technology, the Ming Dynasty was already showing signs of falling behind Europe.

Our culture is one of treason against ourselves and self hate ever since the Tang Dynasty. The more Confucian the worse it was. I am worried about the future of the PRC. Confucianism is an ideology of treason, self hatred and apathy. The Cultural Revolution was 100% justified. We needed to uproot Confucianism and replace it with nationalism. Chiang tried the same in the 1930's New Life movement but failed. The cultural revolution also failed. Confucianism is back. The government is promoting it.

Why is Confucianism dangerous? It makes people apathetic. It is a naive and foolish theory that treats society as a family, the relationship between state and individual the same as that between father and son. It is not based on observations of nature the way Taoism is, it is not based on law like Legalism is, it is not based on any empirical views but rather is the musings of 1 man whose ideology was rejected by every state he visited.

In times of plenty the downsides of Confucianism are not obvious, but in times of war, how many will die this time? With nuclear weapons, the cost of treason has risen immensely, and we still can't suppress it. We can't even suppress corrupt officials, how can we suppress treason?

Even India's corrupt politicians are preferable to our Confucian system. No Indian politician would ever betray India if it was invaded by China even as they send money to Swiss Banks. But if China was invaded by the US, can you guarantee that no military commanders will align with the US? We may say, this sounds ridiculous! But the National Revolutionary Army in 1937 was huge with 8 million members, trained by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union in latest tactics, equipped by US arms, and still fell to the 3 million strong Japanese army, not least because of the presence of millions of traitors.

We may say that the trend at the end of the war was towards a Japanese defeat anyways, but remember, the Song also won occasional battles against the Mongols.

Will history repeat again?

Mao built the PRC as a revolutionary totalitarian state in the mold of other totalitarian societies like the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. This sort of totalitarianism, that of an ideology not an individual, empowers and motivates citizens. Citizens became personally responsible for their role in building China. They had a personal stake in the welfare of the country. There were no traitors in Mao's day. There were no criminals in Mao's day. Chinese from Hong Kong and Malaysia would fight and die for communism without Mao saying 1 word. Chinese scientists would return from the West to build China's military with foreign expertise. Compare that to today!

Mere authoritarianism disconnects citizens from their government. It is the worst of both totalitarianism and democracy.

To eliminate treason, China must eliminate or at least suppress Confucianism. Other nations can afford traitors because they'll be puppets of great powers anyways, but great nations like China can't afford traitors. We need either fascism or democracy. The current system is unsustainable.

China does not need tolerance, forgiveness, or sympathy. We need skinheads. The day China has skinheads that stab and rob foreigners with police collusion, is the day I'd be happy to call myself Chinese.

 

[ephone]

Is that general the one who infamously offered his predictions over and over again, but the reality is just the totally opposite to his prediction???

If we have idiots like him to be in our war planing room, we Chinese are doomed.

additional reading (interview with General Zhang Zhaozhong) on China's Culture of Treason

????_??_XCAR ?

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