IAF Mirage 2000 Upgrade Slowed By Weapons

[Zabaniyah]

MIG-35 only got negative marking in 14 techiNcals points out of which 9 are related to engine alone , that's sumed up how good it performed in over 600 other techincal perameters of all the capabilities which IAF looking for in MMRCA..

Only this thread is not about the MMRCA

The MIG-35 comes with AESA package and coupled with superb aerodynamic capabilities just like the MIG-29. What more can the end user ask? Its a bargain.

 

[tvsram1992]

It is better to buy new ones.
The MIG-35 is a capable jet.

What about 2 migs.2*Mig35-Rafale/Eft

 

[Zabaniyah]

What about 2 migs.2*Mig35-Rafale/Eft

Well, according to some people, the IAF didn't want too many Russian birds on their fleet.

If I am not mistaken, the MIG-35 has 9 hardpoints in total. Whereas the Rafale and EFT have 13. The Armée de l'Air version of Rafale has 14 hardpoints in total. Also, the Rafale is capable of carrying a nuclear warhead.

Maybe that's why they eliminated the MIG-35 during MMRCA.

I could be wrong

The MIG-35 is a very capable fighter. It is a more worthy investment compared to upgrading the old Mirage-2000s. I think the price for the upgrades is kinda inflated

 

[tvsram1992]

Israel succeded in sudden preemptive air strikes, where as pakistan failed in destroying IAF bases in 3 waves. In such air raids speed and agile fighters are useful and air superiority will be less preferred here.
Operation Chengiz Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Operation Focus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mig35 is the best ever fighter that satisfy IAF/ PAF/BAF/SLAF/Latin countries etc needs at low cost.

 

[sancho]

The reason i gave was very much clear. They had long range heavy fighters Su35. Also remember France sacrificed Mirage for Rafale.

No it's not, because by your logic, we must replace light class Mig 21s with heavy class MKIs isn'rt it? Russia has no other option to replace similar light and medium class fighters at the moment other than the Mig 35 and they don't do it, because even they have not much hope about it. Even the Mig 29K is just a stop gap for them, while the aim is N - Pak Fa and N - UCAVs.

Parallel production doesnt mean all at our country. We have only HAL. US had LM,Boeing,Northtrop ,...

Therefore HAL and Mig would have to produce the Mig 35, but HAL will not and Mig isn't which all runs into further delays instead of faster induction, especially for just 50 to 60 fighters.

Mirages, Rafales, EFT has also their aesa radars not there/delayed. Why cant we integrate in the case of Mig35.

Rafales AESA is ready, delivery from next year on, Migs AESA is just under development and not even the additional Mig 29Ks seems to get it anytime soon.

Now already we are experiencing the situation. I mean we are at risk. Once think practically. What is the use of Mig21 against 4th gen fighters and SAM's.

No we are not, today we have not only a numerical but also a technological superiority, because besides around 100 Mig 29 Bisons, the Mig 29 and MKIs are all BVR capable, while PAF has hardly 3 sqads of BVR capable fighters, if at all. Mirage BVR capability so far is more than limited and that's why they have to be upgraded to be more capable than LCA MK1, or JF 17 Block 1.

We had Israeli offer also for Mirage , whats the additional benefits with french, other than using the point "upgrade by the makers".

A complete overhaul of the airfame, additional hardpoints, possibly RCS reductions..., while the Israeli upgrade was limited to radar, avionics and weapons. Personally, I wouldn't mind these parts from Israel, especially if they could be the same like LCA MK1 gets, to increase commonality, but that's IAF decison, not ours.
There were even reports that Dassault had offered a cheaper upgrade, but IAF insisted on the complete and more comprehensive one, so they are ready to pay for it.

 

[DacterSaab]

These fighters were inducted by the IAF in the 1980s that means all of them would be 30 years old soon. So they will become Obsolete by the end of this decade unless they are upgraded in order to maintain their flyability.
Now if the IAF had sufficient squadrons it could afford to replace these planes (it'll take atleast 4 years to build sufficient no. of planes to retire them). This was also 1 of the reasons why the Mig-35 was not selected for MMRCA. Russians couldn't start delivery before 2015 but the IAF wanted production/delivery to begin earlier.
I think it is better if the French upgrade these planes we don't want to loose any more skilled pilots/instructors. I think Mig-21s have already severly dented our experience pool. So on the whole let it cost as much as it can we need these planes flyable for atleast 10-20 years more.

 

[rajusri]

Dump this crappy over-expensive outdated upgrade and buy extra Su-30MKI/Mig-35.

MICA is totally useless and outdated. One of most over-hyped, overpriced missile.

MICA is one of the best missile in the world.

 

[tvsram1992]

MICA is one of the best missile in the world.

There are best missiles that are cost effective. Brahmos comes at the cost of MICA but has a very different purpose.

 

[sancho]

The MIG-35 is a very capable fighter. It is a more worthy investment compared to upgrading the old Mirage-2000s. I think the price for the upgrades is kinda inflated

Tried to post it yesterday, but the site still has problems from time to time, but let me give you some points just regarding the costs, which will make you understand that the Mig could never be a good alternative to this upgrade.

IN pays a system price of $46 millions per Mig 29K, that don't havs AESA radar, or TVC features and is more comparable to the Mig 29 SMT capabilities. The naval version is always a bit costlier than for the air force, so the latter should cost around $40 millions each. The Mig 35 instead, would come at least at $55 to 60 millions each fighter per unit, so no matter which version we take, the unit cost is not cheaper at all.
But there is even more, because the Mig is a twin engine fighter, while the Mirage 2000 is a single engine fighter and we all know that Russian engines are consuming more fuel, has a lower life and requires more maintenance than western counterparts, which translates into higher operational costs over the next 15 years (the time frame this upgrade is planed for).
We also know that the after sale support and especially the quality of spares for Mig fighters and the RD 33 engine is very problematic, which often results into higher costs as well, that's why IAF now even starts to look for western supplieres.
So all in all, although the Mirage upgrade looks expensive in paper (depends on what exactly we get in return), there is no real alternative for it, because buying new fighters is even more expensive, requires more time and except the case that we take the MMRCA winner, would add another type of fighter for up to 40 years to the IAF fleet.
All these are points that IAF don't want and why they insist on this upgrade, or why they prefered Mirage 2000-5 over Mig 29 SMT in the past, or EF and Rafale over Mig 35 today. Just like the air chief stated, a low unit cost alone is not imortant, but low life cycle costs, good quality of weapons and spares, good after sale support, or good future potential and as simple as it is, the Mig 35 can't offer these things!

 

[DacterSaab]

or why they prefered Mirage 2000-5 over Mig 29 SMT in the past, or EF and Rafale over Mig 35 today.

When did IAF prefer Mirage 2000-5 over Mig 29 SMT?

 

[sancho]

When did IAF prefer Mirage 2000-5 over Mig 29 SMT?

In the initial MRCA competition, where the contenders were Mirage 2000-5, Mig 29 SMT, F16 Block 52 and Gripen C/D. The Mirage and the Mig were the types that had the most ease for fast induction, but for the points I stated, the overdependence of IAF on Russian fighters and the very good experience with the French fighters in Kargil war they prefered the Mirage.

 

[tvsram1992]

In the initial MRCA competition, where the contenders were Mirage 2000-5, Mig 29 SMT, F16 Block 52 and Gripen C/D. The Mirage and the Mig were the types that had the most ease for fast induction, but for the points I stated, the overdependence of IAF on Russian fighters and the very good experience with the French fighters in Kargil war they prefered the Mirage.

How can u say IAF preferred Mirage2000-5 over Mig29SMT?Any link?

French sacrificed Mirage for Rafale and now they are getting benifit.

 

[DacterSaab]

In the initial MRCA competition, where the contenders were Mirage 2000-5, Mig 29 SMT, F16 Block 52 and Gripen C/D. The Mirage and the Mig were the types that had the most ease for fast induction, but for the points I stated, the overdependence of IAF on Russian fighters and the very good experience with the French fighters in Kargil war they prefered the Mirage.

Yes that's true but the MMRCA (MRCA as it was known then) had been designed because the IAF was looking for a something that was not Russian. If we wanted Mig-35 we could get it just like that (as it is an upgrade of Mig-29 I won't be surprised if we still get them as upgrades)

It was only after the Mig-35 prototype launch at Aero India did we realize how serious the Russians were about selling us the plane. And soon after the FGFA JV became official. Bet the Russians were told in advance they won't succeed.

Also the reason Mirage wouldn't succeed in MMRCA is because we got Tejas which is very close to the Mirage.

 

[luckyyy]

When did IAF prefer Mirage 2000-5 over Mig 29 SMT?

you are reply to a member known to make such claims....

 

[luckyyy]

Well, according to some people, the IAF didn't want too many Russian birds on their fleet.

If I am not mistaken, the MIG-35 has 9 hardpoints in total. Whereas the Rafale and EFT have 13. The Armée de l'Air version of Rafale has 14 hardpoints in total. Also, the Rafale is capable of carrying a nuclear warhead.

Maybe that's why they eliminated the MIG-35 during MMRCA.

I could be wrong

The MIG-35 is a very capable fighter. It is a more worthy investment compared to upgrading the old Mirage-2000s. I think the price for the upgrades is kinda inflated

even in past IAF try to drift towards Europe , in 1978s they bought Jaguar after a long evaluation process rejecting Dassault Mirage F1 and the Saab Viggen in a $1bn deal that time..
but then , in 1980 ,the moment US decided to give F-16 to pakistan , there was a total caose in IAF and have to rush towards russia to buy the mig-29 even it was in development phase that time ...
that's the cradibilioty and vision of IAF anf it's evaluation process !!