Saudi Arabia expresses interest in JF-17 co-production with Pakistan.

[Yzd Khalifa]

Firstly it's not Pakistan's project- it is China's.

Well at this point then the Tejas should have been seen as a Franco-American-Israeli-Indo project. The Thunder is a Pakistani project and that's that.

I can see the Saudis being somewhat interested in this as they are trying very hard to build up their own defence industrial manufacturing base

This has nothing to do with the sake of enhancing or developing our military machine solely. If this deal is being sealed, which I hope, then KSA will empower its self-defensive capabilities. You may refer to the projects I attached here:

Saudi's AEC to Develop F-15SA Sub-systems and AMRAAMs

Al-Salam Aerospace Industries Begin F-15SA wings production

Saudi Arabia unveils locally developed Gyro-Stablization system

Saudi PSATRI Inaugurates new Research Centers

Saker Family of Saudi UAVs

Saudi Arabia plans 1000 Military industry projects

Saudi Arabia Building a City Dedicated to Military Industry

Saudi Made Drone Showcased

3 Saudi Military UAVs Unveiled

UAE unveils AL-TARIQ Precision Guided Bombs Kit

AEC finishes upgrading all Tornado jets with indigenous systems

Sabic to build carbon fiber plant in Kingdom

Saudi Arabia, S.A Launch Defense Radars, Electronics Research Program

Saudi Advanced Electronics Company (The upcoming Defense Giant)

Saudi Arabia to Manufacture F-15SA Wings Locally

BAE Systems Saudi Arabia in ToT contract with Al-Salam and AEC

Saudi PanNesma signs JV with Rayethon

PSATRI signs ToT agreement with Italian PSA

UAE working on a 500Kg and 1000Kg variant of the Ybhon Xtreme JDAM

Joint UAE-Ukranian Helicopter project QUEST

Yabhon Xtreme. The UAE JDAM.

Middle East Propulsion Company (MEPC)

MADE IN UAE

However I just don't see the Thunder project being all that attractive to them

How do you know that the project isn't attractive to them? Do you know in which role will KSA be going to use it? Maybe this could be a replacement for our aging advance trainer Aircrafts.

Firstly they have 0 need for the Thunder and they are already spending a lot in other areas related to the EFT

Unless you know for what purpose are they going to use the Thunders, we can't be sure about what they need.

lastly what kind of relations do the Saudis have with the Chinese?

Considering the fact that we did procure many Chinese defense equipments in the past, I don't see any a problem which may raise concern to the Chinese or the Pakistanis.

And considering the fact that we signed aplenty of defense agreements among others with both countries, I don't see any problem in this deal.

Not to mention the $70 billions trade-volume between China and KSA.

lastly what kind of relations do the Saudis have with the Chinese.

Based on my first-hand experience on the ground, I see our relations with them being more than excellent.

Would the Chinese even want the Saudis involved? The Chinese will be the ones calling the shots after all- they have the final say.

They just offered an anti-aircraft missile system to KSA last year, and much more. With the good relations we enjoy with Pakistan, China, I guess the deal could see the light sooner than what others might expect.

They hardly need their money and the Saudis bring almost NOTHING to the project from a knowledge point of view.

Money isn't everything in politics. If money could have been a game-changer card, It would have abort the protest in Ukraine, the calls to join the EU, or it could have expanded Iran's influence on Egypt with the $16 billion dollars package they offered to the MB prior to the second revolt.

Speaking of scientific knowledge point of view, I don't think that China or Pakistan can make much more scientific in this. What they simply can do is to reinforce the JF-17 Block 1 into a much more advanced system or they could make an upgrade configurations that's all.

As for KSA, I think it is safe to say that neither China or Pakistan would be interested in the configurations we could make in this jet if we got it. But to us, we could do much much more, you may refer to the links which I attached earlier in this post, again. The new module of the F-15SA has lots of indigenous - Saudi - technology but sadly not much on the Typhoon

All in all I am more than willing to state for the record that nothing will come of this.

No one says that such deal is being stroke as of right now. At the same time we can't be sure that nothing will come into this or that. We simply are looking for a healthy constructive discussion, that's all.

There always seems to be a lot of speculation around the Thunder that turns to naught after a while- how many nations have been reported to be "seriously' interested in the Thunder now? And how many export orders? I'm not sure if it is just spin or someone is intentionally making things up but it makes one very cynical about anything that is reported on the Thunder from this point of view

I don't think that the Pakistanis are dying for getting their jet sold here and there. As I stated earlier, nothing being cynical in this. We only want a healthy debate that's all.


Aside, just for the record, most of our military projects with Pakistan as well as China, are being sealed while the radar is being turned off.

Firstly it's not Pakistan's project- it is China's.

I can see the Saudis being somewhat interested in this as they are trying very hard to build up their own defence industrial manufacturing base. However I just don't see the Thunder project being all that attractive to them. Firstly they have 0 need for the Thunder and they are already spending a lot in other areas related to the EFT and lastly what kind of relations do the Saudis have with the Chinese? Would the Chinese even want the Saudis involved? The Chinese will be the ones calling the shots after all- they have the final say. They hardly need their money and the Saudis bring almost NOTHING to the project from a knowledge point of view.


All in all I am more than willing to state for the record that nothing will come of this.



There always seems to be a lot of speculation around the Thunder that turns to naught after a while- how many nations have been reported to be "seriously' interested in the Thunder now? And how many export orders? I'm not sure if it is just spin or someone is intentionally making things up but it makes one very cynical about anything that is reported on the Thunder from this point of view.

 

[Bilal.]

@Yzd Khalifa, see bro, this swarm of butthurt haters is what I was talking about.

 

[Yzd Khalifa]

@Yzd Khalifa, see bro, this swarm of butthurt haters is what I was talking about.

Let them.

I know where is that pouring from.

 

[Basel]

Without link rumor and so much
Any country which is not cash starved will go for the best in the world and look for quality.
I don't think Saudis are cash starved or without any option neither the jf 17 is best in the world.

Basically they are doing very clever thing if they are going for TOT for JF-17, what people have forgotten is that initially PAF wanted French avionics and even engine but they failed to secure it due to financial & political issues, but Saudis don't have these issues and they could have a plane which they could evolve and customize as per their needs, they can get TOT for avionics, engine & maybe composites from west to take this bird to level of F-16 block-60 which they wanted but refused, with JF-17 they can have weapons systems available which west will not sell them that easily i.e. Raad, MUPSOW, H-2, H-4, CM-400AKG with option to integrate western systems.

If KSA went for JF-17s it may be totally different variant then Block-i & II as they can afford high end stuff, it could be JF-17SA.

This type of variant if develop will also be very useful for PAF and they may love to induct it.

 

[Armstrong]

More F-16's ......What we need is a High-low mix of fighters and the JF-17 with ToT and TopT provides that, and is a very capable fighter for its price tag.

You're not gonna get any Jf-17s from me !

Unless of course you promise a yearly supply of Ful Medames & Koshari as payment ?

 

[Luftwaffe]

Basically they are doing very clever thing if they are going for TOT for JF-17, what people have forgotten is that initially PAF wanted French avionics and even engine but they failed to secure it due to financial & political issues, but Saudis don't have these issues and they could have a plane which they could evolve and customize as per their needs, they can get TOT for avionics, engine & maybe composites from west to take this bird to level of F-16 block-60 which they wanted but refused, with JF-17 they can have weapons systems available which west will not sell them that easily i.e. Raad, MUPSOW, H-2, H-4, CM-400AKG with option to integrate western systems.

If KSA went for JF-17s it may be totally different variant then Block-i & II as they can afford high end stuff, it could be JF-17SA.

I think that would be bad to hand over Thunder only to be completely loaded by french avionics/engines, this in itself is insult to the project, is Pakistan that low to just sell off airframes does it mean the buyer would have no faith in weapons/systems of FC-1/JF-17s. TOT have some clauses as well. There is no need for "west composites" Chinese are capable in that field. How will west allow RSAF to integrate Pak/Chinese weapons with a western radar/systems. The point of this project is to be not dependent on west, RSAF would have to show faith in Chinese/Pak weapons/systems other wise selling an airframe is pointless. The crux Pak is not waiting on someone to play with experiment their variant of Thunder and that Pak to induct that variant, PAF has its focus already on what sort of variants and requirements are needed.

 

[Frogman]

You're not gonna get any Jf-17s from me !

Unless of course you promise a yearly supply of Ful Medames & Koshari as payment ?

Itfadel 3andina in Cairo where you can have all the ful and koshari you want, my mother may even throw in some molikhiya

Although everything has a price, 100 Block 2's may suffice as payment

 

[Basel]

I think that would be bad to hand over Thunder only to be completely loaded by french avionics/engines, this in itself is insult to the project, is Pakistan that low to just sell off airframes does it mean the buyer would have no faith in weapons/systems of FC-1/JF-17s. TOT have some clauses as well. There is no need for "west composites" Chinese are capable in that field. How will west allow RSAF to integrate Pak/Chinese weapons with a western radar/systems. The point of this project is to be not dependent on west, RSAF would have to show faith in Chinese/Pak weapons/systems other wise selling an airframe is pointless. The crux Pak is not waiting on someone to play with experiment their variant of Thunder and that Pak to induct that variant, PAF has its focus already on what sort of variants and requirements are needed.

KSA & Pakistan can co-delvelop new variant of JF-17s which could have at least western AESA which can be developed specially for JF-17 as per requirement, KSA can get TOT of these from EU countries from they purchased EFTs, French are out of the picture, there are companies in west which still work with Pakistan and had transfer tech like FALCO UAV, Grifo M radar in past and they even offered SELEX Vixen AESA radar for JF-17s previously, those companies will be happy to come on board and provide tech as now Pakistan may have a wealth ally to finance them. The issue will be engine as RD93 will not be a great option for an advance variant and ws-10 needs to fill it or some western engine need to be TOT some how.

 

[Luftwaffe]

KSA & Pakistan can co-delvelop new variant of JF-17s which could have at least western AESA which can be developed specially for JF-17 as per requirement, KSA can get TOT of these from EU countries from they purchased EFTs, French are out of the picture, there are companies in west which still work with Pakistan and had transfer tech like FALCO UAV, Grifo M radar in past and they even offered SELEX Vixen AESA radar for JF-17s previously, those companies will be happy to come on board and provide tech as now Pakistan may have a wealth ally to finance them. The issue will be engine as RD93 will not be a great option for an advance variant and ws-10 needs to fill it or some western engine need to be TOT some how.

I told you it is pointless, the project is meant to be not dependent on west, There are always clauses in TOT. We want to advertise our product with everything developed in Pak/China as originally envisioned project if the entire program gets western radars/systems/weapons that i am sorry it is no longer a good project we failed then, you need to show RSAF that SD-10/A/B/C, Pods other systems are as good as west you have you got to improve it that is where cash comes JV comes, what you are saying is someone buys airframe and gets western stuff put it into Thunder and walah you got a new variant atleast i find it insulting for such a project.

 

[Basel]

I told you it is pointless, the project is meant to be not dependent on west, There are always clauses in TOT. We want to advertise our product with everything developed in Pak/China an original envisioned project if the entire program gets western radars/systems/weapons that i am sorry it is no longer a good project we failed then, you need to show RSAF that SD-10/A/B/C, Pods other systems are as good as west have you got to improve it that is where cash comes JV comes, what you are saying is someone buys airframe and gets western stuff put it into Thunder and walah you got a new variant atleast i find it insulting for such a project.

I can understand what you are talking, you are talking the other approach of joint development in which Saudi funds can made available Advance Chinese tech for JF-17s on priority like their AESA radar, WS series engine, METEOR equivalent air to air missile etc.

 

[Luftwaffe]

I can understand what you are talking, you are talking the other approach of joint development in which Saudi funds can made available Advance Chinese tech for JF-17s on priority like their AESA radar, WS series engine, METEOR equivalent air to air missile etc.

That should be the priority going to west for everything means the $20-25m JFT would go to $50m.

 

[Salahuddin_ayyubi]

Just in case if negotiations are falling apart, India has TEJAS on the plate for you...

Egypt is not interested in TEJAS. Infect no one is interested in TEJAS

 

[Salahuddin_ayyubi]

I wasn't questioning whether we were in negotiations with Pakistan and China for the JF-17 with TOT, I was questioning your statement about negotiations falling through. If you can share with me/us the source, that would be great.

My brother i see in a news that there is a deadlock between both countries on TOT, Don't know further they agreed on TOT or not. Yet no big news heard regarding TOT to Egypt.

 

[Superboy]

Can EJ200 be retrofitted in JF-17?

 

[slapshot]

We are yet to start the sales pitch...wait for an year you will see...

IAF is waiting for it since three decades