Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Peace Sells no one buying]

Hello all. I've been thoroughly enjoying this discussion. I do have some concerns though . . . none bigger than the issue that this contract may, inevitably, be given to the company that decides to give the best 'incentive' package. Ideally the best plane for the job would win. Right? I don't think this is going to happen. Of course, another issue needs to be dealt with. Specifically that significant downsides exist with taking ANY of the planes.

It's impressive, generous even, that a large MNC (Multinational Corporation) like Boeing would even consider opening up a plant in India. (within the context of an incentive package -- I am well aware of the thousands of MNC's that already exist and thrive in India. And India should rightfully be proud of her achievements) This would, no doubt, create jobs and offer an implicit degree of self-determination to India for this project. The downside would be the fact that Boeing is an American company -- and at the whims of American policy. While relations between the two nations have improved leaps and bounds since the 1970s and the 1990s (tests), I remain wary.

As has been mentioned here earlier, the US may be able to break down the chain of support and advice on these planes at any point. (There are a lot of Iranian F-14's out there that could use some shop time, for example) Furthermore, the ToT on some systems is still pending approval from the bureaucracy inherent in their (I guess, technically "my") legal system. These are variables that I would not bank on, nor should India tender a $$$ multi-billion dollar contract to without first ironing out these details.

Essentially, the American planes that India is being sold may be items the sellers can't guarantee. (kid next door is selling you his dad's TV, you agree to it, but then after you give the money his dad says that we don't agree to give you the TV) It's not that simple, but it's still not receiving all that was promised.

India's military has been attempting to be indigenous for some time now, giving control to another nation (in this case, USA) on such a big ticket item would be an abject step in the wrong direction.

Now, I've dedicated a lot of time talking about the potential problems with an American offer -- but each offer is filled with pluses and minuses as well.

For example, let's look at the mythical offer of Su-35's. Even the idea of receiving Su-35 MKI's (two seats, canards, thrust vectoring, allowed to put in tech from other nations, etc), over the standard Su-30's, would perhaps not be enough. Over the last few years India has pumped much capital into the Russian economy -- and the deals continue to become even more lopsided. (Look at the purchase of the Russian carrier) The rupee goes far in Russia, but apparently not as far as it should. Furthermore, much of India's armed forces is already very Russian. (Arjun tank problems led to buying Russian tanks, etc) Anchoring India to Russia could be a negative in the long run.

I could go on and on about each offer, but I will stop here for now.

Thank you all, and hopefully this post was of some value.

ps. I do not know who will win, nor do I have a favorite. I need to know more of how these planes fare in the trials before I can develop stronger feelings about them.

 

[sancho]

Hello all. I've been thoroughly enjoying this discussion. I do have some concerns though . . . none bigger than the issue that this contract may, inevitably, be given to the company that decides to give the best 'incentive' package. Ideally the best plane for the job would win. Right? I don't think this is going to happen....

MMRCA is too big to find a winner only by seeing it from a single point of view. The IAF might want the best fighter that suits it's present fleet, but the MoD of course will try to get some additional advantages like techs for LCA, or fighters for IN. GoI instead will try to get political advantages in terms of stratigic partnerships, closer ties in war on terror, or an UNC seat and not to forget that there will be an economical side in that competition too. Many Indian companies hopes for jv with foreign counter parts and such a competition with a high offset clause, is of course important for them too.
It will be the package that will win and not a single advantage, with imo advantages for US in the political and economical field and benefits for Rafale and EF from IAF/MoD point of view, because Europe can simply offer way more ToT and co-developments.

My feeling of Rafale winning MMRCA gets stronger and stronger after new interests of a Kaveri-Snecma engine development and the great results of Rafale in UAE simulations.

 

[RPK]

Upgraded Eurofighter offered to Indian Air Force

New Delhi, Jan 4 (IANS) European aerospace conglomerate EADS, the manufacturer of the Eurofighter Typhoon, has aggressively pushed for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 combat jets by offering the plane with a thrust vector upgrade that will considerably improve its operational capabilities.
The upgrade will pay for itself through life cycle cost reductions, an EADS statement said Monday.

Equipping the twin-engine Typhoon’s EJ200s with thrust vectoring nozzles (TVNs) could reduce fuel burn on a typical mission by up to 5 percent while increasing available thrust in supersonic cruise mode by up to 7 percent, the statement added.

Thrust vectoring would “improve agility, survivability, manoeuvrability and the aircraft’s ability to carry an asymmetric weapons load. It also reduces trim drag and therefore, fuel consumption”, the statement pointed out.

The Eurofighter Typhoon is one of the six jets in contention for the IAF order, which could eventually rise to some 200 planes. The flight trials of the six aircraft are currently underway in India and are set to conclude later this month after which, another set of trials will be conducted in the country of manufacture.

Thereafter, the IAF will shortlist two or three aircraft before homing in on the final choice.

The first 18 aircraft will be bought in a flyaway condition and the remaining will be manufactured in India through the transfer of technology route by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, the Lockheed Martin F-16I Super Viper (both from the US), the French Rafale, the Swedish Gripen and the Russian MiG-35 are the other aircraft in the fray.

According to the EADS statement, the biggest operational benefit of thrust vectoring “is the speed that it gives in super cruise mode, because obviously the pilots are very keen on low observability at high speed”.

“Seven to eight percent more thrust in super cruise mode is quite a remarkable achievement and it adds to the operators’ delight. This would give the aircraft an edge over its rivals in combat as well as in getaway situations,” the statement added.

It also pointed out that while thrust vectoring promises operational advantages, “one has to look at life cycle costs as well. The importance is that the manufacturers should bring about both thrust increase and low life cycle costs”.

Read more: Upgraded Eurofighter offered to Indian Air Force

 

[sudhir007]

U.S. fighter bids for India hit tech-transfer snag

U.S. fighter bids for India hit tech-transfer snag | Reuters

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A split in the Pentagon over how much cutting-edge technology to share with India is complicating bids by Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) and Boeing Co (BA.N) for a potential $10 billion fighter jet contract.

At issue, among other things, is advanced radar know-how India wants as part of any deal for the 126 new fighter jets it plans to buy from one of six global aerospace powerhouses, say current and former Pentagon officials.

Detailed offers from all bidders are due to be submitted to the Indian defense ministry by March 3.

The contenders come from Russia, Europe and the United States. If the deal goes to Americans, it would crown a post-Cold War trend toward tighter U.S.-Indian security ties, a potential counterweight to China's growing might.

Lockheed Martin and Boeing -- the Pentagon's No. 1 and No. 2 suppliers by sales -- were invited by India for the first time to bid to supply fighters.

Lockheed Martin is proposing a version of its widely sold F-16 Fighting Falcon but has not made public any detail of which radar it will offer.

Boeing has said it is pursuing U.S. government approval to sell its F/A-18 Super Hornet "Block 2" strike attack aircraft, used by the U.S. Navy and Australia. It is equipped with what Boeing has called "ground-breaking" Raytheon Co (RTN.N) APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar.

Also in the race: Russia's MiG 35, France's Dassault Rafale, Sweden's Saab AB (SAABb.ST) JAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon, made by a consortium of British, German, Italian and Spanish companies.

"There's advocates and non-advocates" of meeting India's hopes for maximum radar technology-transfer and co-production, said a senior U.S. Air Force official, who declined to be named.

Asked about deliberations on licensing the so-called AESA radars for export to India, U.S. Navy Secretary Donald Winter told the Reuters Aerospace and Defense Summit: "I know that that's under consideration."

"There's a very well detailed process that is followed by the department (of defense) that I'm not expert on, and I would defer to those who are," Winter said on Wednesday.

The trade-offs involved in U.S. reviews are complex. They include business pressure to make Lockheed and Boeing as competitive as possible while protecting a key U.S. war fighting technology.

"The Indians want as much co-production and as much technology transfer as they can get," said retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Jeffrey Kohler, who stepped down in August as the Pentagon's top arms-sale official. "The U.S. government has to decide how far it will go toward meeting India's requests."

"I think this a very critical decision that needs the attention of top government officials," said Kohler, now an unpaid advisor to the private U.S.-India Business Council.

Ron Somers, president of the council that represents 275 of the biggest U.S. companies investing in India, referred to India's fighter market as "a tremendous opportunity for U.S. companies that should not be missed."

"We hope the U.S. government will get its act together," Somers said by telephone. "Time is of the essence if we hope to compete with foreign companies for this hugely important deal."

Lockheed Martin and Boeing declined to comment on the U.S. government's delay in approving their India packages, as did the Indian embassy in Washington.

Bob Gower, vice president of Boeing's F/A-18 program, said Boeing was confident the U.S. government ultimately will clear release of the APG-79 radar.

"The F/A-18 has an advantage in that we are the only airplane in the competition with a fielded production AESA radar," Gower said in a written response last month to questions from Reuters. "I like our competitive position on the AESA radar."

AESA presents many military advantages, boosting pilots awareness of any threats, according to William Ostrove, a radar market analyst at Forecast International, an aerospace consultancy in Newton, Connecticut.

"The United States has the most advanced AESA technology in the world," he said. "No other country currently has an AESA radar in production."

The United States already has sent AESA technology to Singapore and the United Arab Emirates, but they did not demand as much access to the underlying know-how as India has done, Ostrove said.

Washington might resolve its AESA-related dilemma by clearing a "dumbed down" version, he said. Substituting a less powerful processor, for instance, would make it less capable than one now flown by U.S. Navy F/A-18E/F Super Hornet pilots.

"This would allow the Indians to build the radar themselves while preventing the most advanced American technology from leaving the country," Ostrove said.

As part of a strategic initiative designed to cement new

security ties, President Bush in March 2005 gave Boeing and Lockheed the nod to sell advanced fighters to India.

 

[sancho]

The United States already has sent AESA technology to Singapore and the United Arab Emirates, but they did not demand as much access to the underlying know-how as India has done, Ostrove said.

Washington might resolve its AESA-related dilemma by clearing a "dumbed down" version, he said. Substituting a less powerful processor, for instance, would make it less capable than one now flown by U.S. Navy F/A-18E/F Super Hornet pilots.

"This would allow the Indians to build the radar themselves while preventing the most advanced American technology from leaving the country," Ostrove said.

So the question will be, how capable will be this "dumbed down" US AESA, compared to Russian and European AESA radars, that won't be so limited?

 

[Dark Angel]

Well i say hell no these "World Saver" thinking retards (US)
when u have the funds available show them their right place we have most advanced opt like EF,Rafale ect why even take this risk and repent in the future like our neighbouring bros

 

[Chanakyaa]

Yesterday I had a chat with my friend again whose father is involved in the Evaluations.
He states that SH18 is almost confirm, but The order my be split to accommodate a few Rafales.

EF was the best or Even Rafales, had the cost been lower.

Lets wait n watch.

 

[Hulk]

So the question will be, how capable will be this "dumbed down" US AESA, compared to Russian and European AESA radars, that won't be so limited?

I think we should do this.
Select F18 and get the latest ASEA radar for it.
If they cannot give us TOT for ASEA completly then take TOT on dumbed down ASEA if that is worth it and try develop over it.
Delink both.

 

[gogbot]

I think we should do this.
Select F18 and get the latest ASEA radar for it.
If they cannot give us TOT for ASEA completly then take TOT on dumbed down ASEA if that is worth it and try develop over it.
Delink both.

The Americans will never give us enough ToT to develop anything.

We are better of Partnering with Europeans. at least they give us JV options.

The only jet worth buying from America is the F-35, Even then only if we get the ability to service the craft yourself. and have a reliable source of Spares.

 

[Hulk]

The Americans will never give us enough ToT to develop anything.

We are better of Partnering with Europeans. at least they give us JV options.

The only jet worth buying from America is the F-35, Even then only if we get the ability to service the craft yourself. and have a reliable source of Spares.

Get ready.
F18 is going to win MRCA for sure 100%. Start thinking in that line.
F18 is the only one having actiev ASEA radar.

 

[gogbot]

Get ready.
F18 is going to win MRCA for sure 100%. Start thinking in that line.
F18 is the only one having actiev ASEA radar.

Well then we shouldn't expect any gaming changing tech from the US.

Apart from the Ability to produce the F-18's in India. which i suppose adds to the development expertise a little.

Honestly play hardball with the Americans make them think we are going Europe to squeeze out a Little more tech

 

[Kinshuk]

Well then we shouldn't expect any gaming changing tech from the US.

Apart from the Ability to produce the F-18's in India. which i suppose adds to the development expertise a little.

Honestly play hardball with the Americans make them think we are going Europe to squeeze out a Little more tech

I have a gut feeling that GOI will split the order. Cost? That doesn't matter to them, it is just to make a fool out of Indian citizen.

Rafale and F 18 SH is going to be selected. They want US any how and this is one of the opportunities for them to tap. Though i don't like States much, Even if we get 60 70 Rafale and 100 SH, i don't care, At least I am satisfied. SH may be not master of none, but it is jack of all. So I am satified. sorry but I was born selfish.

 

[jha]

i would like to see the same but rafale replaced by eurofighter with aesa...

 

[Hulk]

Well then we shouldn't expect any gaming changing tech from the US.

Apart from the Ability to produce the F-18's in India. which i suppose adds to the development expertise a little.

Honestly play hardball with the Americans make them think we are going Europe to squeeze out a Little more tech

Dude fyi, Boeing has offered a lot to India, not everything is in open. do not underestimate Indians when it comes to bargain.

In fact Boeing is increasing its presence in India and will add to some knowledge transfer to Indians.

We are not getting a bad deal trust me.

 

[Kinshuk]

i would like to see the same but rafale replaced by eurofighter with aesa...

Eurofighter?

What do you like about it? lets get personal for sometime. It doesn't even have AESA and not sure when they are going to make it operational. Sold so many though not yet qualified for Ground attack. WTF

Where are they going with it? Rafale had operational AESA during trials when it was sent to India.