Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Quwa]

PAF is just short on money for major acquisitions. This is going to be a problem for as long as we let clowns such as Nawaz Sharif manage our economy.

 

[MastanKhan]

I tatally agree . In past 14 years, what we have got is meaningless. What original order was , in 2005_6, 75 block52' then reduced to 55 and then only 36 and then. Just 18. It was cancelled by Musharraf as he wanted to tell the world that we want to spend money on victems of earthquake.and then ppl saw many new faces getting billionaire...At that time, the only question asked by Lockheed was , if pakistan can pay for 75 birds?? Now they are not providing even secondhand. At that time, requirement was to offset su30. What to talk about Rafale?? And Chinese aircrafts are always under development when we need.. an example is j10. Since 2009, PAF is in need of it, and now its a failure of reverse engineering....I,m sure j31 will also be legging behind

Hi,

It was actually Paf that had assessed that the threat of war with india is minimal and there was no need for a high performance fighter aircraft----so they decided to go with their own research and a lightweight fighter the JF 17.

 

[ConcealCarry]

So you are a fan of economy management skills of Zardari and Gilani?

PAF is just short on money for major acquisitions. This is going to be a problem for as long as we let clowns such as Nawaz Sharif manage our economy.

 

[Asli Lahori1]

Mr.10% reportedly was a big reason in the deal going down.

Defense Minister of that time was asking Million dollar a piece for releasing the funds.

Hi,

It was actually Paf that had assessed that the threat of war with india is minimal and there was no need for a high performance fighter aircraft----so they decided to go with their own research and a lightweight fighter the JF 17.

The worst decision PAF has ever made. Total waste of money on Jf-17. May be the just needed JF-17 to fight in FATA and North Waziristan .

 

[MastanKhan]

Defense Minister of that time was asking Million dollar a piece for releasing the funds.


The worst decision PAF has ever made. Total waste of money on Jf-17. May be the just needed JF-17 to fight in FATA and North Waziristan .

Sir,

You just created a " horde " of enemies on this board---. Welcome to the club.

 

[Asli Lahori1]

Sir,

You just created a " horde " of enemies on this board---. Welcome to the club.

Thanks for welcoming me. Realty is realty. JF-17 is nothing but a refurbished Mig 21. Yeah yeah it has DSI but it is useless unless; unless somehow PAF be able to add an additional power-plant, thus increasing the range to at least 3000 miles, add three or four more hard-points AESA etc but I guess that would be a lot of trouble so why the F@#k they are not going for J11D?

 

[ConcealCarry]

You are mistaken, it's a wolf under sheep's skin

Sir,

You just created a " horde " of enemies on this board---. Welcome to the club.

 

[Quwa]

So you are a fan of economy management skills of Zardari and Gilani?

How does not wanting Sharif suddenly translate into wanting Zardari and Gilani? I don't want any of these clowns in charge of the economy. I'd rather hire a real clown to do it over these people. Heck, I'll hire a gorilla with an adopted 25 year old mentally challenged blind man with a pet weasel suffering from an amputated leg, to mange our economy.

Pakistanis need to make Pakistan incredibly hostile for the politicians, as it is the politicians in general who mis-manage the economic portfolio. We need to hold the security establishment to account as well, ideally with a drawn knife, so that these bloody suits and stars learn to *serve* the quam, not take us for a ride or two.

 

[Viper0011.]

PAF is just short on money for major acquisitions. This is going to be a problem for as long as we let clowns such as Nawaz Sharif manage our economy.

That's an interesting post....so the guy who brought your country back from guaranteed bankruptcy.....is "miss-managing" your economy? Your military's senior ranking officers have total trust in this guy's ability to create a new, financially prosperous Pakistan....why are your views so different?

Also, back in 2012, if Pakistan had hit the bankruptcy (as planned by the IMF, WB,etc), I hope you know that you won't get credit, or have access to any assets, to buy Peanuts, let alone Oil, Gas, Jets, Tanks, Trade and all....no one would extend a dollar to a bankrupt nation (like Pakistan) due to various "other" factors, including the Indian lobby factor and the hatred Mushy left in US's law makers hearts and mind, due to double crossing and OBL related issues. So this would result in a breakup of Pakistan.

You wouldn't be able to get spares, service weapons, buy cheap, simple cleaning sprays, let alone weapons systems worth many millions. So a military without any budget or salaries or new weapons would somehow use supermen to run a war in FATA (costing many billions), and other Ops, and deal with a massive and may be a final Indian invasion (under the bankruptcy scenario)????

So at the least appreciate the mess this guy's team avoided for Pakistan. Its amazing how little people know about the serious issues Pakistan was going through, but everyone's quick to issue a Fatwa like opinion just out of personal bias.

 

[Viper0011.]

Defense Minister of that time was asking Million dollar a piece for releasing the funds.

The worst decision PAF has ever made. Total waste of money on Jf-17. May be the just needed JF-17 to fight in FATA and North Waziristan .

1: Everyone in the history of Pakistan, involved in the defense deals, made millions. Take Mushy for example, how does his son own over $ 25 millions of secondary /joint hold owned real estate in the US? Similarly, Mushy has a bunch of other properties and business partnerships in the UK and even in Pakistan. Majority of which, yo guessed it, are with Ex-Generals or Senior Officers he dealt with during these defense deals. So there is no holly cow in these deals. In fact, this would be true for India, China and every other country too.

2: JFT isn't a "money wasted", when it replaces the 250-300 Mirages, and F-7's its supposed to, you brought 60% of the PAF from obsolete second generation to the 4th with just 40% of the money compared to what would it really cost to do so. Plus, you by passed many foreign countries and you'll save billions in ongoing maintenance and expense.

3: Remember, the JFT is not a -16 block 52 comparison. It's much stronger and capable than what its replacing. But you do need jets like the -16 block 52 and / or J-10C's or J-11's in decent numbers. And THEN add the J-31 for 5th gen. But for now, let's focus on conventional 4th -4.5th gen needs. J-10C has matured enough to be similar to Rafale, specially with the AESA. J-11D is also a great option.

4: Funding situation, sooner or later, the FATA ops will stop. When that happens, a few billions being spent on there, will become available for other purposes. Plus, various economy and infrastructure related projects are near completion. One of the reasons that PAF is silent is due to the fact of JFT block III being a rename for a potential J-10C type of a plane where you are reusing what's already built and tested for years. So that would be real quick adoption. At this time, the real major issue is to finish infrastructure projects, start producing enough electricity, turn the keys on phase I of the CPEC and let the revenue flow. The J-10C orders can take any time, but if the PAF has her eyes on a better Western, Russian or a Chinese platform, it'll be 2018 before they can reassess the economic situation and hash-out a good few billions!!

The PAF should get used -16's in the meantime. But on the JFT, I think they should continue with Block II for now, but reconfigure a plant for J-10C type production under Block III. It'll be quicker to get those jets.

Pakistanis need to make Pakistan incredibly hostile for the politicians, as it is the politicians in general who mis-manage the economic portfolio. We need to hold the security establishment to account as well, ideally with a drawn knife, so that these bloody suits and stars learn to *serve* the quam, not take us for a ride or two.

When did they approve your asylum application in Canada!!! It doesn't look like you've learned anything from this country or her system. Enjoying democracy in Pakistan and suggesting that they bag the system in Pakistan and establishment should come out with a "draw knife" . Canadian peaceful democratic system didn't teach you jack it seemed like!!

Name a general, and allow me to tell you how they miss-managed the Pakistani system and the economy!! NS or other politicians didn't rule Pakistan for 60 years out of the 70 it existed for, the military did. And if you don't plan for the future of a country with growing population, decades in advance, you end up with today's Pakistan. Where its easy to blame the guy in the seat today and ignore the screw-ups of 6 decades by others!!

 

[Paksanity]

Name a general, and allow me to tell you how they miss-managed the Pakistani system and the economy!!

Air Marshal Nur Khan!

Now please tell us how he mismanaged the Pakistani system or failed to perform with honesty and integrity. I'm all ears.

 

[alimobin memon]

1: Everyone in the history of Pakistan, involved in the defense deals, made millions. Take Mushy for example, how does his son own over $ 25 millions of secondary /joint hold owned real estate in the US? Similarly, Mushy has a bunch of other properties and business partnerships in the UK and even in Pakistan. Majority of which, yo guessed it, are with Ex-Generals or Senior Officers he dealt with during these defense deals. So there is no holly cow in these deals. In fact, this would be true for India, China and every other country too.

2: JFT isn't a "money wasted", when it replaces the 250-300 Mirages, and F-7's its supposed to, you brought 60% of the PAF from obsolete second generation to the 4th with just 40% of the money compared to what would it really cost to do so. Plus, you by passed many foreign countries and you'll save billions in ongoing maintenance and expense.

3: Remember, the JFT is not a -16 block 52 comparison. It's much stronger and capable than what its replacing. But you do need jets like the -16 block 52 and / or J-10C's or J-11's in decent numbers. And THEN add the J-31 for 5th gen. But for now, let's focus on conventional 4th -4.5th gen needs. J-10C has matured enough to be similar to Rafale, specially with the AESA. J-11D is also a great option.

4: Funding situation, sooner or later, the FATA ops will stop. When that happens, a few billions being spent on there, will become available for other purposes. Plus, various economy and infrastructure related projects are near completion. One of the reasons that PAF is silent is due to the fact of JFT block III being a rename for a potential J-10C type of a plane where you are reusing what's already built and tested for years. So that would be real quick adoption. At this time, the real major issue is to finish infrastructure projects, start producing enough electricity, turn the keys on phase I of the CPEC and let the revenue flow. The J-10C orders can take any time, but if the PAF has her eyes on a better Western, Russian or a Chinese platform, it'll be 2018 before they can reassess the economic situation and hash-out a good few billions!!

The PAF should get used -16's in the meantime. But on the JFT, I think they should continue with Block II for now, but reconfigure a plant for J-10C type production under Block III. It'll be quicker to get those jets.

Dude exactly what other pdf members shud think (Y)

 

[araz]

Defense Minister of that time was asking Million dollar a piece for releasing the funds.


The worst decision PAF has ever made. Total waste of money on Jf-17. May be the just needed JF-17 to fight in FATA and North Waziristan .

It was not the defence minister but Zardari himself who was demanding money and the cost was not a million dollars but 10 million$ per plane.
A

 

[Asli Lahori1]

It was not the defence minister but Zardari himself who was demanding money and the cost was not a million dollars but 10 million$ per plane.
A

Thanks for correction

 

[niaz]

Defense Minister of that time was asking Million dollar a piece for releasing the funds.


The worst decision PAF has ever made. Total waste of money on Jf-17. May be the just needed JF-17 to fight in FATA and North Waziristan .

It appears that everyone in the forum has their personal likes & dislikes. Some people dislike F-16 essentially because it is American & everything from US should be discarded. Whereas for others it is the JF-17. Post quoted above calls Jf-17 as the “Worst decision ever made by PAF”.

No doubt even the best professionals have difference of opinion and one could possibly accept such comments by an ex-PAF fighter pilot who has flown many contemporary aircrafts and concluded that JF-17 performance is below par & hence would be a sitting duck in combat.

Additionally, since JF-17 is to be the ‘work horse’ of future PAF fleet; I would expect Honourable ‘Asli Lahori’ to back up such a strong condemnation of the PAF General Staff and the aircraft with concrete evidence. At the very least; a viable alternative that was available to Pakistan but was not taken up by the idiots at the PAF who pursued JF-17 instead; should be provided.

In my personal opinion; given the scarce resources available to the country and the fact that in case of any Western fighter; there would always be threat of sanctions; Thunder is the best aircraft that PAF could afford to acquire in large numbers. It may not be the ‘State of the art’ but still far superior to the Mig21’s & Mirage s that JF-17 is scheduled to replace.

This post reminds of a quote by famous sage Sh. Saadi who stated:

Harkas ra aql-e-khood by kamaal me numayed wa aulad-e khwaish ba jamaal.

Meaning “Everyone considers his intellect to be excellent and his children beautiful.” This was said in 13th century but very true even today.