Why was Turkey the first Islamic country to recognize the state of Israel?

[Kaniska]

2015 I were in Istanbul, Turkey. Very nice & friendly people. When they get know that you are from Pakistan. They are very friendly and nice to that person. Believe me a lot of respect for Pakistanis there. Believe me or not me to discussed that topic that why Turkey have relation with Israel. I were told that its all about business $$$$. They (Israeli) have business here and even their name is according to Islamic name. But they are Jewish. About Pakistan we feel you our Islamic brother country suffering a lot of problems from India, USA, Israel, Afghanistan, from its own poor politicians. But still stand there as Super Power of Islamic State.

Do you have any reason to engage India for any reason?..Please do not derail the thread.

 

[Timur]

is this not enuff to wake you up. British empire, usa empire then it will be israel empire.
world war 1, 2 and 3 on the way.

only leader that was following the right formula was gaddafi, gold dinar for oil.

gaddafi was a dog.. he did it for his own interest he was not a good man..

go and read something about him.. he did not ban adhan he wanted to turn it into turkish.. lots of things had been banned and lots of things had been changed.. we won the war but we wanted to be like the ones who attacked us that is somehow idiotic..

maybe that he was freemason and had different goals like the ottomans but same goals as british masons -lightens it up for ppl of understanding..

You are confusing secularism and Kemalism. The Kemalist ideology might be secular but that's just one aspect of this mindset. Kemalism is an authoritarian and anti-liberal concept of society. It isn't by any means democratic. It forces people to change their lifestyle even though they're not doing any harm to others; it destroys individualism; it takes your choices. And it doesn't separate religion and state, in fact, it puts religion under the supervision of the government, thus, effectively intervening in peoples civil and private lifes in Turkey. Turks suffered from Kemalism not from secularism.

As a liberal secularist, I am not supporting certain political statements made by Turkish users regarding Israel. I'm not anti Israel but this doesn't mean we should support them. Just stay away from this mess.

Furthermore, I must admit that your observations of Turkish politics are wrong. You're looking at the right developments but making wrong conclusions.

Never forget this if you debating Turkey:

The Turkish people were ruled by Sharia law for 600 years. They were the center of Islam.

However, from 1923 to 2002 though, Turkey was one of the most secular countries of this planet.

Images from Kemalist Turkey:

Beer drinking competition

Republican woman

Wine tastings

People's school - run to the schools! Liberate yourselves from the darkness! Every disaster comes from Cahiliyat!

Ankara beer advertisement

Yalova thermal spring

Can you imagine how incredible radical this change was? In just a couple of months, literally over night, the Turkish people were forced to change basically every little part of their believe system, lifestyle, traditions, social conventions etc. simply everything.

What we are seeing in Turkey today is no Islamization. Historically, Turkey is discovering its social and political balance. Neither Erdoğan has the power to change Turkey's secular reality nor is he following the Kemalist understanding.

He did not forbid alcohol, prostitution or interest but rather restricted all of them. Drink your beer but don't do it in close proximity to mosques/churches/synagogues or schools. Marriage is an Islamic value but you have to go to the marriage office first to register your marriage. You can still get interest based state bonds but the state must offer you an Islamic alternative. etc.

Some people from both camps can't cope with this much of freedom. The Ottoman Empire is history so is Kemalist Turkey. We should learn to choose a healthy, liberal way to life together in one society. To each his own.


According to Erdoğan, sovereignty belongs first and foremost to the people of the nation.

“Some [people] in this country did not recognize the will of the people. Some [people] in this country did not recognize the will of Parliament. Some [people] did not recognize [Turkey’s founder] Gazi Mustafa Kemal [Atatürk], who said that ‘Sovereignty unconditionally belongs to the people. ... They said ‘sovereignty belongs to us’ and got the tanks rolling,” Erdoğan said.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty_unconditionally_belongs_to_the_Nation

the goal is crystal clear.. we got latin alphabet because it comes from west and is not islamic.. it was all about changing society to non islamic society so that the brits and europeans do not have to fight us anymore they have our ppl on their sides.. banning arabic script means to make shure that they cannot read the quran..

However, from 1923 to 2002

and from 2002 up to now we got even more secular in our hearts..

healthy, liberal way to life

healthy liberal means the way islam is that is healthy and liberal and everything other is extremism

 

[Azadkashmir]

gaddafi was a dog.. he did it for his own interest he was not a good man..

go and read something about him.. he did not ban adhan he wanted to turn it into turkish.. lots of things had been banned and lots of things had been changed.. we won the war but we wanted to be like the ones who attacked us that is somehow idiotic..

maybe that he was freemason and had different goals like the ottomans but same goals as british masons -lightens it up for ppl of understanding..



the goal is crystal clear.. we got latin alphabet because it comes from west and is not islamic.. it was all about changing society to non islamic society so that the brits and europeans do not have to fight us anymore they have our ppl on their sides.. banning arabic script means to make shure that they cannot read the quran..




and from 2002 up to now we got even more secular in our hearts..




healthy liberal means the way islam is that is healthy and liberal and everything other is extremism

how was gaddafi a dog he made mistakes but tell me which leaders haven't. he provided for the population more than any other leader has done for their own country. for example housing, cars, education, healthcare, food, agriculture land/machines, he built the man made river project in the desert. his mistake trusting other sellout Zionist puppet arab countries, people around him were sellout jackals, he didnt built up military deterrence.

he paid for africa satelite which cut out british/usa firms which pist them off. he was going to unite africa as united state of africa, on gold and silver no more rothschild/imf bank.

The money from oil sales a percentage went straight into the bank accounts of the people.

which leader can drive his car down the road and be greeted only gaddafi. the rest need 100 guards around them etc.

 

[Fenasi Kerim]

If you are happy with Ataturk's reforms, then that is your choice and your people's choice. I am nobody to tell anything to anyone.

However for my country (Pakistan) I want the Arabic/Persian script to stay.

Our Urdu language works quite well with the Arabic/Persian Nastaliq script.

Yes we are happy with Ataturk, we love him. Adoption of Arabic, Persian, Latin, Cyrillic script is nothing new among Turks. I'd prefer old Turkic script but that is near impossible to implement so the easiest thing Latin will do.

Funny Pakistanis promote Arabic script but you don't understand three lines of the Quran. As if script is something holy lol

If you love Arabic so much go learn it and keep it to yourself.

 

[Luffy 500]

Turkey was a militant secular anti-islamic state ruled by ataturk's children back then. SO naturally the rulers of such a polity sucked up to zionazi Israelis. SO your question it self is wrong @Farhan Malik. Also you should try to distinguish between nations and their citizens/residents. Both are NOT the same.

Btw why does PDF censor facts about ataturk. Why does posts that do NOT reflect the laic kemalist narrative of ataturk gets deleted? It requires NO mentioning that ataturk's image is not so bright (to say the least) among Muslims around the world and for justifiable and factual reasons. Not to mention in turkey itself ,notwithstanding kemalist propaganda, significant portions of turks absolutely loathes that guy. So is PDF not being absurdly bias towards only a portion of vast turkish society i.e kemalist with this pro-ataturk stance of theirs? From another angle is NOT PDF sanctifying a tyrannical political figure who is controversial to say the least? Why this bais? PAK can bash all their political leaders, one can bash modi, bush and many war criminals then why this sanctification of ataturk?
@WebMaster

 

[Timur]

how was gaddafi a dog he made mistakes but tell me which leaders haven't

from his human side he was not even a dog.. he was insane and filthy dont make such leaders holy men they are dictators and enemies of islam

 

[chatterjee]

Why should it change,i hope insallah it will never change and stay as it is a Secular Republic.

Why a country with 98% of Muslim population should not run by Islamic law? Why you should follow west instead of your own norms and values? Btw I am just curious to know

 

[Śakra]

I'd prefer old Turkic script but that is near impossible to implement

Why? Is it difficult to learn? Can you post pictures of how it looks?

 

[Timur]

Why? Is it difficult to learn? Can you post pictures of how it looks?

https://www.omniglot.com/writing/orkhon.htm

http://fluentinturkish.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/orkhon.jpg

in my opinion it looks badass

 

[HAIDER]

Was there any pressure on the Turkish government of the time by the Americans and British to endorse Israel or did they do it by choice?

For a change.

 

[T-123456]

Why a country with 98% of Muslim population should not run by Islamic law? Why you should follow west instead of your own norms and values? Btw I am just curious to know

We try to do whats best for our country,islamic law is not good for my people
Norms and values you learn from culture and tradition,not by religion,do all Muslims have the same norms and values?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

To @xenon54 @KediKesenFare and other Turkish members. By now you will have observed a phenomenon here. A visceral hatred of Isreal and general antipathy toward the west. You guys will be rather bemused about this because the sources of this hatred have little or zero geographic contact with Israel and are rather distant from the West. Here I am thinking of Pakistanis and even more so Bangladeshis. The reason is simple.

These countries were enslaved by European powers and were defeated cultures. Militarily, economically and politically they were castrated in the 1800s and had to face the humiliation of being political slaves of Western imperial rulers.

Take for example early 1900s. Every single group of peoples that you see today being so animated by their hatred of the West [hatred of Israel is a more concentrated version] were flat out slaves of the same West they despise today. Only Muslim peoples that faced the West in early 1900s when they rest were all enslaved were the Turks and Persians.

Defeatist Credo

It's interesting that today Turks and Persians are most at ease with the West. I don;'t mean here the politics of the Turkish or Iranian state - but rather the average people. Turks and Iranians tend to be cool with the West from cultural point of view. The Iranians do show some ambivalence but that is because they did get humilitated by the West to a degree,

The result of the enslavement of the ancestors of Pakistanis, Bangladeshis etc carries a terrible toll today. The defeat and humiliation at the hands of Western imperial powers left a terrible scar. A legacy of defeatism. The burden of which we still carry today and it still resonates in our day to day thinking.

This scar of humiliation - don't forget for over a century British ruled our part of the world like masters and trampled on our people. This crushing humiliation led a to defeatist credo which was pretty much composed of hatred of everything European. This defeatist credo was reflected in hatred of everything Western - culture, morals etc. Thus for example aversion to Latin script. It is not the script that they are averse to so much as what the context of the script is - Western domination and enslavement because the Latin script used by their masters. The script is being crucified by association.


Vicarious Living

Besides the defeatist credo there is another thread playing out. During the enslavement of our people [1850s onward] they found sanctuary from the terrible reality of being slaves of Western powers. To detach fom the terrible reality of being a crushed people ruled by few Western soldiers they began dreaming. Dreaming of the past golden age of Islam or began to dream of the great Ottoman Empire that was still though much weakened was still standing up against the West - the same West that had defeated and enslaved them. So they found a denominator that offered a release from their terrible reality. Since they were not Arabs or Turks they could not gain any comfort from the Ottoman Empire or the Ummayad Empire stressing ethnic identity merely exposed their enslavement. However by stressing the "Muslim" identity it enabled them to escape from their disgusting failure as a people. It amounted to stealing another peoples history.

Therefore they constructed a Muslim identity that deluded itself by living or thinking or acting as inheritors of the Ummayad or Ottoman Empires etc in the form of "Muslims". Thus people [Pakistanis, Banglas, Somalis, etc] who had nothing to do with those empire began living as vicarious khalifas - Ottoman, Ummayad, Rashidun etc. This offered a escape from the real reality of slavery and conquest by the West. Vicarious living provided a collective delusion out of humiliation.

Today we are victims of credo of defeatism which has been synthesised as Islam in the form you see in Pakistan etc. The reasons most of our Turkish members have difficulty in relating their easy going pragmatic Islam to the crude reactive Islam in members from South Asia is because the latter is the Islam mixed with the credo of defeatism.

That is why they get aghast at the thought of Latin script or anything to do with the West. For example in Pakistan our ancestors were using Greek script [from which Latin is derived[ as far back as 2,300 years ago. So it is not like Latin is entirely strange from our land. But the problem is Latin has become poisoned by the credo of defeatism. The Islam that you see being spouted from South Asia is nothing but credo of defeat and hate dressed with some rituals to give it the contours of Islam.

Building up on this credo of hate. You will notice that some of the most virulently anti-West Pakistanis or Banglas are those who actually live in the West. They are amongst the biggest dreamers of Muslim khalifas and look on at Ottoman Empire as if their great-grandads were sat in Topkapi Palace in Istanbul in 1900s. It is they who destest Ataturk for having gotten ride of "their" khalifa. The reason is again credo of hate and reaction. These individuals brought up in poor tough inner city areas of UK - children of migrants from regions that were defeated and colonized have struggled against racism from the wider white society. They have struggled to integrated. Partly because of their own fault but pattly because of racism.

This has reinforced the historical credo of hate and humiliation. Now added to the historcal humiliation of their forefathers they nurse the anger of being marginalized and being subjected to raciism. This has caused even more hate of the West and even stronger deataching from reality by retiring into the fantasy worlds of khalifas and Islamic empire where they imagine themselves to be the direct descendants of this historical supremacy.

I needed to explain this because Turks who have never been enslaved probably can't understand this complex history. I guess to a lesser degree the Eastern Europeans display something similar because they also were humiliated by the Turks. However unlike us the have found Western Europe/Russia as their saviour.

Therefore next time you see something innocent - maybe pair of trousers, skirt, shaving blade, simple Roman script etc. You see it as a neutral quantity. Our people see these as "loaded". Thus the bizzare reactions. The reaction against Israel is party fueled by their own conquest of their lands by the West. Israel is reminder to them of Western colonialism.

The day we can ovecome this legacy of defeat dressed as our Islam is the day we can move forward. Until then we are trapped in yessterday. That is why the Ottoman well is looked on as Turkish by you guys, the Ummayad well as Arab by guys like @Sharif al-Hijaz but our people insist on branding them as "Muslim" because that is the only way they can take a drink.

The only way Pakistanis can overcome from this colonial scar of being a vanquished people is by owning our own fantastic history going back to Harappa 7,000 BCE. That is why I have interest in history. The day our people fully own up our glorious history they won;t need to rely on milching other peoples history to overcome the shame of being subject peoples of the British Empire.

And the more our Turkish/Arab friends are blunt about this delusion of using "Muslim" tag to provide vicarious pride the faster our people will begin waking up from this delusion.

 

[Fenasi Kerim]

To @xenon54 @KediKesenFare and other Turkish members. By now you will have observed a phenomenon here. A visceral hatred of Isreal and general antipathy toward the west. You guys will be rather bemused about this because the sources of this hatred have little or zero geographic contact with Israel and are rather distant from the West. Here I am thinking of Pakistanis and even more so Bangladeshis. The reason is simple.

These countries were enslaved by European powers and were defeated cultures. Militarily, economically and politically they were castrated in the 1800s and had to face the humiliation of being political slaves of Western imperial rulers.

Take for example early 1900s. Every single group of peoples that you see today being so animated by their hatred of the West [hatred of Israel is a more concentrated version] were flat out slaves of the same West they despise today. Only Muslim peoples that faced the West in early 1900s when they rest were all enslaved were the Turks and Persians.

Defeatist Credo

It's interesting that today Turks and Persians are most at ease with the West. I don;'t mean here the politics of the Turkish or Iranian state - but rather the average people. Turks and Iranians tend to be cool with the West from cultural point of view. The Iranians do show some ambivalence but that is because they did get humilitated by the West to a degree,

The result of the enslavement of the ancestors of Pakistanis, Bangladeshis etc carries a terrible toll today. The defeat and humiliation at the hands of Western imperial powers left a terrible scar. A legacy of defeatism. The burden of which we still carry today and it still resonates in our day to day thinking.

This scar of humiliation - don't forget for over a century British ruled our part of the world like masters and trampled on our people. This crushing humiliation led a to defeatist credo which was pretty much composed of hatred of everything European. This defeatist credo was reflected in hatred of everything Western - culture, morals etc. Thus for example aversion to Latin script. It is not the script that they are averse to so much as what the context of the script is - Western domination and enslavement because the Latin script used by their masters. The script is being crucified by association.


Vicarious Living

Besides the defeatist credo there is another thread playing out. During the enslavement of our people [1850s onward] they found sanctuary from the terrible reality of being slaves of Western powers. To detach fom the terrible reality of being a crushed people ruled by few Western soldiers they began dreaming. Dreaming of the past golden age of Islam or began to dream of the great Ottoman Empire that was still though much weakened was still standing up against the West - the same West that had defeated and enslaved them. So they found a denominator that offered a release from their terrible reality. Since they were not Arabs or Turks they could not gain any comfort from the Ottoman Empire or the Ummayad Empire stressing ethnic identity merely exposed their enslavement. However by stressing the "Muslim" identity it enabled them to escape from their disgusting failure as a people. It amounted to stealing another peoples history.

Therefore they constructed a Muslim identity that deluded itself by living or thinking or acting as inheritors of the Ummayad or Ottoman Empires etc in the form of "Muslims". Thus people [Pakistanis, Banglas, Somalis, etc] who had nothing to do with those empire began living as vicarious khalifas - Ottoman, Ummayad, Rashidun etc. This offered a escape from the real reality of slavery and conquest by the West. Vicarious living provided a collective delusion out of humiliation.

Today we are victims of credo of defeatism which has been synthesised as Islam in the form you see in Pakistan etc. The reasons most of our Turkish members have difficulty in relating their easy going pragmatic Islam to the crude reactive Islam in members from South Asia is because the latter is the Islam mixed with the credo of defeatism.

That is why they get aghast at the thought of Latin script or anything to do with the West. For example in Pakistan our ancestors were using Greek script [from which Latin is derived[ as far back as 2,300 years ago. So it is not like Latin is entirely strange from our land. But the problem is Latin has become poisoned by the credo of defeatism. The Islam that you see being spouted from South Asia is nothing but credo of defeat and hate dressed with some rituals to give it the contours of Islam.

Building up on this credo of hate. You will notice that some of the most virulently anti-West Pakistanis or Banglas are those who actually live in the West. They are amongst the biggest dreamers of Muslim khalifas and look on at Ottoman Empire as if their great-grandads were sat in Topkapi Palace in Istanbul in 1900s. It is they who destest Ataturk for having gotten ride of "their" khalifa. The reason is again credo of hate and reaction. These individuals brought up in poor tough inner city areas of UK - children of migrants from regions that were defeated and colonized have struggled against racism from the wider white society. They have struggled to integrated. Partly because of their own fault but pattly because of racism.

This has reinforced the historical credo of hate and humiliation. Now added to the historcal humiliation of their forefathers they nurse the anger of being marginalized and being subjected to raciism. This has caused even more hate of the West and even stronger deataching from reality by retiring into the fantasy worlds of khalifas and Islamic empire where they imagine themselves to be the direct descendants of this historical supremacy.

I needed to explain this because Turks who have never been enslaved probably can't understand this complex history. I guess to a lesser degree the Eastern Europeans display something similar because they also were humiliated by the Turks. However unlike us the have found Western Europe/Russia as their saviour.

Therefore next time you see something innocent - maybe pair of trousers, skirt, shaving blade, simple Roman script etc. You see it as a neutral quantity. Our people see these as "loaded". Thus the bizzare reactions. The reaction against Israel is party fueled by their own conquest of their lands by the West. Israel is reminder to them of Western colonialism.

The day we can ovecome this legacy of defeat dressed as our Islam is the day we can move forward. Until then we are trapped in yessterday. That is why the Ottoman well is looked on as Turkish by you guys, the Ummayad well as Arab by guys like @Sharif al-Hijaz but our people insist on branding them as "Muslim" because that is the only way they can take a drink.

The only way Pakistanis can overcome from this colonial scar of being a vanquished people is by owning our own fantastic history going back to Harappa 7,000 BCE. That is why I have interest in history. The day our people fully own up our glorious history they won;t need to rely on milching other peoples history to overcome the shame of being subject peoples of the British Empire.

And the more our Turkish/Arab friends are blunt about this delusion of using "Muslim" tag to provide vicarious pride the faster our people will begin waking up from this delusion.

Up voted and saved before being deleted for being so true and blunt. Be careful you might get banned or called an Indian/Israeli agent now

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Indian/Israeli agent now

To be fair the Indians are to some degree similarily afflicted - although the defeatism is not as acute because they were already being ruled by Moghul/Turkic/Afghan dynasties and the British era actually freed them from Muslim rule. However they are still conflicted - less so then Pakistanis though. The scars of defeat are manifested in all manner of things.

Indian PM. Do you notice his dress?

 

[-SINAN-]

Well I want to keep the Arabic script in Pakistan, because I feel proud of my culture.

You are proud of Arabic script as a Pakistani ??? Are you an Arab or Pakistani ?