A few Siachen facts and bluffs!

[Levina]

Who encroached on the Pakistani land of Siachen first ? Bengaalis ? This is what sparked Kargil conflict

Since the thread where we were discussing India-Pakistan wars is closed, I decided to bring the discussion here on my thread where we could discuss all about Siachen.

A few Siachen facts and bluffs!
Siachen timeline

1) Siachen was NOT Pakistani land. And the critical date is not 1984 but July 29, 1949, when the Cease-Fire Line Agreement was signed in Karachi by India and Pakistan and the UN Military Observer Group. CFL clearly says that anything “thence north to the glaciers”belongs to Pakistan( this means the area above the glacier). But the area above NJ9842 remained not demarcated as it was an elevated glaciated region.

2) CFL was revalidated as the LoC after Simla, and it incorporated the military gains made by either side in J&K in the 1971 war. In the Kargil-Siachen sector, all gains went entirely to India which acquired the Turtok salient just south-west of NJ 9842.

3) why were there no protests from Pakistan's side in 1956 (through 58) when an Indian scientific team led by the Geological Survey explored the upper Nubra and Shyok Valleys, mapped and measured the Siachen and other glaciers and publicly recorded its findings???

4) All Pakistan, UN and global atlases depicted the CFL correctly till around 1967-72. But the idea to expand eastwards struck when, between 1967 and 1972 the US Defence Mapping Agency made a cartographic error by extending the CFL from NJ 9842 to a point just west of the Karakoram Pass.

4) One look at the geography would help anyone comprehend why Pakistan desired Siachen; direct access to China was the main objective.

Perhaps a zoomed out map would make the picture (and intention more clear)

5)Even if we were to apply the watershed principle then the saltoro ridge would work as the demarcation between the glaciers.

Rest they say is history.....

The topic is open for debate

@OrionHunter @Abingdonboy @thesolar65 @SpArK @nair @SarthakGanguly @SrNair @kurup @MilSpec and others...

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

Since the thread where we were discussing India-Pakistan wars is closed, I decided to bring the discussion here on my thread where we could discuss all about Siachen.

A few Siachen facts and bluffs!

1) Siachen was NOT Pakistani land. And the critical date is not 1984 but July 29, 1949, when the Cease-Fire Line Agreement was signed in Karachi by India and Pakistan and the UN Military Observer Group. CFL clearly says that anything “thence north to the glaciers”belongs to Pakistan( this means the area above the glacier). But the area above NJ9842 remained demarcated as it was an elevated glaciated region.

2) CFL was revalidated as the LoC after Simla, and it incorporated the military gains made by either side in J&K in the 1971 war. In the Kargil-Siachen sector, all gains went entirely to India which acquired the Turtok salient just south-west of NJ 9842.

3) why were there no protests from Pakistan's side in 1956 (through 58) when an Indian scientific team led by the Geological Survey explored the upper Nubra and Shyok Valleys, mapped and measured the Siachen and other glaciers and publicly recorded its findings???

4) All Pakistan, UN and global atlases depicted the CFL correctly till around 1967-72. But the idea to expand eastwards struck when, between 1967 and 1972 the US Defence Mapping Agency made a cartographic error by extending the CFL from NJ 9842 to a point just west of the Karakoram Pass.

4) One look at the geography would help anyone comprehend why Pakistan desired Siachen; direct access to China was the main objective.
View attachment 224303


Perhaps a zoomed out map would make the picture (and intention more clear)

View attachment 224304


Rest they say is history.....

The topic is open for debate

@OrionHunter @Abingdonboy @thesolar65 @SpArK @nair @SarthakGanguly @SrNair @kurup @MilSpec and others...

How does that matter, when the whole Kashmir is disputed? And Siachen lies within territory of J&K(IOK)

 

[Levina]

How does that matter, when the whole Kashmir is disputed? And Siachen lies within territory of J&K

Read the opening statement by Bratva.

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

Read the opening statement by Bratva.

We consider your J&K as Pakistani land itself, occupied by India.

 

[Viva India]

Brigadier Javed Hussain former SSG


" October 1947, following the announcement of Kashmir’s accession to India, the Gilgit Scouts, a predominantly Muslim force raised by the British for internal security, revolted against the Dogras, and in a series of daring actions in1948 captured Kargil, Drass, Zoji La Pass and Skardu. However, in November 1948, Zoji La Pass and Kargil were recaptured by the Indians while the Kargil heights remained with the Gilgit Scouts.

During the Rann of Kutch conflict, these heights were captured by the Indians for the first time on May 17, 1965, for use as a bargaining counter in the negotiations. As a result of the agreement reached, the heights were returned to Pakistan in June 1965. In the first week of August 1965, Operation Gibraltar was launched. One of the areas used by the infiltrating force was the Kargil heights. To block these routes, the Indians captured the heights for the second time in the third week of August 1965. But after the signing of the Tashkent Agreement, the heights were once again returned to Pakistan.

On the outbreak of war on the western front on December 3, 1971, the Indians captured the heights for the third time on December 9, 1971. This time, however, they retained the heights in line with the Shimla Agreement under which the violable Cease Fire Line (CFL), created in December 1948 on cessation of hostilities in Kashmir, was converted into an inviolable Line of Control (LoC), on the basis of actual possession of territory at the time of the ceasefire in December 1971. When the Indians captured the heights on three different occasions, the Pakistani force that was overwhelmed, consisted mostly of lightly armed, inadequately equipped Karakoram and Gilgit Scouts, both paramilitary outfits"

 

[Levina]

We consider your J&K as Pakistani land itself, occupied by India.

And we "consider" J&K as ours.
But the world doesnt run on assumptions and considerations; we follow maps and agreements (by we I meant India).

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

Brigadier Javed Hussain former SSG


" October 1947, following the announcement of Kashmir’s accession to India, the Gilgit Scouts, a predominantly Muslim force raised by the British for internal security, revolted against the Dogras, and in a series of daring actions in1948 captured Kargil, Drass, Zoji La Pass and Skardu. However, in November 1948, Zoji La Pass and Kargil were recaptured by the Indians while the Kargil heights remained with the Gilgit Scouts.

During the Rann of Kutch conflict, these heights were captured by the Indians for the first time on May 17, 1965, for use as a bargaining counter in the negotiations. As a result of the agreement reached, the heights were returned to Pakistan in June 1965. In the first week of August 1965, Operation Gibraltar was launched. One of the areas used by the infiltrating force was the Kargil heights. To block these routes, the Indians captured the heights for the second time in the third week of August 1965. But after the signing of the Tashkent Agreement, the heights were once again returned to Pakistan.

On the outbreak of war on the western front on December 3, 1971, the Indians captured the heights for the third time on December 9, 1971. This time, however, they retained the heights in line with the Shimla Agreement under which the violable Cease Fire Line (CFL), created in December 1948 on cessation of hostilities in Kashmir, was converted into an inviolable Line of Control (LoC), on the basis of actual possession of territory at the time of the ceasefire in December 1971. When the Indians captured the heights on three different occasions, the Pakistani force that was overwhelmed, consisted mostly of lightly armed, inadequately equipped Karakoram and Gilgit Scouts, both paramilitary outfits"

And we "consider" J&K as ours.
But the world doesnt run on assumptions and considerations; we have definite maps and agreements which we follow (by we I meant India).

The demarcated LOC is till point NJ9842 only and only in 1980's India violated it's own Simla Agreement by creating a violable CFL in siachen. So if we violate again, it is as per your rules only.

 

[Viva India]

On April 13, 1984 a small force of the Indian Army occupied the Bilafond La pass. Four days later, another small force occupied the Sia La pass. Both passes, the former at over 18,000 ft and the latter at over 20,000 ft are located in the Saltoro Range and serve as the gateway to the Siachen Glacier. The Indians had moved fast after receiving intelligence that the Pakistan Army was planning to occupy them. The first Pakistani reaction to the occupation of the passes came on April 24/25, 1984 when a small force attempted to get to the Bilafond La in an uphill assault but was thwarted by the difficult glaciated terrain and adverse weather conditions.

In the days that followed, the Indian Army built up a large force to defend the 80 kilometre-long Saltoro Range ridgeline. Since then, the Saltoro Range has been the focal point of operations — the Pakistanis seeking to gain a foothold on the ridge line, the Indians denying it.

In early April 1987, another attempt was made by the Pakistan Army to gain a foothold on the Saltoro ridgeline. A small force consisting of about a dozen SSG commandos, using ropes and ladders, went up a vertical cliff and occupied a position at over 21,000 ft that dominated the Indian positions at Bilafond La. They named it Quaid post. The Indian Army made several attempts to evict the commandos but each time they were repulsed with heavy casualties. On June 25, 1987, they succeeded in taking the post as the commandos had run out of ammunition and could not be resupplied as the base supporting them came under fire. With the only foothold on the ridgeline lost, the Pakistan Army launched a major attack in September 1987 to get to Bilafond La. The attack was repulsed. In March 1989, another attempt was made, this time in the Chumik glacier, three kilometres east of Giari (recently hit by an avalanche). At over 19,000 ft, the place chosen is the most difficult to scale in the Saltoro Range for either side. In a daring operation the peak was occupied by two men, an officer and a non-commissioned officer, slung from a helicopter on a rope, turn by turn. The two thwarted all Indian efforts to get to the top for 36 hours after which they were reinforced by a handful of soldiers dropped in similar fashion. But in May 1989 when the Indians succeeded in neutralising the supply base supporting the soldiers on the peak, the post was vacated.

In November 1992, yet another attempt was made to get to the ridgeline by means of a major attack. Launched in haste, the attack ended in failure. As a consequence, the general officer commanding was sacked. Most of the casualties suffered by Pakistani troops in combat were in the two major attacks (September 1987, November 1992).

The Indians have rarely embarked on a major offensive venture. They have left this to the Pakistanis who have obliged them at least twice . The loss of Quaid post and withdrawal from the Chumik glacier post due to lack of logistic support to a handful of men, are cases in point. Despite twelve rounds of negotiations, the two have not been able to reach an amicable settlement because of domestic political compulsions and mutual mistrust (exacerbated by the Kargil conflict). The dispute revolves round the extension of the Line of Control (LOC) beyond a point on the Saltoro Range known by its map reference as NJ 9820420. The demarcated LOC ends at this point —“thence north to the glaciers” is what the Karachi agreement of 1949 states about the extension. According to the Indians, this meant that the LoC should extend northwards along the Saltoro Range up to Sia Kangri.

On the other hand, Pakistan’s stand is that beyond NJ 9820420, the LOC should extend eastward up to the Karakoram pass. Extending the LOC northwards would give the entire Siachen Glacier-Saltoro area to India, while extending it eastward would give it to Pakistan.

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

The Indians have rarely embarked on a major offensive venture. They have left this to the Pakistanis who have obliged them at least twice . The loss of Quaid post and withdrawal from the Chumik glacier post due to lack of logistic support to a handful of men, are cases in point. Despite twelve rounds of negotiations, the two have not been able to reach an amicable settlement because of domestic political compulsions and mutual mistrust (exacerbated by the Kargil conflict). The dispute revolves round the extension of the Line of Control (LOC) beyond a point on the Saltoro Range known by its map reference as NJ 9820420. The demarcated LOC ends at this point —“thence north to the glaciers” is what the Karachi agreement of 1949 states about the extension. According to the Indians, this meant that the LoC should extend northwards along the Saltoro Range up to Sia Kangri.

On the other hand, Pakistan’s stand is that beyond NJ 9820420, the LOC should extend eastward up to the Karakoram pass. Extending the LOC northwards would give the entire Siachen Glacier-Saltoro area to India, while extending it eastward would give it to Pakistan.

That is correct and violations will keep happening from Pakistan's side.

 

[Levina]

The demarcated LOC is till point NJ9842 only

Nope CFL had very clearly mentioned "thence north to glaciers" and in Shimla agreement it was accepted that all gains would go entirely to India, by then India had acquired the Turtok salient.

 

[GURU DUTT]

That is correct and violations will keep happening from Pakistan's side.

it is infact good for owr cause

1.it will keep indian armed forces on highest alert levels and give owr troops much needed target practise

2.it will keep PA bizzi and which in trun get us western backing and dilute pakistans so called "kashmir cause"

 

[Viva India]

That is correct and violations will keep happening from Pakistan's side.

According to your Brigadier India occupied after Pakistan was planning to occupy it in violation of SA.

It was a brilliant pre emptive operation by India

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

Nope CFL had very clearly mentioned "thence north to glaciers" and in Shimla agreement it was accepted that all gains would go entirely to India, by then India had acquired the Turtok salient.

Simla agreement happened in 1970's, Siachen theatre came into existence in 1984 after that you did not revive Simla Agreement in the form of Agra summit, which included Siachen. But the talks collapsed and no signatures were done.

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

According to your Brigadier India occupied after Pakistan was planning to occupy it in violation of SA.

It was a brilliant pre emptive operation by India

Violation of simla agreement, crossing over LOC illegally

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Brigadier Javed Hussain former SSG


" October 1947, following the announcement of Kashmir’s accession to India, the Gilgit Scouts, a predominantly Muslim force raised by the British for internal security, revolted against the Dogras, and in a series of daring actions in1948 captured Kargil, Drass, Zoji La Pass and Skardu. However, in November 1948, Zoji La Pass and Kargil were recaptured by the Indians while the Kargil heights remained with the Gilgit Scouts.

During the Rann of Kutch conflict, these heights were captured by the Indians for the first time on May 17, 1965, for use as a bargaining counter in the negotiations. As a result of the agreement reached, the heights were returned to Pakistan in June 1965. In the first week of August 1965, Operation Gibraltar was launched. One of the areas used by the infiltrating force was the Kargil heights. To block these routes, the Indians captured the heights for the second time in the third week of August 1965. But after the signing of the Tashkent Agreement, the heights were once again returned to Pakistan.

On the outbreak of war on the western front on December 3, 1971, the Indians captured the heights for the third time on December 9, 1971. This time, however, they retained the heights in line with the Shimla Agreement under which the violable Cease Fire Line (CFL), created in December 1948 on cessation of hostilities in Kashmir, was converted into an inviolable Line of Control (LoC), on the basis of actual possession of territory at the time of the ceasefire in December 1971. When the Indians captured the heights on three different occasions, the Pakistani force that was overwhelmed, consisted mostly of lightly armed, inadequately equipped Karakoram and Gilgit Scouts, both paramilitary outfits"

Hence, Brigadier Javed Hussain is pronounced a 'traitor ' in absentia.