Are Pakistan's Military forces a contemporary example of the Jaanissaries from the Ottoman Empire

[TigerOfMysore]

I believe that if we are to understand the current structure and functioning of the Pakistani Military establishment a good analogy is to study the Jaanissaries of the Ottomans. Though the JNS were essential in helping the Ottoman's build an empire they eventually starting killing the nation state or the hand that fed them. In our case our military accomplishments are less glorious and yet we find our military structure operate in the manner that the Jaanissaries did at the tail end of this influence. In the end the Khalifah of the time had to crush them for the state to survive.
Here is an interesting excerpt from Wiki - the analogy is scary.

"As Janissaries became aware of their own importance, they began to desire a better life. By the early 17th century Janissaries had such prestige and influence that they dominated the government. They could mutiny, dictate policy, and hinder efforts to modernize the army structure. Additionally, the Janissaries found they could change Sultans as they wished through palace coups. They made themselves landholders and tradesmen. They would also limit the enlistment to the sons of former Janissaries who did not have to go through the original training period in the acemi oğlan, as well as avoiding the physical selection, thereby reducing their military value. When Janissaries could practically extort money from the Sultan and business and family life replaced martial fervour, their effectiveness as combat troops decreased. The northern borders of the Ottoman Empire slowly began to shrink southwards after the second Battle of Vienna in 1683.[citation needed]"

 

[AlKardai]

I believe that if we are to understand the current structure and functioning of the Pakistani Military establishment a good analogy is to study the Jaanissaries of the Ottomans. Though the JNS were essential in helping the Ottoman's build an empire they eventually starting killing the nation state or the hand that fed them. In our case our military accomplishments are less glorious and yet we find our military structure operate in the manner that the Jaanissaries did at the tail end of this influence. In the end the Khalifah of the time had to crush them for the state to survive.
Here is an interesting excerpt from Wiki - the analogy is scary.

"As Janissaries became aware of their own importance, they began to desire a better life. By the early 17th century Janissaries had such prestige and influence that they dominated the government. They could mutiny, dictate policy, and hinder efforts to modernize the army structure. Additionally, the Janissaries found they could change Sultans as they wished through palace coups. They made themselves landholders and tradesmen. They would also limit the enlistment to the sons of former Janissaries who did not have to go through the original training period in the acemi oğlan, as well as avoiding the physical selection, thereby reducing their military value. When Janissaries could practically extort money from the Sultan and business and family life replaced martial fervour, their effectiveness as combat troops decreased. The northern borders of the Ottoman Empire slowly began to shrink southwards after the second Battle of Vienna in 1683.[citation needed]"

Exactly. Whilst the Janissaries provided a massive manpower boost to the military of the ottoman empire, their meddling in political situations lead to the state almost being driven to disrepair.

Yet they were crushed and put back in their place to preserve basic law, Justice and righteousness, as are the cornerstones of Islam which Pakistan is fundamentally based upon.

Pakistan needs to seriously consider doing the same

 

[Maula Jatt]

Yes they're - and that shows exactly what we're dealing with here and it's dangers

Janissaries we're singlehandedly responsible for slow ottoman collapse as they occupied it's industries, trade, ministries and everything of importance

From that position of power they stopped every major reforms to fix the ottoman empire cause those reforms more often than not resulted in them losing power or hurting thier pockets

 

[Big Tank]

LOOOOOOOOLLL

NO.

Pakistan Army is not a contemporary of Janisaries. Judging you on your comparison, you've read very less about Janisaries.

They were subordinates of the Sultan and maintained dominance under the Military wing. No matter what, they remained loyal to the Sultan, won them a lot of battles like no one else, fought till the end.

And here we've the Pakistan Army. Got some Kashmir in 1948 with the help of Tribals who ended up looting/raping Kashmiris themselves.

Were about to lose Lahore in 65 after a TACTICALLY POOR OPERATION GIBRALTAR WHERE SSG OPERATIVES WERE SLAUGHTERED AND MASSACRED BY THE INDIAN ARMY AND LOCAL KASHMIRIS. While the operation was tactically opposed by Col Mahdi of SSG.

Badly lost 1971 yet again due to poor planning. Not only that, but wrecked up the Bengali civilians pretty bad.

Lost Siachaen
Lost Kargil

Moral corruption:

Officers were literally swapping wives or presenting their wives to higher-ups for promotions during 1950s-1970s, god knows till when. As mentioned in Humood Ur Rehman Commission.

Most of the higher-ups are Sharabis but not only them, but ISSB is designed to select psycho bullies who start messing around pretty young.

You know what are they? They're the contemporaries of East India Company. Yet still under the command of their western gods, suppressing the local population.

 

[AlKardai]

Most of the higher-ups are Sharabis but not only them, but ISSB is designed to select psycho bullies who start messing around pretty young.

You know what are they? They're the contemporaries of East India Company. Yet still under the command of their western gods, suppressing the local population.

and that is exactly why I gave up on that dream

 

[Big Tank]

and that is exactly why I gave up on that dream

Always thought of Army for my son. But nah thanks, don't wanna see him turn from a great kid into psychopath bullying morron in PMA.

 

[AlKardai]

Always thought of Army for my son. But nah thanks, don't wanna see him turn from a great kid into psychopath bullying morron in PMA.

It's the sacrifice of a dream that needs to be made. Very difficult for some, so I commend your rationality and resolve, as I went through the same.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

LOOOOOOOOLLL

NO.

Pakistan Army is not a contemporary of Janisaries. Judging you on your comparison, you've read very less about Janisaries.

They were subordinates of the Sultan and maintained dominance under the Military wing. No matter what, they remained loyal to the Sultan, won them a lot of battles like no one else, fought till the end.

And here we've the Pakistan Army. Got some Kashmir in 1948 with the help of Tribals who ended up looting/raping Kashmiris themselves.

Were about to lose Lahore in 65 after a TACTICALLY POOR OPERATION GIBRALTAR WHERE SSG OPERATIVES WERE SLAUGHTERED AND MASSACRED BY THE INDIAN ARMY AND LOCAL KASHMIRIS. While the operation was tactically opposed by Col Mahdi of SSG.

Badly lost 1971 yet again due to poor planning. Not only that, but wrecked up the Bengali civilians pretty bad.

Lost Siachaen
Lost Kargil

Moral corruption:

Officers were literally swapping wives or presenting their wives to higher-ups for promotions during 1950s-1970s, god knows till when. As mentioned in Humood Ur Rehman Commission.

Most of the higher-ups are Sharabis but not only them, but ISSB is designed to select psycho bullies who start messing around pretty young.

You know what are they? They're the contemporaries of East India Company. Yet still under the command of their western gods, suppressing the local population.

I think you missed my thesis completely.

The point I was making is that Pakistani Army is like the Jaanissaries at the tail end of their existence, when they completely corrupted. Read the excerpt from WIKI I posted. I also stated that the Jaanissaries could speak of the great accomplishments they conducted in their earlier years of formation, but in our case we cannot even make that argument. So I think we are saying the same thing.
My thoughts are primarily that Jaanissaries at their end of influence had corrupted and did exactly what our mil establishment is doing. And that in the end the Khalifah of the time had to take some drastic measures in order to save the nation from the group.
BTW I have read a lot on the Jaanissaries. In the early years of their formation they were a true and formidable force but with time they corrupted as they began to understand and then over-estimate their own importance. When that happened and in the tail end they were a disaster for the Ottomans and caused havoc in the court and power circles, with palace coups etc. It was a disaster for the Ottomans. And as they JSN became more powerful they lost their ability as a fighting force. Eventually they were brutally put down by the Khalifah of the time.

 

[villageidiot]

I believe that if we are to understand the current structure and functioning of the Pakistani Military establishment a good analogy is to study the Jaanissaries of the Ottomans. Though the JNS were essential in helping the Ottoman's build an empire they eventually starting killing the nation state or the hand that fed them. In our case our military accomplishments are less glorious and yet we find our military structure operate in the manner that the Jaanissaries did at the tail end of this influence. In the end the Khalifah of the time had to crush them for the state to survive.
Here is an interesting excerpt from Wiki - the analogy is scary.

"As Janissaries became aware of their own importance, they began to desire a better life. By the early 17th century Janissaries had such prestige and influence that they dominated the government. They could mutiny, dictate policy, and hinder efforts to modernize the army structure. Additionally, the Janissaries found they could change Sultans as they wished through palace coups. They made themselves landholders and tradesmen. They would also limit the enlistment to the sons of former Janissaries who did not have to go through the original training period in the acemi oğlan, as well as avoiding the physical selection, thereby reducing their military value. When Janissaries could practically extort money from the Sultan and business and family life replaced martial fervour, their effectiveness as combat troops decreased. The northern borders of the Ottoman Empire slowly began to shrink southwards after the second Battle of Vienna in 1683.[citation needed]"

Very accurate. The similarities are striking to say the least. I am surprised none of us connected the dots before.

 

[Baburfromsarmarkand]

Jannasaries won wars lol. You cant compare the best fighting force in the world to us. They literally make the Ottomans unstoppable.
Yes, when they were allowed to marry, and it became more of a clan, where their children were secure in the order, there began to be problems.

But their good far far outweighed the bad, given the historical record. The corruption only started seeping in when the Ottomans had weak sultans and were already the sick man of Europe.

 

[villageidiot]

and that is exactly why I gave up on that dream

Bro, what changed for you and when exactly? I remember you were very passionate about it until a while ago.

 

[R2D2]

The Chahalgani slaves or the Forty liberated slave Chieftains played a similar political role in the slave dynasty in India. Some measures were taken by the Sultan like banning inter-marriages between their families, parties etc.

 

[Azadkashmir]

pakistan army face towards where ever the dollar is thrown. pak army is mercenary east india company army, disguised as angel sent by allah to bring khalifat state to the masses.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

Jannasaries won wars lol. You cant compare the best fighting force in the world to us. They literally make the Ottomans unstoppable.
Yes, when they were allowed to marry, and it became more of a clan, where their children were secure in the order, there began to be problems.

But their good far far outweighed the bad, given the historical record. The corruption only started seeping in when the Ottomans had weak sultans and were already the sick man of Europe.

Oh Bhai - I am surprised at the inability for people to find similarities.
There is never an exacting reference or unanimity of facts.

The similarity is when power is centralized - it corrupts. The JNS became powerful. They were armed. They took that power and became like the DHA Mafia and corrupted. The similarities are shocking - they started taking a bigger share of money, land, special privileges. They over time became a less effective fighting unit. They built their own life and world of living for themselves and their kin.

The dis-similarities are starck too. JNS were great warriors and the spear point for the Ottomans in the earlier years.

With time they became a burden on the state. And eventually were brutally crushed. Note the unit was disbanded and their leadership was crushed. This happened in the 17th century before the empire truly went sliding down.

 

[Imran Khan]

Well ISI is hashasheens like gang for sure