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Ataturk's Legacy vs Caliphate and implications for Pakistan

Myth buster can you tell me what you doing in USA? Just thinking what I said before criticizing.

Exactly having fun rolling in dollars in the supposed enemies house and then proclaiming caliphate from there.If he was so devout why go to infidel lands to earn a living?hypocrisy.
 
Liberal fascists

No Headscarf in Turkish uni? WTF? almost everyone Muslim i see in my college (USA) has a headscarf! and meanwhile in Turkey the so called muslim country deprives its women from their right to dress the way they want.
the true about islam part 3 the true about kemal ataturk - YouTube

That was my university. From 2010 or so, women started to enter Universities with headscarves. Thats not an issue anymore. Our ministry of religion has 2.2 billion USD budget, which is higher than most ministries.

As I said, M. Kemal led Turkish forces against enemy and won. He was a general, not an imam nor prophet. His statesmanship may be poor, it doesnt lower his military skill.
 
That may have been the case for some of the Ummayads and Abbasids, but we do not use them as our examples. The example of what the Caliphate should model itself on is the Khulafah Rashidun - under the Sahabbas. They were far from the "incompetent drunkard, womanizing mass-murderers". Secondly, the "Caliph" - i.e. leader - is only part of the actual issue, Islam is an entire system. Yes, the Caliph may be corrupt, but as long as the governing institutions - such as military, judiciary, etc - are following Shariah, then the overall system is legitimate.

As bad as the previous Caliphs were, there is no doubt that Muslims were generally not backward fools. In fact, it was in the period of the Caliphate that the Muslim world gave birth to its finest scholars and judges (men and women alike). It was when the intellectual understanding of Islam decreased, that the ability to do proper Ijtehad failed and thus the lag of rulings vis-a-vis the ever-changing reality.

That doesn't make sense. Shariah law conflicted with many of the Arabian tribal customs and beliefs, so how can it be from it? Shariah clearly has a different precedence.

Hi,

Reminds me of the saying " heads I win---tails you lose"---.
 
Hi,

Reminds me of the saying " heads I win---tails you lose"---.
My original point still stands, but I'll add.

The Muslim leaders of today have their heads up their rears, so why are we letting them lead us to ruin? Look at Pakistan, just look at the reality of how Nawaz Sharif came to power, why didn't anyone ask as to why he was even allowed to run? Or for that matter, the MQM, or the NRO idiots, etc. Or even the fact that despite our own citizens being slaughtered by drones that Zardari ruled Pakistan as though he were its legitimate leader...

It's time to steer ourselves to the right course, it's time for Qur'an, the Sunnah, the Ijmaa' of Sahaba and Qiyas, but enough of the garbage that is holding us back today.
 
Exactly having fun rolling in dollars in the supposed enemies house and then proclaiming caliphate from there.If he was so devout why go to infidel lands to earn a living?hypocrisy.

Let me know if islam does not allow this and I will move
 
My original point still stands, but I'll add.

The Muslim leaders of today have their heads up their rears, so why are we letting them lead us to ruin? Look at Pakistan, just look at the reality of how Nawaz Sharif came to power, why didn't anyone ask as to why he was even allowed to run? Or for that matter, the MQM, or the NRO idiots, etc. Or even the fact that despite our own citizens being slaughtered by drones that Zardari ruled Pakistan as though he were its legitimate leader...

It's time to steer ourselves to the right course, it's time for Qur'an, the Sunnah, the Ijmaa' of Sahaba and Qiyas, but enough of the garbage that is holding us back today.

Hi,

I agree with your first para----but not with your second para----you are justt writing it because you don't know of any other way of salvation----qura'an and sharia is all you have to fall on---and it is not going to work---because just like all other pakistanis---you are alsoe clueless as to where to start.

And I don't blame you for that---but in order for you to follow the qura'an and shariah---you have to bring in a few changes first---that of character. You may choose to read the qura'an a million times and recite it and memorize it and knwo it front and back in and out----but if you don't have any character and understanding of what it needs to be a nation---you ain't gettingnowhere.

You see----pakistanis have no character---without it---qura'an is meaningless---and shariah has no head or tail---all are lost where to start---.

When a nation will come out and murder minorities for a so called defaming the prophet or the qura'an but no one will seek revenge for the victims of GANG RAPES AND CHILD MOLESTATIONS---that nation is totally condemned.

The drones are coming because you the pakistanbis did not protect the integrity of your lands----you let the foreign criminals of al qaeda seek refuge in your lands----if you pakistanis had any character and if you had an iota of respect for the green and white flag---you would have taken out Osama Bin Laden at tora bora alongwith his cohorts.

It is not what america is doing----it is because you did not do enough to stand up to protect the sanctity of your motherland----. You did not kill enough of them---the al qaedas---when they were entering your land----. Your analysis and strategy failed how to tackle your "islamic brothers" failed---you said that they would not turn on your----they slaughtered you---you said that they would die with the enemy----but then you also became the enemy and they were as ruthless on you as they were to anyone else---they burnt and destroyed the enemy----and that included you---.

When they were down and they weak---they asked for peace to regroup---and you fell for the ruse everytime---. When it was time for the natipn to stand together behind the STATE AND THE DECISIONS THAT THE STATE TOOK---every pakistani citizen had an analogy of his own---rather than the state deal with the issue---ever pakistani decided to deal it on his own---.

A house that does not stand together in times of distress---that house crumbles down----. It has been 12 years since the war in afg---and paks are still clueless as to what they are stuck with,
 
Hi,

I agree with your first para----but not with your second para----you are justt writing it because you don't know of any other way of salvation----qura'an and sharia is all you have to fall on---and it is not going to work---because just like all other pakistanis---you are alsoe clueless as to where to start.

And I don't blame you for that---but in order for you to follow the qura'an and shariah---you have to bring in a few changes first---that of character. You may choose to read the qura'an a million times and recite it and memorize it and knwo it front and back in and out----but if you don't have any character and understanding of what it needs to be a nation---you ain't gettingnowhere.

You see----pakistanis have no character---without it---qura'an is meaningless---and shariah has no head or tail---all are lost where to start---.

When a nation will come out and murder minorities for a so called defaming the prophet or the qura'an but no one will seek revenge for the victims of GANG RAPES AND CHILD MOLESTATIONS---that nation is totally condemned.

The drones are coming because you the pakistanbis did not protect the integrity of your lands----you let the foreign criminals of al qaeda seek refuge in your lands----if you pakistanis had any character and if you had an iota of respect for the green and white flag---you would have taken out Osama Bin Laden at tora bora alongwith his cohorts.

It is not what america is doing----it is because you did not do enough to stand up to protect the sanctity of your motherland----. You did not kill enough of them---the al qaedas---when they were entering your land----. Your analysis and strategy failed how to tackle your "islamic brothers" failed---you said that they would not turn on your----they slaughtered you---you said that they would die with the enemy----but then you also became the enemy and they were as ruthless on you as they were to anyone else---they burnt and destroyed the enemy----and that included you---.

When they were down and they weak---they asked for peace to regroup---and you fell for the ruse everytime---. When it was time for the natipn to stand together behind the STATE AND THE DECISIONS THAT THE STATE TOOK---every pakistani citizen had an analogy of his own---rather than the state deal with the issue---ever pakistani decided to deal it on his own---.

A house that does not stand together in times of distress---that house crumbles down----. It has been 12 years since the war in afg---and paks are still clueless as to what they are stuck with,

about TTP and al-qaeda turning on us, we should not forget what dear musharraf did, he killed these people when america ordered him to do so, did he not think that they will retaliate? US said go and attack them and he did, without considering the consequences, you think if i slap you will you not slap me back?
 
You ignorant fool---don't you get it by now---Dear Musharraf did not kill enough of them when the time was right---because you the citizen were on his case all the time.

The quote at the bottom of your post tells the frame of your mind----you are as clueless as anyone----. All these sob stories about 'parwaz mein kotahi'----.

My child---it is not a matter of you vs me---it is a matter of state vs insurgents----the state can literally wipe out any insurgency---only if its citizens have ballz---. It is not a matter of exchanging slaps----but if that is what your state of understanding this issue is---then I am right in what I have stated.
 
Turkey, Pakistan and Secularism

As the Turkish Supreme Court prepares to decide on a petition to ban AKP, the ruling party in Turkey, is it reasonable to compare the secular zeal in Turkey with the religious zeal in Pakistan? It probably is. However, the situation in Pakistan is the mirror image of that in Turkey. Just as the religious orthodoxy in Pakistan is strong but limited to a small but vocal, radical minority of Pakistanis, it seems that the secular orthodoxy in Turkey is just as powerful but shared by a small, radical and vociferous minority of Turks.

While Turkish military and the Ataturk Thought Association act as zealous guardians of the secular creed that guides Turkey, the majority of the Turks have long been voting for AKP party, and its predecessors, with "Islamist" leanings. I am using the word "Islamist" rather loosely here, because AKP would be considered a very moderate middle-of-the-road party, like the Muslim League, in a country like Pakistan.

The Wall Street Journal reports that Ataturk's Thought Association's chairman, a retired four-star general, is now in jail. Its offices -- plastered with portraits of modern Turkey's founding father, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk -- have been raided by police. Several of its computer hard drives have been seized by investigators. They're hunting for evidence of plots by hard-line secularists to topple Turkey's mildly Islamic government, according to the Journal.

The hard core secularists in Turkey have been concerned about the demise of Ataturk's legacy almost since he died 70 years ago. A relentless modernizer, big drinker and fan of the fox trot, Mustapha Kemal Pasha, the father of the Turkish Republic had issues with Islam. He closed Islamic schools, banned Islamic dress and opened a German brewery in his new capital, Ankara. It was obviously not the path of least resistance in a country that is 99% Muslim, once ruled Mecca and was for centuries home to the Islamic Caliphate. Yet Ataturk's legacy prevailed for decades.

Pakistan's founder, Quaid-e-Azam Mohamed Ali Jinnah, was also of secular persuasion. However, he was not hostile to religion. His idea of secularism was very different from that of the Ataturk.

While Ataturk subordinated Islam under the state, Quaid-e-Azam believed in separation of state and religion. Here is an excerpt from Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah's most important speech laying out his vision for Pakistan: "You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State." Quaid-e-Azam M.A. Jinnah in address to first constituent assembly, Aug 11, 1947

The Quaid-e-Azam was not just secular, he was a secular democrat who believed in freedom of religion and personal choice. For example, he never advocated either requiring or banning the wearing of the headscarf by women, which seems to be where the battle lines are drawn today between Islamists and Secularists in Turkey.

Unlike the Ataturk Thought Association and the Turkish military who are strong defenders of Ataturk's legacy in Turkey, however inflexible and flawed it may be, there has not been a similar effort in Pakistan to defend the legacy of the Quaid-e-Azam. Not only has Quaid-e-Azam's idea of separation of mosque and state been set aside, there have been active attempts by the religeous parties to hijack the national agenda and the country's constitution in favor of a theocratic state based on their extreme interpretation of the Shariah laws. The efforts of the religious parties, a minority in parliament, began with forcing the adoption of the 22-point objectives resolution just a few years after the death of Quaid-e-Azam. The religious elements completely whitewashed the vision of the father of the nation and declared Islam as the ideology of Pakistan. Fortunately, though, the recent Pakistani elections have shown that the vast majority of Pakistanis reject the extreme agenda of the religious parties in Pakistan.

For the Ataturk Thought Association, a bastion of Turkey's secularism, the key Ataturk speech is a 230-word address to Turkish youth. It warns against "malevolent people at home and abroad," and urges ceaseless struggle against any "traitors" who worm themselves into power. According to the secularists, that dark fear has taken shape in the form of the AK Party.

Ataturk's secularism is not a simple formula. Unlike America's founding fathers, who separated church and state, Ataturk did not so much separate Islam from the state as make it subservient to the state. He abolished the position of the Caliph and put all mosques and imams under a government ministry. At the same time, he purged religious influences from other state agencies.

If, as expected, the anti-Islamist Turkish constitutional court rules to ban AKP, it will not mean the end of its government. The AKP legislators will most likely reconstitute themselves into a new party by a different name that would easily win the vote of confidence in Turkish parliament. Turkey will continue to move in the direction of a moderate Muslim state with modern ideas of democracy and personal freedoms that it shares with its European neighbors. Based on the results of recent elections in Turkey, the vast majority of Turks clearly endorses this direction and rejects the Ataturk version of secularism which is incompatible with democracy.
 

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