Blast in Karachi

[StingRoy]

once US leaves afghanistan and these taliban are left with no one to fight, we will probably see more such attacks. after all then their focus will be bringing true islam in pakistan through killing of every other person following any thinking different to them.
we are still busy fighting different groups only and have left the actual ideology to prosper...

It may not be the true Islam per se... (from my knowledge), but an interpretation of Islam to suit their thinking and beliefs.

But nevertheless, their reach will be only as far as the respective govt will allow and tolerate. If you see that the whole Afghan exercise failed to give it a stable govt., then the whole purpose of this war is lost and it will magnify in a spectacular tussle for power over the region amongst its various factions. What we might see in that case will be factions of Taliban fighting over each other to prove their dominance. Unfortunately the reality may not be far from us, since US and NATO forces will start withdrawing next year.

 

[Nagraj]

So, to fight the Soviets as America's proxy Zia had to turn the whole society around to some Wahabbi--cult, eh?!

By the way, not to go off topic but by 1986 the so-called Mujahideen had almost lost the war. It was the introduction of the Stinger Missiles which bled the Soviets to a retreat.

Dozens of countries supported Pakistan with billions of dollars, weapons, diplomatic support, manpower, a security-guarantee against direct Russian attack and yet Zia comes out as hero even after he destroyed Pakistan from inside? Zia might as well as God himself beside him literally. Or am I being a 'heretic' by saying that.

Back to the topic: Even if foreign powers (India) is training/funding some of these fundos it makes no sense to blow up Mazars when they can target plenty of govt. buildings, restaurants, security posts, army depots.

There is NO ONE answer except what is evident is that the rot that started in the 80s has made Pakistan far more susceptible to such attacks and foreign co-opting of these zombies.

you are the first pakistani and probably only one who realizes the importance of stinger missiles. no one explains how they afgans who have won without support of USA

 

[T-Faz]

[URL="http://blog.dawn.com/2010/10/07/the-arrogance-of-another-ill-informed-western-tourist]Martin Seligman’s theory[/URL] of learned helplessness comes to mind, it suggests that individuals learn to feel helpless after observing other people going through uncontrollable events. The notion of feeling unable to do anything to improve their situation is unfortunately rife among people living in Pakistan today. The distress caused by these perceived uncontrollable events leads to disruption of emotion, increased aggression and impaired problem-solving, ultimately a vicious circle.

Furthermore, American sociologist Harrison White suggests that the concept of learned helplessness applies not only to individual psychology but also social function. He proposes that when a culture or its political identity fails to accomplish necessary goals, insight into that society’s collective ability also suffers....

No support from the masses, no keeping close tabs on wrongdoers by ordinary folks.

Right now many see Pakistan as their milk cow. But if Pakistan starts looking desirable once more, they will see the country as their bride.

Or they seceded entirely. Still, there are enough in the expat community to band together and make their voice heard. That isn't happening.

All the more reason to make all the noise about local injustices that you can. Why worry about Americans occasionally violating the border or distorted notions of an Israel far away when the immediate problem is at home?

Start now!


Sure. One way around this is to take an extremist position openly. That way no one can accuse you of a secret conspiracy in its cause. That could mean you end up in jail, however. Western reformers like Locke and Martin Luther had powerful protectors; John Wilkes did go to jail, but the power of the middle-class mob of Middlesex eventually carried his cause. Wilkes eventually became mayor of London.

Democracy's unquestioned advantage is its ability to throw the bums out. It's disadvantage is that it demands citizen participation. (Otherwise, the country belongs to whoever bankrolls the politicians.) It can be time-consuming, and not nearly as pleasant as wooing a powerful notable to be your best friend. Sorry, those are the breaks.

Some day, I hope.

I concur with all your points, there is much self efficacy at the moment and though its limited to the upward mobile classes, it is slowly seeping our majority poor class.

Much criticism against the establishment and its irks are presently discussed. You should know that it was rare in Pakistan for people to discuss and question our rulers in previous years, there is a lot of angst within our society much to the chagrin of the corrupt rulers.

 

[Solomon2]

You should know that it was rare in Pakistan for people to discuss and question our rulers in previous years, there is a lot of angst within our society much to the chagrin of the corrupt rulers.

And yet, there persists this thinking that the politics of setting the country aright is someone else's problem. T-Faz, you think that simply choosing a different leader is enough. I disagree. Because two very important elements of democracy are citizen participation and
selection of candidates. Simply putting your faith in a would-be leader isn't enough. You have to acknowledge your own responsibility.

 

[T-Faz]

And yet, there persists this thinking that the politics of setting the country aright is someone else's problem. T-Faz, you think that simply choosing a different leader is enough. I disagree. Because two very important elements of democracy are citizen participation and
selection of candidates. Simply putting your faith in a would-be leader isn't enough. You have to acknowledge your own responsibility.

What if the outright majority is against me and the group that I belong to. We might not be able to coerce the clear majority in knowing that the power to dictate things lies in their hand, not in the hands of the incompetent leaders.

There is a lot of complications involved in terms of ethnic background, religious affiliation and background. There is a tussle within the country involving various elements, the majority gave their support to leaders that wrecked this nation. Along the way they forget that they had the biggest hand in letting things to get so severe and blamed it all on other elements.

I acknowledge my responsibility but the majority of the people do not.

 

[Solomon2]

What if the outright majority is against me and the group that I belong to. We might not be able to coerce the clear majority in knowing that the power to dictate things lies in their hand, not in the hands of the incompetent leaders...I acknowledge my responsibility but the majority of the people do not.

Hmm. I don't want to pull a "Gandhi" here. That is, when the dilemma of the Jews of Europe was explained to Gandhi he first recommended civil disobedience. When it was pointed out to him that the Nazis were murder-minded menaces unlike the British, he then suggested the Jews commit mass suicide as an example of their moral superiority to the Nazis - and thus fulfilling the Nazis' wish themselves.

Gandhi was willing to have the Jews die for his beliefs, but he was not willing to Gandhi die for his own beliefs.

That's why you have to choose your beliefs first. Beliefs aren't words that come out of your mouth or typed into a keyboard, but what you fight for. I can't believe that Pakistanis will escape the clutches of supremacist Islam unless at least an organized minority are willing to elevate democratic principles higher than sectarian or kleptocratic ones; otherwise, no matter how much the U.S. helps, the will just won't be there.

 

[U-571]

Hmm. I don't want to pull a "Gandhi" here. That is, when the dilemma of the Jews of Europe was explained to Gandhi he first recommended civil disobedience. When it was pointed out to him that the Nazis were murder-minded menaces unlike the British, he then suggested the Jews commit mass suicide as an example of their moral superiority to the Nazis - and thus fulfilling the Nazis' wish themselves.

Gandhi was willing to have the Jews die for his beliefs, but he was not willing to Gandhi die for his own beliefs.

That's why you have to choose your beliefs first. Beliefs aren't words that come out of your mouth or typed into a keyboard, but what you fight for. I can't believe that Pakistanis will escape the clutches of supremacist Islam unless at least an organized minority are willing to elevate democratic principles higher than sectarian or kleptocratic ones; otherwise, no matter how much the U.S. helps, the will just won't be there.

US helps????, give me a break, US helps, like a snake helps its victims????, if uncle sam helps, its always for the azad balochistan or azad pashtunistan etc

 

[Tshering22]

Gandhi was willing to have the Jews die for his beliefs, but he was not willing to Gandhi die for his own beliefs.

I wonder why Jews even bothered asking Gandhi who was suicidally passive and living in a delusional world.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

these are all deobandi and ahle hadith organisations that are behind carrying these attacks against barelvi sunnis , aren't they ?

One question , what approximate percentage of pakistani muslims follow deobandi or ahle hadith school of thought ?

I read somewhere that it varies from 20 to 40 %. Can somebody with some real knowledge give a figure? i would like it if someone can give approximate figure for Indian muslims as well. One thing to note is that all islamic terror organisations that have sprung up in south asia belong to these two schools of thought which apparently a minority if muslims in south asia follow. Even dawood , abu salem and their buddies were all deobandies if i am not mistaken.

I am not in any way suggesting that all who follow these schools of thought have a terrorist mind set but still this is something worth noting.

I apologise in advance if i have broken any forum rules and caused any hurt to anyone . I am just curious.

P.S- Another thing to note is that inspite of deobandis/ahle hadis being a minority in Pakistan they have the maximum number of madrassahs in the country . Why so ? Is that a threat ?

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Hmm. I don't want to pull a "Gandhi" here. That is, when the dilemma of the Jews of Europe was explained to Gandhi he first recommended civil disobedience. When it was pointed out to him that the Nazis were murder-minded menaces unlike the British, he then suggested the Jews commit mass suicide as an example of their moral superiority to the Nazis - and thus fulfilling the Nazis' wish themselves.

Gandhi was willing to have the Jews die for his beliefs, but he was not willing to Gandhi die for his own beliefs.

That's why you have to choose your beliefs first. Beliefs aren't words that come out of your mouth or typed into a keyboard, but what you fight for. I can't believe that Pakistanis will escape the clutches of supremacist Islam unless at least an organized minority are willing to elevate democratic principles higher than sectarian or kleptocratic ones; otherwise, no matter how much the U.S. helps, the will just won't be there.

Gandhi ji said that ?

 

[Peacefull]

My family was going towards defense when the blasts went off. Thankfully they are ok but this area to be attacked like this is very concerning. Abdullah Shah Ghazi Mazaar is in a very secure and important location. Located close to it are houses of diplomats and many other powerful people of Pakistan.

Living in Clifton, we never had much problems as everything is kept under control but this is a very big attack. The shameful terrorists and their supporters within our country and outside will pay for their deeds.

Don't get me wrong this blast is targetted for only one reason and the reason being is to prove no place in Pakistan is safe, which is not true.

Let's not have any confusion about my intention to reply, it is just Iam trying to analyise why the blast in heavily guarded area.

 

[T-Faz]

Hmm. I don't want to pull a "Gandhi" here. That is, when the dilemma of the Jews of Europe was explained to Gandhi he first recommended civil disobedience. When it was pointed out to him that the Nazis were murder-minded menaces unlike the British, he then suggested the Jews commit mass suicide as an example of their moral superiority to the Nazis - and thus fulfilling the Nazis' wish themselves.

Gandhi was willing to have the Jews die for his beliefs, but he was not willing to Gandhi die for his own beliefs

It is easier said than done.

That's why you have to choose your beliefs first. Beliefs aren't words that come out of your mouth or typed into a keyboard, but what you fight for. I can't believe that Pakistanis will escape the clutches of supremacist Islam unless at least an organized minority are willing to elevate democratic principles higher than sectarian or kleptocratic ones; otherwise, no matter how much the U.S. helps, the will just won't be there.

Organized minorities did and continue to do so. They challenged the establishment and were excommunicated decades ago. Such organized communities even had laws individually produces against them and they are a part of our constitution now to keep the challenges minimum.

Like Gandhi, you want me to to be sentenced to death for some made up blasphemy allegation while you are guiding me from far away.

Btw, US supported Zia and other Islamists, not the moderates or secularists. You should always keep that in mind.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Islam is part and parcel of Pakistan... Like it or not, you cannot get rid of it... The only problem is it is being hijacked by certain very evil people, and I blame all secularists for this who spare no moment praising and singing about the west... It does nt take much to learn the basics of Islam and understand it ideologically... Islam does nt make a fool out of a person, rather teaches him/her about caring for others and being a vibrant and a visionary person... Its about time the educated and honest people of Pakistan take back control over the issues and take back Islam that has been hijacked by stupid people within our country...

 

[majesticpankaj]

Islam is part and parcel of Pakistan... Like it or not, you cannot get rid of it... The only problem is it is being hijacked by certain very evil people, and I blame all secularists for this who spare no moment praising and singing about the west... It does nt take much to learn the basics of Islam and understand it ideologically... Islam does nt make a fool out of a person, rather teaches him/her about caring for others and being a vibrant and a visionary person... Its about time the educated and honest people of Pakistan take back control over the issues and take back Islam that has been hijacked by stupid people within our country...

i thought, it is other way round.

 

[Solomon2]

Organized minorities did and continue to do so. They challenged the establishment and were excommunicated decades ago. Such organized communities even had laws individually produces against them and they are a part of our constitution now to keep the challenges minimum.

Expatriate communities can advocate change at home. With good leadership they may advocate for reform, revolution, or even foreign invasion as liberation.

Charles DeGaulle is probably the best example. It is sometimes forgotten that from the moment the Armistice with the Nazis was signed he was an outlaw (some say traitor) under the Vichy regime (which was a legal government under French law); it is not forgotten that his view that the Vichy government was illegitimate because it did not embody the spirit of France is what prevailed. Nothing showed this more clearly than the post-liberation period, when French generals who outranked him looked to him for leadership.

Like Gandhi, you want me to to be sentenced to death for some made up blasphemy allegation while you are guiding me from far away.

I want to let you know I am aware of the problem and am researching for parallels.

Here, what do you make of this?

...Is a service to the public or one's country worth one's life if it becomes necessary to give it, to accomplish the end sought? Should a man in public office see that his family and offspring are provided for even though ethics and honor have to be thrown overboard?...

Since a child at my mother's knee I have believed in honor, ethics and right living as its own reward. I find a very small minority who agree with me on that premise. For example, I picked a West Pointer, son of an honorable father...He'd sell me or anyone else he's associated with out for his own gain, but for lack of guts...

I am obligated to the Big Boss, a man of his word, but he gives it very seldom and usually on a sure thing...He, in times past, owned a bawdy house, a saloon and gambling establishment, was raised in that environment, but he's all man. I wonder who is worth more in the sight of the Lord?

I am only a small duck in a very large puddle, but I am interested very deeply in local or municipal government. Who is to blame for present conditions but sniveling church members who weep on Sunday, play with whores on Monday, drink on Tuesday, sell out to the Boss on Wendesday, repent about Friday, and start over on Sunday. I think maybe the Boss is nearer Heaven than the snivelers.

...I could have had $1,500,000. But I haven't a hundred and fifty dollars. Am I fool or an ethical giant? I don't know. The Boss in his wrath at me because his crooked contractors got no contracts...I don't care if I get honor, if the taxpayers' money goes on the ground or into the buildings it's intended for.

Those are the words of one Harry S. Truman (quoted from pp. 74-75 of his daughter's biography of him), a former artillery captain, farmer, and failed storekeeper, when he was a county "judge" (that is, an elected administrator) of a Missouri county in the 1920s. Corruption flowed all around him. Truman didn't win every election. But what the crooks (more accurately, a corruption-filled political machine) discovered was that they had to turn to Truman because he could both collect votes and get things done.

Eventually the crooks supported Truman for U.S. Senate (lest a candidate from a rival region win and the "machine" break down). Senator Truman's honesty and integrity resulted in his being drafted (very much against his will) as Vice-Presidential candidate on the 1944 ticket and, upon President Roosevelt passing away, to the presidency itself.

Truman became the greatest (and possibly most vilified) U.S. president of the twentieth century, responsible for dropping the A-bomb, the "Marshall Plan", initiating foreign technical and economic aid to Third World countries (including Pakistan), setting up NATO, stabilizing labor relations, and much more. And his old Boss? Eventually convicted and sent to jail for his crimes. Vice-President Truman made it a point to attend his funeral and ignored the smears of the media.

(If you have ever watched the great and famous movie Mr. Smith Goes to Washington the "Silver Fox" character was clearly meant to vilify Senator Truman, something obvious to everyone when it was released but nearly forgotten today. )