Copter hunt gets hotter

[SpArK]

Copter hunt gets hotter
- Race between US & Russian choppers as army, IAF weigh options​

The army and the air force are now totting up the scores in a competition between American and Russian helicopter gunships, one of which will replace the attack copters in the Indian armed forces.

The attack helicopter fleet, currently made up of ageing Soviet-origin Mi 25s and Mi 35s, is in the custody of the IAF but is meant to support land operations of the army.

The IAF will initially procure 22 attack copters — either the Boeing-made AH64 D Apache Longbow or the Mil Mi 28 (Havoc) — with the option of expanding the order to 40. The contract for the helicopters, minus the weapons and the ammunition, is expected to be upwards of $550 million.


The trials of the helicopters were held in Ladakh and Rajasthan and also in the US and Russia. Defence ministry sources said the IAF’s recommendation was being processed and a decision could be taken by the end of the month.

The twin-engine, twin-cockpit Mi 28 has a single under-nose gun and rocket pods attached to short wings. The Boeing AH64 D Apache is a four-blade, twin-engine attack helicopter that fires Hellfire missiles and has a tandem cockpit for two. Both the helicopters are heavily armoured for close combat.

Though the attack helicopter is at the combat edge of the armed forces, the bigger contract would be for 197 light-utility helicopters for both the army and the air force. The order may be expanded for 310 helicopters in this category.

This would make up the bulk of the Army Aviation Corps’ helicopter fleet — which in any case is larger than the air force’s. The Eurocopter AS 550 Fennec and the Russian Kamov Ka 226 helicopters are competing for the order. Trials for these, too, have been completed.

The helicopters in this category are meant for surveillance and observation but may also be armed for combat. They will replace the Cheetahs and Chetaks, which are of 1960s and 1970s vintage.

Defence minister A.K. Antony cancelled the competition in this category in 2008 after allegations that Eurocopter had not fielded the military version of the helicopter in the trials. At the time, Bell had also competed but it did not re-bid for the order.

The AS 550 Fennec is a single-engine machine that its makers claim has performed at such heights that it will have no problem in flying in the Siachen glacier. Its competitor, the Ka 226, is twin-engined with contra-rotating rotors (two pairs of rotors one above the other, one rotating clockwise and the other counter-clockwise) and the Russians claim this makes it safer and more stable.

The IAF is also expecting to sign a contract this year to acquire heavy-lift helicopters for which Boeing’s CH-47 Chinook and the Russian Mil Mi 26 T2 are competing. The Russian Mi 26’s claim to fame is that it can lift the Chinook. But an older version of the Mi 26 is in the IAF’s inventory — it has three of them — but a chronic shortage of spares has made it difficult to operate the machines.

Last week, suspected Taliban shot down a Chinook carrying US special forces, including 20 SEALs who were involved in the raid on Abbottabad that killed Osama bin Laden. The Chinook is used by the US forces extensively in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The IAF is looking to buy 15 heavy-lift helicopters chiefly to ferry the BAe Land Systems M777 ultra-light howitzers, which the army has nearly finalised with the US, to high-altitude posts on the frontier with China.

Army and air force officers complain that all these procurements are long overdue and decisions have been put off either because of single-vendor situations or on the suspicion of corruption. The moves to acquire the helicopters were first initiated about seven years ago.

The only major helicopter-procurement — apart from the Hindustan Aeronautics-made Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv — that the government has concluded has been for 12 Agusta Westland AW 101 machines for VVIP transport.

Copter hunt gets hotter

 

[perplexed]

Both the Longbow and Havoc looks deadly. I won't like to stand in-front of them.

Also, the Russian Heavy lifter is huge. I hope it is not maintenance intensive.

 

[Rakshak]

The Longbow looks sexy

 

[hawx]

any sanctions on american hardware ? or they are selling with no strings attached ?

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

^^^Certain components will have to be Indian or Israeli(CISMOA).
The most important heli for us in the current situation is the AS 550 Fennec as the Alouettes are too old and we see them perform every day in Siachen and throughout the country!I hope that the Fennec is selected soon and inducted.

 

[Veeru]

These deals should be finished by this year, raise it to 45 attack choppers + 45-60 heavy lift.

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

45 would be no good!.The Army will get more than a Hundred LCH's so at least 63 Longbow's are required(3 squadrons) for IAF!

 

[angeldemon_007]

IA has a requirement for upto 60 Heavy attack choppers but they have no clearance. IAF wants choppers for itself while the real user is army. Light reconnaissance choppers will go to IA aviation wing but no other. IA is trying hard to get all the above categories of choppers in its aviation wing but IAF is not letting them. IA's operational capability will increase to a great level if they will purchase 300-400 transport choppers are also as they already are getting alot of LUHs and they even have ordered alot of Dhruv and LCH. Now what they really need is a good number of transport choppers considering the size of IA.

I also think that if IA is not allowed to purchase heavy attack helicopters as per their requirement then they should increase the number of LCH which as per HAL might go upto 200-250. It is because IA will need attack choppers for its armored regiments and also for mountain divisions for which LCH is made so that it can go upto high altitude bases.

 

[truthseeker2010]

The combat heli would be Apache, The heavy lifter would be Chinook and in the light category it might go to russians because eurocopter tender was cancelled, or it might end up with HAL ALH.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The combat heli would be Apache, The heavy lifter would be Chinook and in the light category it might go to russians because eurocopter tender was cancelled, or it might end up with HAL ALH.

HAL ALH isn't in the competition as it is in the medium category this tender is for light utility helos. I would like to see (and expect) the entire left-hand side of the table to be selected for IAF/IA. And regarding the IA's AAC yes it could do with more such as heavy attack and lift helos but that is a possibility down the line. The AAC is in the process of expanding dramatically- a few Chetaks and Cheetahs since the 1980s, when AAC was created, to 150+ LCH attack helos 100+ ALH and 150+ LUH, this is a dramatic boost in capabilities so further down the line heavy attack and lift are very much likely.

 

[OrionHunter]

any sanctions on american hardware ? or they are selling with no strings attached ?

That's the problem with American equipment. End user agreements, spares that can be blocked at the whims and fancies of the U.S., Communication packages which they will not provide and so on! There are too many strings attached.

Do we trust the Americans that they won't cut off technology and spares like they did for ISRO and HAL (Tejas) after we exploded those nukes?

 

[INDIAISM]

The only major helicopter-procurement — apart from the Hindustan Aeronautics-made Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv — that the government has concluded has been for 12 Agusta Westland AW 101 machines for VVIP transport.

why i am not surprised....Neta's and Babu's always look after their luxury first....who cares about the jawans...

 

[sancho]

The combat heli would be Apache, The heavy lifter would be Chinook and in the light category it might go to russians because eurocopter tender was cancelled, or it might end up with HAL ALH.

HAL is developing an LUH and will replace half of the older Cheetha and Cheetak helicopters, while the LUH competition is meant for the other half. The Fennec won the initial competition, but US companies complained and it was restarted. However, it is still the favourite and I guess it's just about the price and possibly a common engine for Fennec and HALs LUH.

 

[angeldemon_007]

The combat heli would be Apache, The heavy lifter would be Chinook and in the light category it might go to russians because eurocopter tender was cancelled, or it might end up with HAL ALH.

Heavy category might go to Mi26 as it can carry more load and IAF has experience operating it. Attack will go to Apache and LUH will go to Eurocopter. Everyone is happy. Russians have already an order of 130-140 Mi17 V5. As far as hal is concerned they have a separate program for LUH but it will be ready by 2014 and then the production rate won't even be too high while IA wants these choppers quickly so they will go on and select one between Kamov and fennec.

HAL ALH isn't in the competition as it is in the medium category this tender is for light utility helos. I would like to see (and expect) the entire left-hand side of the table to be selected for IAF/IA. And regarding the IA's AAC yes it could do with more such as heavy attack and lift helos but that is a possibility down the line. The AAC is in the process of expanding dramatically- a few Chetaks and Cheetahs since the 1980s, when AAC was created, to 150+ LCH attack helos 100+ ALH and 150+ LUH, this is a dramatic boost in capabilities so further down the line heavy attack and lift are very much likely.

HAL has its own LUH program. ALH Dhruv was a different program. IA and IAF has already decided how much they will purchase. So in all there are 2 programs for LUH. IA and IAF wants quick supply of few and hence they will be purchasing 197 from a foreign vendor while HAL will carry on its project which is likely to get ready by 2014 and since production is also not high it will take till 2020 for all HAL LUH to get in service. Also there is a possiblity that IA and IAF don't wanna wait for HAL because guys lets face it HAL don't have a great record and Chetak are getting way too old, they might increase this number of 197 to 300 +.

There are two projects :
1) 197 LUH to be purchased directly from the vendor (IAF : 64 ,IA : 133)
2) 187 LUH/LOH from HAL (IAF: 61,IA : 126)

Total = 384 LUH (IAF : 125,IA : 259)

So Total helicopters for IA aviation wing:
1) 259 LUH
2) 159 Dhruv
3) 114 LCH

 

[Abingdonboy]

Any idea when these deals will actually get signed? IAF ACM in Feb 2011 before AI 11 that the deal would be signed within the next month- it is now AUGUST 2011!!! and any word on the Mil-17V that was supposed to be delivered "early in 2011"?!!