Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Vergennes]

Wow......France has a new carrier model? @Vergennes , you never told me that.
We can share our carriers together in future. You people need for a new expensive one. Afterall, what are allies for?

On a serious note though, jokes aside, it looks quite advanced with some new features. What's the estimated cost and is it exclusively for expot or France is looking to build one for its own navy?

Thinking about it, I believe we should offer a QE version for export(with some new features). I am sure it might also get some order/interest.

If I remember,we were working with the brits on the Queen Elizabeth project,and were looking at a CATOBAR and nuclear powered version,but was delayed by Sarkozy's government because of budgetary constraints and finally scrapped by this government.
-
The recent multiplication of operations,the need to project power and the major retrofit of the Charles de Gaulle in 2017,leaving us with no carrier strike group projection,raised the question for another aircraft carrier,for the need to have one permanently at sea when the other is undergoing major retrofit or isn't available.
It would be interesting to follow what are the candidates' proposals on defence and if they are going to launch studies and why not the construction of a second aircraft carrier.

 

[mike2000 is back]

If I remember,we were working with the brits on the Queen Elizabeth project,and were looking at a CATOBAR and nuclear powered version,but was delayed by Sarkozy's government because of budgetary constraints and finally scrapped by this government.
-
The recent multiplication of operations,the need to project power and the major retrofit of the Charles de Gaulle in 2017,leaving us with no carrier strike group projection,raised the question for another aircraft carrier,for the need to have one permanently at sea when the other is undergoing major retrofit or isn't available.
It would be interesting to follow what are the candidates' proposals on defence and if they are going to launch studies and why not the construction of a second aircraft carrier.

European powers and budget constraints excuses.

How is it that Britain and France who have about 3 times Russia's GDP and far higher living standards for example still can't spend on their military anywhere near Russia?

It's because of too much public scrutiny and need for spending on social programs/welfare/healthcare etc. These people don't know that a country also has to maintain a credible deterrent and a country should never neglect it defence/Interests.

I believe if there's a will we can build more than 2 carriers. It's more than affordable for Britain and France. Reasons for not doing so is more political(internal), bureaucracy, and lack of long-term strategic thinking. We could very well offer a lighter version with new features like catabor, nuclear powered. Covers cost. However, politicians/public don't think that way very often. .

If France had used budget reasons citing huge investments/costs required for not building for example it's barracuda subs or Rafale fighter jets etc, think you will be reaping the fruits of all the orders you are getting today?
Same for Britain with say BAE hawks, frigates, Howitzers etc

 

[Blue Marlin]

Sorry guys , off topic, but I have always wondered, since MBDA is mainly a British(37. 5%)-French/German(37. 5%) Italian(25%) company. So when such sales happen , each country get a share of the revenue/cash? Since I suppose they all have an input in building these advance missiles.

Seems you people are slowly moving away from Overeliance on Russian weapon systems. Which I think is good, since its always a good idea to diversify your sources.
Is anything wrong with the Russian Mig-29ks though? I thought it's a fairly good naval fighter?

yes mbda is an european company owned by several companies from differant countries.

but certain missiles are made for certain countries . like the mica for france, and the asraam for the uk.
the germans are the worst. there like the fat greedy kid. when they wanted to develop the iris-t, they went to a german company entirely and out sourced the parts as a risk reducing measure to non traditional partners such as norway and canada and sweden, even greece!

also who has a 39% stake in the meteor missile?........thats right us lot so technically we have a say in the sale of the meteor. and our stake is larger than the next two largest stake holders combined

 

[Vergennes]

@mike2000 is back

Maybe because Russia didn't have high deficits,a skyrocketing debt,very high public spendings,weak growth,other priorities and so on.

 

[Blue Marlin]

A further expansion of an already very diverse performance envelope.
The Indian Rafale with all of these customisations will surely help (maybe not so much in the Mid East ) the Rafale's export potential.

how is this relevant to my original post? did i miss something?
the only arab country thats in the market for fighter jets is the uae and yes they have their eyes on the rafale but are holding of til after the french elections and thats some time away. and do note there not exactly begging to buy it. they wanted the m88 with more thrust from 7.5 tonnes to 9 tonnes.
thats a big problem, so much so in the commercial field emirates canceled 70 a350's because they would not promise the thrust range would be to their need. and Boeing tailored the 77x to be more powerful to suit their needs. mind you the obama administration is clearing sales of f18 to kuwait, f15's to qatar and f16's to the uae as well as upgrades.

 

[BON PLAN]

Agreed, It is much better than PLAAF's Python variants or PAF's AIM-120C AMRAAM.

[/QUOTE]

Python is a short range missile. Isn't the Derby ?

Why we need scalp,the proposed air launched brahmos and brahmos mini have also same range. How scalp can outperform brahmos?
@Abingdonboy @Picdelamirand-oil

a question of accuracy.
And a broach warhed, very very impressive against hardened bunker.

 

[mike2000 is back]

yes mbda is an european company owned by several companies from differant countries.

but certain missiles are made for certain countries . like the mica for france, and the asraam for the uk.
the germans are the worst. there like the fat greedy kid. when they wanted to develop the iris-t, they went to a german company entirely and out sourced the parts as a risk reducing measure to non traditional partners such as norway and canada and sweden, even greece!

also who has a 39% stake in the meteor missile?........thats right us lot so technically we have a say in the sale of the meteor. and our stake is larger than the next two largest stake holders combined

Obviously, I'm aware. Once you have Germany in any joint project, then brace yourself for trouble. They did the same thing with the Typhoon after we brought them in.they threatened several times to leave during its development and later reduce their orders by still wanted to have the same share like Britain. How is that fair? We only have in to their demands because we had weak negotiators back then, and we didn't want the project to stall/get into trouble or be cancelled.
Even today most of the upgrades is carried out almost solely by Britain, and we are the ones pushing it forward in every field. The Germans are content with the tranche 2 they have and don't want to be bothered investing/ordering any tranche 3 . I really think we should have gone solo on the Typhoon(after France pulled out). Inviting Germany was the worse mistake we ever made(even Italy or Spain are far better).

Anyway , I'm sure we have learn our lessons. They are the greedy fat kid like you said. We should avoid them in any future projects like a pest.

@mike2000 is back

Maybe because Russia didn't have high deficits,a skyrocketing debt,very high public spendings,weak growth,other priorities and so on.

Not really. Russia's economy has been in a terrible state this past years. In fact it's economy contracted almost 3.7% last year, barely grew the year before that(0.5%) and this year it's expected to contract by about 1%. They are also slashing their pubic expenditure due to financial constraints(low oil prices on which they depend).

. https://www.ft.com/content/e16a0118-b940-11e5-b151-8e15c9a029fb

Despite all this , they have increase their defence budget. Our economy by contrast has been growing over 2.1% on average this past years. Yet our defence budget hasn't changed/increased significantly. So go figure.

 

[BON PLAN]

Profits are shared, production is not.

For example, 80% of the production will go into Italian industries for the Kuwaiti Typhoons.

Are you sure for production? I'm not.
The Typhoons are made by Eurofighter Gmbh. This consortium is hold by GB and Deutchland (33% each), Italy (21%) and Spain (13%). I think the work share are in due proportion of stakes, and doesn't change depending to customer.

 

[BON PLAN]

Towards a new Indian aircraft carrier catapults
Construction of sister ship Vikrant, first introduced as a carrier air defense, was abandoned in favor of a more ambitious project on a building designed to conduct power projection operations. Known Vishal, the third Indian aircraft carrier will be greater than his older and probably catobar type, that is to say with catapults and shutdown strands. To carry out this new project, New Delhi plans to cooperate with a foreign manufacturer who has expertise in aircraft carrier. This is where DCNS, the only company in the world to have studied a new design of aircraft carriers, DEAC, to meet those needs.


DCNS offers designer
Long 272 meters for a displacement of 52,000 tons over, DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier (DEAC) has everything to be the basis for discussions. It is a carrier of new generation compact, designed to enable the country who has achieve similar power projection operations to those that can lead the Navy with the Charles de Gaulle. To this end, the French engineers have increased the maximum aeronautical capabilities of the platform. This offers a flight deck area of 13,500 m² and two catapults of 90 meters allowing the implementation of heavier aircraft. The flow of materials and ammunition, as well as refueling and maneuvering aircraft on the flight deck and the hangar to have been optimized to facilitate flight operations and allow 75 day trips. With two lifts 36 tonnes, the DEAC incorporates oblique track with three strands stop and emergency barrier. It can implement some forty aircraft and is manned by 900 crew members, the capacity can go up to 1770 people with the staff of Air Group and Staff.

Capable of carrying 400 tons of ammunition and 8,400 tons of fuel, DEAC has a substantial autonomy or 8000 miles at 20 knots. Capable of reaching a top speed of 28 knots, it is available with different types of powered two rows of trees, including CODLAG (Combined diesel-electric and gas) or COGAG (Combined gas turbine and gas turbine).

DEAC (© DCNS)



Several countries consulted but big advantages for French
Discussions have therefore begun to consider a Franco-Indian cooperation, DCNS hoping to capitalize on the good progress of Indian submarines of the Scorpene-type program, made in Technology Transfer in Mumbai and the first of which, the Kalvari, to be delivered in 2017.

Obviously, the Indians consult other country but France, with the tandem DEAC / Rafale, offers a safe and optimal solution to meet Indian needs. In terms of capacity, know-how and technology, Russians, Britons and Italians can not compete, due among other things they have no recent experience of aircraft carrier catapults. As for the Americans, their aircraft carriers are too big and expensive. France also has the advantage, not negligible, to give customers all the keys allowing them to use the equipment as they see fit, which is crucial in terms of freedom of action and sovereignty.

(© HESJA)

http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/rafale-et-maintenant-la-marine-indienne

+++

Check this out.. now read and recall what i have always said..

• ACC help by DCNS .. i used the term - will be a consultant..
• Rafale M for STOBAR
• Rafale M stobar ops no compromise in A2A with limited capability downgrade for A2G
• MII for IAF+IN - a huge fleet

Enjoy !!

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others

CHINA studies a CATOBAR version of J15 Flying Shark ....

For these tests, China uses two land tracks with catapults.
According to several sources, one uses a steam catapult while the other would have an electromagnetic system (EMALS)...

 

[randomradio]

Are you sure for production? I'm not.
The Typhoons are made by Eurofighter Gmbh. This consortium is hold by GB and Deutchland (33% each), Italy (21%) and Spain (13%). I think the work share are in due proportion of stakes, and doesn't change depending to customer.

The parts are made everywhere, but the final integration and assembly will happen in Italy. So a larger portion of the work will go to Italy, while other countries will get subcontracted work.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Obviously, I'm aware. Once you have Germany in any joint project, then brace yourself for trouble. They did the same thing with the Typhoon after we brought them in.they threatened several times to leave during its development and later reduce their orders by still wanted to have the same share like Britain. How is that fair? We only have in to their demands because we had weak negotiators back then, and we didn't want the project to stall/get into trouble or be cancelled.
Even today most of the upgrades is carried out almost solely by Britain, and we are the ones pushing it forward in every field. The Germans are content with the tranche 2 they have and don't want to be bothered investing/ordering any tranche 3 . I really think we should have gone solo on the Typhoon(after France pulled out). Inviting Germany was the worse mistake we ever made(even Italy or Spain are far better).

Anyway , I'm sure we have learn our lessons. They are the greedy fat kid like you said. We should avoid them in any future projects like a pest.


.

indeed. do you want so potentially bad news, its gonna happen again (possibly).
as you know we have our taranis ucav program and the french have signed a deal to kind of merge our program with their neuron program. sounds good right? but the neuron program already has other eu partners. spain, sweden, italy and greece of all countries. the germans are not involved in the project. so its very likely this can be a european joint project minus the germans. i think they (germany) are going for the euro hawk but thats not a ucav but more for installing sensors on for communications and surveillance.
ok so no germans so we have the:
spanairds,
italians
swedes
and the greeks
i think greeks will drop out due to money problems. spain is a issue as well as they wont buy alot of them and are financially and economically weak. italy has more promise as they have a large aerospace industry and are doing a bit better and need them (spain) due to its location on the med. the swedes just want to get their hands in a big project and remain relevant after the mess up they did on the tfx and their eventual failure for the gripen in india and potentially brazil.

 

[[Bregs]]

Rafale jets deal will do little to arrest the free fall in IAF’s strength

Initial euphoria over the culmination of a Euro 7.8-billion agreement for 36 Rafale fighter planes has given way to accusations that India has inked an expensive deal that falls short of meeting the expectations of its air force.

Back in 2001, the Indian Air Force (IAF) sought at least 126 jets to replace ageing Soviet-era planes. Today, as a political dog fight unfolds over Rafale jets, the Congress says the 36 fighters are not enough to check the erosion of the IAF’s strength.

The party has warned of a looming crisis in the IAF, whose fighter fleet has shrunk to 33 squadrons compared to a desirable 45 to respond to a joint threat from China and Pakistan.

Strategic affairs expert Air Vice Marshal Kapil Kak (retd) says the IAF needs to induct up to 90 more Rafale-like jets on an emergency basis. “There’s no turning away from that reality,” he adds.
Shortage of fighter planes is not the only concern.

Read | India needs more than Rafale to match China: Defence experts

Gaps in mid-air refuelling capability, shortage of advanced warning platforms, high number of jets under maintenance and upgrading air defence systems are some other challenges lying ahead of the world’s fourth largest air force.

IAF spokesperson Wing Commander Anupam Banerjee says the air force has plans in place to effectively utilise the available aerial platforms and weapon systems. “Any shortcoming will be made good in a short period of time to further enhance our capability,” he points out, adding all international air forces had a mix of modern and ageing aircraft.

Then, there are issues with the IAF’s ageing utility helicopter fleet. The IAF finds itself stretched due to shortage of heavy-lift and attack choppers — and its transport capability needs to be enhanced swiftly.

“India’s neighbours, especially China, have pressed the accelerator on modernising their air forces,” warns former IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Major. “The capability gaps will keep increasing if we don’t hasten things up.”

A $2-billion deal to buy midair refuellers to expand the IAF’s strategic reach is stuck, as India and Airbus have not agreed on the price. “The tankers are required urgently if we have to stay prepared to counter China in the eastern sector,” a senior IAF officer points out on the condition of anonymity. “The deal has dragged on for over seven years.”

The air force needs to ramp up its airborne surveillance capability to detect enemy planes and missiles. It has only three AWACS (airborne warning and control system) aircraft, though the requirement is higher.

Read | Rafale triggers political dogfight, Cong wants contract to be made public

The numbers are not enough if China and Pakistan pose a collusive threat. “The capability will play a significant role in terms of covering the eastern and western fronts during offensive operations,” says former IAF vice chief Air Marshal KK Nohwar (retd).

The IAF will induct three Brazilian Embraer airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) system aircraft in 2017, six years behind schedule. The AWACS is a more robust monitoring system that provides 360-degree coverage, compared to AEW&C’s 270-degree capability. The AWACS also has superior range and endurance.
Besides shortage of combat squadrons, another glaring hole in the IAF’s capability is low availability of fighter planes to carry out missions at any given moment or serviceability in military parlance.
India has a fleet of nearly 200 Su-30 fighter jets, but just half of them are ready to undertake missions at all times. “Barring the Mirage 2000, the IAF is struggling to improve the availability of most fighters,” says Kak.

IAF officials say aircraft availability should be around 75% during peacetime.

Fixing gaps in air defence is crucial to stave off threats from missiles and fighters. Major says deploying the Russian S 400 Triumf air defence system and the Israeli SPYDER low-level quick reaction missiles should be one of the top priorities for the IAF. India is yet to hammer out a plan to collaborate with a foreign partner to co-develop and co-produce a multirole transport aircraft (MTA) after an Indo-Russian project failed to take off.

The IAF is betting on US-origin Chinook heavy-lift helicopters to fill another capability gap, but deliveries will begin only in 2019. It currently operates a solitary Soviet-origin Mi-26 chopper to deliver payloads to high altitudes. India’s new attack helicopters — the AH-64E Apache Longbow — will also come after three years.
The IAF is hoping for quick execution of a $2-billion project to build medium-lift transport planes in India to replace the ageing Avro fleet.

Pilot training has been hit by a lack of intermediate jet trainers. The project was sanctioned in July 1999 but it has still not materialised, forcing the IAF to use old Kiran Mk-II aircraft for training.
The Pathankot and Uri attacks have exposed the vulnerability of military bases. Experts say India should fast-track the security upgrade at sensitive airbases with smart fences, vibration detection systems, mini-drones, thermal cameras and night vision equipment.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...-s-strength/story-OQKlTiQqqPlgaY4c4GQM5M.html

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

You indians always enjoy focus on china, on the contrary, china military development never focus on india.
Rafael deal is very hot in india-parkistan. but, seldom chinese know about it, there is also no any news on the main media about this deal in china.
The whole asia should keep in peace, in the last centrury, asia suffer a loss.just recently years, people begin to live a better life.
This world is a west-dominated world，the inbalance still there, just change a different form.some people just can't realize.
India is a large country in subcontinent, make peace with your neighbours, especiallly parkistan.don't bully our little brother.

PRC today is our one of the biggest partners when coming to infrastructure and power sector. We hope the collaboration grows.

Another joint exercise is planned this year and we hope this will help in keeping India China relations calm so that business grows.

We should keep it like this as the moment , trade , commerce and investments separate from politics. It has benefited both sides.


However about the security of India , we will of course take steps to secure ourselves , if this mean defending ourselves offensively , so it be.

 

[Agent_47]

Source : http://www.checksix-forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=279&t=174726&start=2025

You indians always enjoy focus on china, on the contrary, china military development never focus on india.
Rafael deal is very hot in india-parkistan. but, seldom chinese know about it, there is also no any news on the main media about this deal in china.
The whole asia should keep in peace, in the last centrury, asia suffer a loss.just recently years, people begin to live a better life.
This world is a west-dominated world，the inbalance still there, just change a different form.some people just can't realize.
India is a large country in subcontinent, make peace with your neighbours, especiallly parkistan.don't bully our little brother.

Not a single bullet fired between China and india in last 50 years. But you can't deny the fact that china armed pakistan with nuclear missiles, which negates your whole 'asia should keep in peace' in rhetoric. Pakistan is using China as an insurance policy when China uses it as a low cost option to keep in check India. You should make peace with 18 countries neighboring before you tutor us. (+ stop Human right violations against our Muslim brothers in xinjiang)

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Source : http://www.checksix-forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=279&t=174726&start=2025


Not a single bullet fired between China and india in last 50 years. But you can't deny the fact that china armed pakistan with nuclear missiles, which negates your whole 'asia should keep in peace' in rhetoric. Pakistan is using China as an insurance policy when China uses it as a low cost option to keep in check India. You should make peace with 18 countries neighboring before you tutor us. (+ stop Human right violations against our Muslim brothers in xinjiang)

Some more things which should be there is as follows

Very important National permit

Of course to showcase its low RCS

Very important for aircraft tailing/chasing raffys

and...

That one is very essential
Meaning in yellow portion
one who has kept an evil eye on me may your face be turned black (black face implying shamed/insulted)
and the green portion - heart beat