De-hyphenating India-Pakistan!!

[WAJsal]

You don't get to choose our leaders. There is hardly one we like in Pakistan. Lets work with the ones we have.

Suggestion.

 

[Bang Galore]

Disagree. Free movement is not possible due to security reasons.

I tend to agree with you on practical terms though the sentiment is reasonable on principle. As I said, the threat of cross border violence will have to recede before that can happen. Won't be a free movement like that within one's own country but some arrangement can be worked out.

 

[doppelganger]

I am sorry to say that the OP has zero idea about what Pakistan is or what it represents.

Pakistan is a last ditch stand to retrieve something from the ruins of the failure of Islam to ride over and absorb Hindu Bharat. Over a thousand years of trial.

Always was and always will be. Nobody understands this (among modern day Indians) more than a descendent of a martial Maratha clan does.

The British did not enslave you. They saved you. Be grateful, be happy, and celebrate Independence not from them but from us.

This post is more for @Atanz than for the OP though. Just to set the record straight. Beyond that I have really no interest in this ongoing sob fest. We know what its going to take to handle Pakistan. What its always taken.

 

[Bang Galore]

nor does India, but we the people should not lose our integrity in calling spade a spade.

India does see a threat of cross border infiltration from Pakistani Kashmir.

Suggestion.

Modi is the first PM in India's history to win an election all by himself (not referring to sitting PM's doing it). Even the great Nehru was someone who won because he was the Congress's candidate the first time. There is very little to suggest, other than the crazy commotion on your TV that Modi is virulently anti-Pakistan. Maybe you can make that case with any argument on how he is different from all other PM's of India.

 

[GURU DUTT]

I am sorry to say that the OP has zero idea about what Pakistan is or what it represents.

Pakistan is a last ditch stand to retrieve something from the ruins of the failure of Islam to ride over and absorb Hindu Bharat.

Always was and always will be. Nobody understands this (among modern day Indians) more than a descendent of a martial Maratha clan does.

The British did not enslave you. They saved you. Be grateful, be happy, and celebrate Independence not from them but from us.

i myself fint it very very ammusing when some gullible peace lovers talk of all that demilitrization and peace talks bull crap

the fact is pakistani establishment and ruling elite under no circumstances will let their be peace between india and pakistan

onli way to handle them is keep them guessing on owr next moove and never ever show humanism or merci to any of there trouble makers cause they are of a kind who take such behaviour as weakness cause they onli understand the language of greed , punishment and fear not love , respect or responsibility look at their nation and their problems closeli it will be crystal clear to you

 

[Bang Galore]

i myself fint it very very ammusing when some gullible peace lovers talk of all that demilitrization and peace talks bull crap

hum ko maaloom hai jannat ki haqeeqat lekin
dil ke Khush rakhney ko Ghalib ye Khayaal achhaa hai
~Ghalib

 

[WAJsal]

Modi is the first PM in India's history to win an election all by himself (not referring to sitting PM's doing it). Even the great Nehru was someone who won because he was the Congress's candidate the first time. There is very little to suggest, other than the crazy commotion on your TV that Modi is virulently anti-Pakistan. Maybe you can make that case with any argument on how he is different from all other PM's of India.

Just a suggestion. Time will tell.
Have a nice day.

 

[nForce]

yar the concept of de-militarization is that we THE STATES back off from both sides, and let the people of Kashmir be at their own.

De-militarization means reduction of military boots on the ground. It does not come with an "AND" clause.

The reason for high Indian military presence in Kashmir is it has been attacked at least 4 times by Pakistan during war and numerous other times by means of terrorism. Now, what sort of guarantee can Pakistani army provide that such things will not be repeated again ?

I tend to agree with you on practical terms though the sentiment is reasonable on principle. As I said, the threat of cross border violence will have to recede before that can happen. Won't be a free movement like that within one's own country but some arrangement can be worked out.

Next day, you will have people boarding the Jammu-Tawi Express and we will have Peshawar like incidents happening in Nagpur and Ujjain too..There will be almost nothing you can do to stop that..

 

[Bang Galore]

yar the concept of de-militarization is that we THE STATES back off from both sides, and let the people of Kashmir be at their own..

Nope. That is not we will agree on. All it means is that the military will be at the borders & not in the interiors.

Next day, you will have people boarding the Jammu-Tawi Express and we will have Peshawar like incidents happening in Nagpur and Ujjain too..There will be almost nothing you can do to stop that..

As I said, that can happen only when the threat of cross border violence is reduced. If ever. Only then.

 

[Srinivas]

i myself fint it very very ammusing when some gullible peace lovers talk of all that demilitrization and peace talks bull crap

the fact is pakistani establishment and ruling elite under no circumstances will let their be peace between india and pakistan

onli way to handle them is keep them guessing on owr next moove and never ever show humanism or merci to any of there trouble makers cause they are of a kind who take such behaviour as weakness cause they onli understand the language of greed , punishment and fear not love , respect or responsibility look at their nation and their problems closeli it will be crystal clear to you

It is not a thoughtful article about peace but expression of something else in this form !

The intention of the article is "not peaceful", basically a looser mentality which tends to think it is doing some thing else, when seen in strategic sense from Indian perspective.

 

[Levina]

Once it is closed, India will be cut off from the overland routes to the West where prosperity will be.
While INdia will be stuck with the Eastern overpopulated and underdeveloped countries

By west do you mean central asia???
In that case your statement sounds illogical. Pakistan started to pay attention to central asian countries with the intention of outflanking India, also to concentrate on TAPI pipeline (Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-India). It is a well known fact that Pakistan can access central asia only through Afghanistan and Iran with whom India has well established ties.
You seem to have misunderstood my statetement when I said "Pakistan should now concentrate on central asia while India should look east" (on the first or 2nd page of this thread). I meant since India has already secured its position in Central Asia India can now afford to look east and should now concentrate on an area where it hasnt concentrated before. You are dilletantte if you assumed that India would ignore the five central Asian states that control the most energy-diverse and oil-rich parts of the world.
Anyways I think Malaysia,Thailand,Japan among other countries are worth getting friendly with, India is already reaping benefits out of its Japanese connection.
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And yes the nation of India did not pay their dues for Muslims, actually your independence stood on acceptance or else there were a lot of Muslims in India who would have shifted and India would be smaller then it is today

Random claims with nothing to back it.
I know hundreds of muslims in India and not one has ever uttered about moving to Pakistan. Infact it was politician Shazia Ilmi's father in Kanpur who stopped muslims of UP from migrating to Pakistan. He foresaw that Pakistan would attract religious zealots, he told the muslims that in a coutry where extemists outnumber pacifists peace in not a possibility.
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When you want to talk to someone and have a feeling of superiority no issues can ever be resolved.

Superiority complex???
Yeah right, now read this....

Our land gave birth to civilization when the land you hail from had folk running around naked trying figure out how to wrap your posterior

lol
Come on, Mr. @Atanz we are judged by what we do today and not by what we did yesterday. @Solomon2 might be an Israeli but Israel is a more developed country today than India and Pakistan combined.

@levina When I am in bad mood I never argue with ladies. Old rule of mine. So far now I will overlook your post.

Fine!

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His

Lol

It's nothing new, the Indians really have no interest in abiding by their international commitments, made multiple times, in the UNSC.

Comprehension is not your strength I guess, because anyone who has read UNSC's resolution knows that it asks Pakistan to vacate Azad Kashmir first, conducting plebiscite is secondary.

OP is a rehash of some Indian commentator's op-ed lament on an Indian news site.

To an extent you're right, I've been reading about it for sometime now in different articles. I've not claimed that the points made by me have never been discussed before, but then OP is original. If you still have an issue with my OP then report tab is your friend.

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Pakistan is now more emboldened than ever due to its misplaced notion that it would soon become a superpower far ahead of India due to the CPEC. That's why the smirk on their faces and an aggressive attitude toward India. However, they're in for a surprise!

Secondly, let's face it. The truth is that the Pakistan Establishment will never want peace with India as then the PA/ISI would be relegated to the background and lose the power and pelf they now command. In other words, the PA would be out of business. Now who want's that? Certainly not the army brass!

It's an ideological divide between the two countries and thus the twain shall never meet.

The Pakistanis don't care for the Kashmiris or Kashmir per se. The real issue is the water that flows through Kashmir into Pakistan, which India controls. If they get Kashmir, they get to control the water. But hypothetically speaking even if Kashmir is given to Pakistan, the Establishment will come up with some other issue to keep the conflict alive due to the reason mentioned above - power.

State sponsored terrorism will continue as these terrorists bred in Pakistan, like the LeT and JeM, are the PA's first line of defense against a future conflict with India or even Afghanistan and therefore are its 'strategic assets'.

In a nutshell, there is going to be a no peace no war scenario between India and Pakistan till the end of days. That's the reality. Better get used to it as a way of life!

True that.
Since my solution involves relegating Pakistan to consular status and bringing down trade to zero, doesnt really need Pak govt or its army's consent, I'm assuming these solutions can be worked upon. Though I agree skirmishes on the border might continue for long, and with more zeal than ever.

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In my personal opinion current day Indians are no better than Pakistanis and Pakistanis are no better than Indians. India will remain toilet less for another century and we (Pakistanis who have toilets) will become toilet less in certain future. That is our fate. Sorry if someone got offended.

Lol
No you did not offend me atleast. Your post is nothing but a brusque version of my OP.
The point I made was, to progress India and Pakistan must dissociate themselves or else we might continue fighting, developing nukes while putting the social progress on backburner...or in your words both the countries can remain toiletless for another century.
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Let me begin by complimenting you for creating a thread which does not begin with a cut & paste job.

For once I read an original thought which is not aggressive or bad the eyes.
I am with you on downgrading ties to consular level , trade must happen only if Pak is interested . It would only make sense for Pak to trade with us - Lahore is closer to the industrial state of Punjab / Delhi than it is to Karachi port. However its their call.

What does India depend upon Pakistan for ? Pak does depend upon India for its water.

On Kashmir, I would like to add that besides all other reasons , Pak has queered the pitch by ceding a part of J&K to China. This makes 3 parties who own the land therefore makes is issue as alive as the Dodo.

Sealing borders is desirable but not achievable.

I must tell you that you're one of the few posters on this thread who read my OP and could comprehend it. There 're many others here who began sabre rattling on this thread immedately after they read the title (and the K word ).

Re negotiating the IWT is also an option - part of stage two / three of pressure building.

Rightly pointed by you and @OrionHunter this is one thing which is gonna hurt them where it hurts most, albeit India would face the heat from international community over this and it will become easier for Pakistan to play the victim card. But this will work...am sure about it.

A war where bullets need not fly , at least not across borders.

A war where your most coveted resource - The Nuke is of no use,

A war where you are compelled to borrow to stay competitive & spend on weapons at the cost of basics like education, power . This in turn creates Madrasas and power shortages which cause further social unrest and lack of industrialisation.

A war where your nation is getting compelled to offer itself in exchange for its financial security which is dependent upon your relevance to whom you offer your self to.

A war where your Armed forces spend close to 20 % of their resources in protecting themselves from their own citizens.

Oh.. the list is endless. If only you guys could see.

You're talking to a wall.

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Well there can be four kind of solutions:

A - Solution Acceptable to Both parties
B- Solution to X Party
C- Solution acceptable to Y party
D- Solution acceptable to no one at all.

What you have proposed falls in "D" category dear.

.

I beg to differ.
My points are completely acceptable to the Indian crowd here, and to some of the Pakistanis too, K word is the problem though.
If you look at it closely then our diplomatic relations are as good as bad, so relegrating each other to consular status would not effect either party. Also, why bother to carry out trade when MFN status could also not bring any substantial change to it??? The trade volume is embarrasingly low.

We will have to learn to live together and up till now we have done nothing to learn this. It is all talk and nothing practical, nothing form both sides

I did not suggest war, my OP is about peace but in a way which has not been approached before.
What I suggested could be the last option for peace in the region; India and Pakistan must put each other on ignore list and concentrate on issues within themselves which might finally help our countries come out of the vicious cycle of poverty.

 

[Gufi]

I know hundreds of muslims in India and not one has ever uttered about moving to Pakistan. Infact it was politician Shazia Ilmi's father in Kanpur who stopped muslims of UP from migrating to Pakistan. He foresaw that Pakistan would attract religious zealots, he told the muslims that in a coutry where extemists outnumber pacifists peace in not a possibility.

read what I replied to. Understand the context. Someone was saying that India was supposed to be non secular and for Hindus. Had personal problems with Muslims. What are your views on that ??@levina

 

[I.R.A]

Lol
No you did not offend me atleast. Your post is nothing but a brusque version of my OP.
The point I made was, to progress India and Pakistan must dissociate themselves or else we might continue fighting, developing nukes while putting the social progress on backburner...or in your words both the countries can remain toiletless for another century.

I had a whole list of wishes before that by the way

And yes dissociate. kya roz roz ka drama hai ajj cricket band, kal bat cheet band, parsoo yeh band wo band.

 

[Levina]

Adding a poll on this thread would have made it better.Public opinion do play it's role in democracy Let's freeze it like Cuba and US did .Let's mine entire LoC and remaining radcliffe line.

Oh!!!
I've added a poll now.
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@Syed.Ali.Haider @Atanz @FaujHistorian @ranjeet @nair @Gufi @Arsalan @utraash @DESERT FIGHTER @third eye @Bang Galore @AgNoStiC MuSliM @scorpionx @WAJsal @Solomon2 @Imran Khan @Leader @Kaniska @nForce @ito @Jango @MilSpec @Color_Less_Sky @Srinivas @VelocuR and others who 've posted on this thread...
Do me a favor guys...pls vote. That will give an idea about the % of ppl who favor this idea.
Sorry for the incovenience caused.

 

[VCheng]

Oh!!!
I've added a poll now.
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@Syed.Ali.Haider @Atanz @FaujHistorian @ranjeet @nair @Gufi @Arsalan @utraash @DESERT FIGHTER @third eye @Bang Galore @AgNoStiC MuSliM @scorpionx @WAJsal @Solomon2 @Imran Khan @Leader @Kaniska @nForce @ito @Jango @MilSpec @Color_Less_Sky @Srinivas @VelocuR and others who 've posted on this thread...
Do me a favor guys...pls vote. That will give an idea about the % of ppl who favor this idea.
Sorry for the incovenience caused.

Done.