Egypt to order Buyan Class corvettes in 2017

[Penguin]

The article says project 21632, not 21631 for client 818.. so this is something else I guess.. a new version!

View attachment 410065

AESA MR-352 Pozitiv-M1.2
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g191/snake65/PozitivME12.jpg

Sigh

Yes, I saw that and you probably saw that the ship you display above is just 560 tons. And the dimensions are virtually those of the 21630 (62x10x2x meters) Buyan rather than those of 21631 (75x11x2.5m) Buyan M. The smaller tonnage ships do NOT have the 8-cell VLS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyan-class_corvette
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/21631-specs.htm

In the Russian Project designation the last digit indicates VERSION. The basic underlying design remains Project 2163. It really is 2163.0, 2163.1, 2163.2 etc.

Effectively, the OCK company offers not 1 but 2 Project 21632 Tornado....

Project 21632 "Tornado" Gunship

http://www.oaoosk.ru/en/products/tornado/

Project 21632 "Tornado" Patrol ship

http://www.oaoosk.ru/en/products/project-21632-tornado/

The Gunship as pictured clearly is the Buyan (not the Buyan M), as you can tell from the shorter superstructure that doesn't have a 'knick' at the top. Buyan also lacks the forward Gibka MANPAD launcher right up against the bridge.

Global Security puts 21632 down as 'export version of Buyan' (21630)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/21631-pics.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/21630.htm

So, which one has Egypt expressed interested in (as opposed to 'to order'...) ?

 

[The SC]

Sigh

Yes, I saw that and you probably saw that the ship you display above is just 560 tons. And the dimensions are virtually those of the 21630 (62x10x2x meters) Buyan rather than those of 21631 (75x11x2.5m) Buyan M. The smaller tonnage ships do NOT have the 8-cell VLS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyan-class_corvette
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/21631-specs.htm

In the Russian Project designation the last digit indicates VERSION. The basic underlying design remains Project 2163. It really is 2163.0, 2163.1, 2163.2 etc.

Effectively, the OCK company offers not 1 but 2 Project 21632 Tornado....

Project 21632 "Tornado" Gunship

http://www.oaoosk.ru/en/products/tornado/

Project 21632 "Tornado" Patrol ship

http://www.oaoosk.ru/en/products/project-21632-tornado/

The Gunship as pictured clearly is the Buyan (not the Buyan M), as you can tell from the shorter superstructure that doesn't have a 'knick' at the top. Buyan also lacks the forward Gibka MANPAD launcher right up against the bridge.

Global Security puts 21632 down as 'export version of Buyan' (21630)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/21631-pics.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/21630.htm

So, which one has Egypt expressed interested in (as opposed to 'to order'...) ?

The 900t (not sure yet!), is what Egypt is ordering.. with Egyptian specs, that means the Tornado one..the pictures posted were to show that Russia has many programs and versions of the Buyan..The first pictures though are of the Tornado Export version of the Buyan-M with VLS..

 

[Penguin]

The 900t (not sure yet!), is what Egypt is ordering.. with Egyptian specs, that means the Tornado one..the pictures posted were to show that Russia has many programs and versions of the Buyan..The first pictures though are of the Tornado Export version of the Buyan-M with VLS..

If it is 900 ton or so it is 21631. Not TORNADO.

 

[The SC]

There are still confusions in the names and tonnage.. Egypt might just go for the 549t vessels, since there are news today that Russia will install the Pantsir-M on them..

 

[JKangoroo]

They are just buying useless stuff duh !!!!

 

[The SC]

They are just buying useless stuff duh !!!!

Not really, Egypt needs to replace some of its old ships, and these ones are modern, stealth and pack a good punch, even at 550t.. the 900t one has VLS..

 

[Gomig-21]

Not really, Egypt needs to replace some of its old ships, and these ones are modern, stealth and pack a good punch, even at 550t, the 900t has VLS..

Indeed. Hard to believe anyone would think any of the stuff Egypt has bought is useless, especially with its navy. Even as shocking as the 2 Mistrals were, it makes a lot of sense now that we see the strategic depth those two LHD's give it once they pack them with Ka-52 Katrans and have the grouping worked out for them. These Buyans make a lot of sense to work in that manner, even as escort patrol boats.

 

[The SC]

Indeed. Hard to believe anyone would think any of the stuff Egypt has bought is useless, especially with its navy. Even as shocking as the 2 Mistrals were, it makes a lot of sense now that we see the strategic depth those two LHD's give it once they pack them with Ka-52 Katrans and have the grouping worked out for them. These Buyans make a lot of sense to work in that manner, even as escort patrol boats.

In this case diversity is good for several reasons:

- The Harpoon on the Ambassador is without the ability for land attack while the Yakhont, the Klub and the Cezar have the ability to hit land targets..

- The Ambassador cost about $ 350 million, almost as much as three to four times the price of the Buyan..

- If you get the latest version of the Buyan equipped with AESA radar, ASW equipments against submarines and Pantsir air defence system it will be better for EN, but the price will undoubtedly increase to maybe half of the Ambassador's..

- The presence of supersonic missiles such as the Yakhont, Klub and Moskit within your naval armament gives a qualitative leap.. You can not always rely on the Harpoon that Usrael knows everything about and his Seeker and know how to jam it easily, especially with the removal of satellite guidance from the Egyptian version..

Moskit

Yakhont

Klub

Various sizes of Klub

 

[Gomig-21]

Yakhont

Good thing they didn't name it "Yakhawal."

 

[The SC]

Good thing they didn't name it "Yakhawal."

They made Brahmos with it in a JV with India..So it is open for ToT if one can provide some money..And since KSA is also interested in Russian weapons this one might be a JV between _at least KSA_ Egypt, KSA and Russia..it is important to note that it has a land version, an air version and a sea version, it is supersonic and being upgraded to hypersonic..this is quite an amazing cruise missile to have in one's inventory..
For the Buyan, the news are still opaque about the version, the 550t was touted, but it does not have a helipad, so it will depend what role Egypt wants it for.. The best will be the 900t since it can carry a helicopter which regardless of how good the AESA radar is, represents almost 50% of the corvette's capabilities in recon..

 

[Gomig-21]

They made Brahmos with it in a JV with India..So it is open for ToT if one can provide some money..And since KSA is also interested in Russian weapons this one might be a JV between _at least KSA_ Egypt, KSA and Russia..it is important to note that it has a land version, an air version and a sea version, it is supersonic and being upgraded to hypersonic..this is quite an amazing cruise missile to have in one's inventory..
For the Buyan, the news are still opaque about the version, the 550t was touted, but it does not have a helipad, so it will depend what role Egypt wants it for.. The best will be the 900t since it can carry a helicopter which regardless of how good the AESA radar is, represents almost 50% of the corvette's capabilities in recon..

India has a bigger advantage than Egypt vis-a-vis acquiring ToT or even JV with Russia since they purchase a considerably larger quantity of weapons from them. The JV in the PAK-FA/FGFA program it has with Russia alone ($30 billion?) might be greater than what Egypt has paid out to Russia for everything it has bought since 2013.

Egypt's navy is undoubtedly very impressive, regardless of what the haters say lol. But it needs at least 15 more Corvettes than the present count (including the ones not yet built) and at least 10 more advanced, attack submarines.

 

[The SC]

India has a bigger advantage than Egypt vis-a-vis acquiring ToT or even JV with Russia since they purchase a considerably larger quantity of weapons from them. The JV in the PAK-FA/FGFA program it has with Russia alone ($30 billion?) might be greater that what Egypt has paid out to Russia for everything it has bought since 2013.

Egypt's navy is undoubtedly very impressive, regardless of what the haters say lol. But it needs at least 15 more Corvettes than the present count (including the ones not yet built) and at least 10 more advanced, attack submarines.

Agree.. andt it is also about geostrategy, the Middle East is of utmost importance to Russia nowadays.. just consider the potential arms sales in the ME that Egypt is opening the doors to, it will certainly outdo the Russian-Indian deals.. KSA alone can do that.. besides, China has signed a $100 billion deal for gas with Russia, plus the weapons like SU-35s and the S-400 ..KSA just saved the Russian economy lately by signing a deal to regulate Oil flow and hence stabilize the prices, otherwise the Russian economy would have suffered a lot and could crumble if the prices would have reached $21 mark !
combining all of this gives a clear picture of what Russia can/willing to provide and offer in ToT.. the level might go from medium/high to Egypt due to the strategic relationships and go to medium/low for other countries in the region till the "Acquaintance" gets better..
Egypt will reap the price of opening some closed doors, that is for sure..
Egyptian leading Generals said in the last Russian military show in St-Petersburg that they are interested in corvettes and Submarines.. So they are really thinking about more modern corvettes and more submarines.. the latest Kilo can be a good addition, and the Chinese ones with AIP are almost a must..4 kilo and 6 latest Yuan will be enough..add 10 of the stealth Buyan-M class made to Egyptian specs _involving ToT and local production_ with SW, surface-to-surface/ground missiles and a potent air-to air defence system like the Pantsir-M and voila!..

 

[Penguin]

- The Harpoon on the Ambassador is without the ability for land attack while the Yakhont, the Klub and the Cezar have the ability to hit land targets..

The Egyptian FMC is armed with eight RGM-84L Boeing Harpoon SSM Block II missiles. It can also carry a 76mm Super Rapid Gun, MK49 Rolling Airframe Missiles and CIWS Block 1B.
http://www.naval-technology.com/pro...-craft/egyptian-navy-fast-missile-craft3.html
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/egyptian-navy-fast-missile-craft/

Harpoon Block II is an over-the-horizon, anti-ship missile manufactured by Boeing Defence, Space & Security. It is the world's superior anti-ship missile capable of performing land-strike and anti-ship missions. The all-weather missile can engage a wide variety of land-based targets, including coastal defence sites, surface-to-air missile sites, aircraft, port or industrial facilities, and naval ships anchored in ports.
The missile employs GPS-aided inertial navigation system (INS) to strike targets on land and ships stationed in port. Harpoon Block II integrates the low-cost inertial measuring unit from the Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) programme. It also uses a software package, mission computer, integrated GPS/INS, and GPS antenna and receiver from the AGM-84H SLAM-ER (Standoff Land Attack Missile Expanded Response). The guidance control unit (GCU) of Harpoon Block II integrates a selective availability anti-spoofing module (SAASM) GPS receiver. The GCU can also be incorporated with a data link for network centric operation.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/harpoon-block-ii-anti-ship-missile/

- The Ambassador cost about $ 350 million, almost as much as three to four times the price of the Buyan..

Its a bit more complicated than that. US$240m was the marginal cost of fourth hull in 2009.

On 7 August 2004 the Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notified the sale of three fast missile craft to Egypt for US$565m under a U.S. Navy Foreign Military Sales program managed by the U.S. Navy's Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA).
A contract was expected to be signed by the end of that year, but industry sources indicate that the program remained in limbo over technical questions that were not resolved until a meeting in Alexandria in January 2005.
Phase I began in December 2005, when VT Halter Marine signed a USD 28.8m contract with the US Department of Defense to develop a functional design for a fast missile craft for the Egyptian Navy. This was a new design, sometimes referred to as the Ambassador Mk IV design. Under this phase, VT Halter Marine conducted analytical, design, engineering and model testing for the craft. The effort included preparation for the integration of C4ISR as well as a combat system effectiveness study to validate the system requirements of the vessel. The first phase was completed in December 2006.
On 7 September 2008, the DSCA reported that the budget for three ships had increased to US$1.050m and construction finally began in November 2009. On 17 December 2009 the DSCA announced that a fourth vessel would be procured for an additional US$240m, increasing the program cost to US$1.290 billion. In May 2010, the Egyptian Navy was in discussions for the procurement of two additional units (five and six). These units could begin around 2014.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambassador_MK_III_missile_boat

So, in essence, the $1050m price included a lot of design work, it is not the cost (or price) of building (purchasing) one additional boat now that the design is fixed an mature. Also, it is unclear if these amounts include any ordnance (i.e. missiles), spare parts, or service packages e.g. for maintenance or personnel training.

- If you get the latest version of the Buyan equipped with AESA radar, ASW equipments against submarines and Pantsir air defence system it will be better for EN, but the price will undoubtedly increase to maybe half of the Ambassador's..

So, what actually IS the price of a Buyan or Buyan-M as have been produced/ordered? Can we have a source for that? If a meaningfull source is found, please see whether or not any price that is listed is inclusive or exclusive of any munitions (i.e. said supersonic missiles). Not to mention the services mentioned above. Next, how much would adding an AESA radar and Pantsir-M gun/missile system increase the price over the current version? Adding meaningfull ASW requires installation of a sonar and ASW weapons (and one may wonder whether that makes much sense on a fast coastal missile boat).

- The presence of supersonic missiles such as the Yakhont, Klub and Moskit within your naval armament gives a qualitative leap.. You can not always rely on the Harpoon that Usrael knows everything about and his Seeker and know how to jam it easily, especially with the removal of satellite guidance from the Egyptian version..

Supersonic missiles are fast, but not necessarily sophisticated in their guidance. Conversely, stealthy subsonic missiles with advance guidance methods remain very relevant (e.g. LRASM, which will have the same footprint as Harpoon). Harpoon-ER will eliminate any range difference.

Would you kindly provide a source quote to substantiate the statement/claim that an 'Egyptian version' of Harpoon has satellite guidance removed?

For the Buyan, the news are still opaque about the version, the 550t was touted, but it does not have a helipad, so it will depend what role Egypt wants it for.. The best will be the 900t since it can carry a helicopter which regardless of how good the AESA radar is, represents almost 50% of the corvette's capabilities in recon..

Neither Buyan/Tornado gunship nor Buyan-M has the ability to land a helicopter.

Only the 21632 Tornado patrol ship has a landing pad (but has no VLS).

http://www.oaoosk.ru/en/products/military/?section=54

For ASW, project 22500 would be more appropriate

http://www.oaoosk.ru/en/products/project-22500/

 

[The SC]

The Egyptian FMC is armed with eight RGM-84L Boeing Harpoon SSM Block II missiles. It can also carry a 76mm Super Rapid Gun, MK49 Rolling Airframe Missiles and CIWS Block 1B.
http://www.naval-technology.com/pro...-craft/egyptian-navy-fast-missile-craft3.html
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/egyptian-navy-fast-missile-craft/

Harpoon Block II is an over-the-horizon, anti-ship missile manufactured by Boeing Defence, Space & Security. It is the world's superior anti-ship missile capable of performing land-strike and anti-ship missions. The all-weather missile can engage a wide variety of land-based targets, including coastal defence sites, surface-to-air missile sites, aircraft, port or industrial facilities, and naval ships anchored in ports.
The missile employs GPS-aided inertial navigation system (INS) to strike targets on land and ships stationed in port. Harpoon Block II integrates the low-cost inertial measuring unit from the Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) programme. It also uses a software package, mission computer, integrated GPS/INS, and GPS antenna and receiver from the AGM-84H SLAM-ER (Standoff Land Attack Missile Expanded Response). The guidance control unit (GCU) of Harpoon Block II integrates a selective availability anti-spoofing module (SAASM) GPS receiver. The GCU can also be incorporated with a data link for network centric operation.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/harpoon-block-ii-anti-ship-missile/


Its a bit more complicated than that. US$240m was the marginal cost of fourth hull in 2009.

On 7 August 2004 the Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notified the sale of three fast missile craft to Egypt for US$565m under a U.S. Navy Foreign Military Sales program managed by the U.S. Navy's Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA).
A contract was expected to be signed by the end of that year, but industry sources indicate that the program remained in limbo over technical questions that were not resolved until a meeting in Alexandria in January 2005.
Phase I began in December 2005, when VT Halter Marine signed a USD 28.8m contract with the US Department of Defense to develop a functional design for a fast missile craft for the Egyptian Navy. This was a new design, sometimes referred to as the Ambassador Mk IV design. Under this phase, VT Halter Marine conducted analytical, design, engineering and model testing for the craft. The effort included preparation for the integration of C4ISR as well as a combat system effectiveness study to validate the system requirements of the vessel. The first phase was completed in December 2006.
On 7 September 2008, the DSCA reported that the budget for three ships had increased to US$1.050m and construction finally began in November 2009. On 17 December 2009 the DSCA announced that a fourth vessel would be procured for an additional US$240m, increasing the program cost to US$1.290 billion. In May 2010, the Egyptian Navy was in discussions for the procurement of two additional units (five and six). These units could begin around 2014.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambassador_MK_III_missile_boat

So, in essence, the $1050m price included a lot of design work, it is not the cost (or price) of building (purchasing) one additional boat now that the design is fixed an mature. Also, it is unclear if these amounts include any ordnance (i.e. missiles), spare parts, or service packages e.g. for maintenance or personnel training.


So, what actually IS the price of a Buyan or Buyan-M as have been produced/ordered? Can we have a source for that? If a meaningfull source is found, please see whether or not any price that is listed is inclusive or exclusive of any munitions (i.e. said supersonic missiles). Not to mention the services mentioned above. Next, how much would adding an AESA radar and Pantsir-M gun/missile system increase the price over the current version? Adding meaningfull ASW requires installation of a sonar and ASW weapons (and one may wonder whether that makes much sense on a fast coastal missile boat).


Supersonic missiles are fast, but not necessarily sophisticated in their guidance. Conversely, stealthy subsonic missiles with advance guidance methods remain very relevant (e.g. LRASM, which will have the same footprint as Harpoon). Harpoon-ER will eliminate any range difference.

Would you kindly provide a source quote to substantiate the statement/claim that an 'Egyptian version' of Harpoon has satellite guidance removed?

These are well known facts that the Egyptian Harpoons were depleted of their land attack capacity as well as satellite guidance on the request of Usrael.. in any case Egypt got a max 30 harpoons..
I thought you knew this !
As for the Sonar, the Buyan-M the Russian version has already one.. As I said that with all the Equipments for sea, air and land the price might get to half the ambassador's be it including armaments or not, because it applies to both, So the comparison is at all levels..plus the ToT possibility where Egypt can buy 4 and make another 4 or 6 in its shipyards.. which is a big plus..
As for the Missiles,you can always refer to the net..for example the Moskit is considered to be one of the best if not the best antiship missile out there..:

"It reaches a speed of Mach 3 at high altitude and Mach 2.2 at low-altitude. This speed is 4.25 to 3 times more than speed of the subsonic American Harpoon. When slower missiles, like the Harpoon or the French Exocet are used, the maximum theoretical response time for the defending ship is 120 to 150 seconds. This long response time provides time to launch countermeasures and employ jamming before deploying "hard" defense systems such as missiles and close-in weapon systems. But the high speed of the 3M82 "Mosquito" missiles reduce the maximum theoretical response time for the defending ship to 25 to 30 seconds. This short response time makes jamming and countermeasures very difficult, and firing missiles and quick-firing artillery even more difficult. The Moskit was designed to be employed against smaller NATO naval groups in the Baltic Sea (Danish and German) and the Black Sea (Turkish) and non-NATO vessels in the Pacific (Japanese, South Korean, etc.), and to defend the Russian mainland against NATO amphibious assault.[3] The missile can perform intensive anti-defense maneuvers with overloads in excess of 10g, which completed for 9 km before the target"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-270_Moskit


Do not get me wrong on this.. we all know that the American systems are the best, but when one can get the second best at half the price, ToT and no strings attached then it is obvious that the second choice will prevail..

For the Buyan version, it will be made to Egyptian specs.. so let's wait and see if it will have a helipad and VLS or not or just some of them..

ps: I will try to get the sources (I have already consulted, mainly on the Harpoon missing components for Egypt..do not be surprised, the Amraam-120 has been missing on the Egyptian F-16s for a long time due to the same reasons!!),the Buyan prices as well..

Here is one:
"The proposed sale of these submarine-launched missiles will support the Egyptian Navy’s Type 209 submarines, increasing its anti-surface warfare and maritime security capabilities. Egypt already possesses Harpoon Block II missiles and will have no difficulty absorbing these additional weapons."

http://www.***************/egypt-to-buy-ugm-84l-harpoon-block-ii-encapsulated-missiles-67484/

http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/egypt-ugm-84l-harpoon-block-ii-encapsulated-missiles

"in June 2015 the United States completed its delivery of four fast missile crafts to Egypt. These small warships are equipped with Harpoon surface-to-surface missiles. [19]"

http://www.nti.org/learn/countries/egypt/

 

[Gomig-21]

So, in essence, the $1050m price included a lot of design work, it is not the cost (or price) of building (purchasing) one additional boat now that the design is fixed an mature. Also, it is unclear if these amounts include any ordnance (i.e. missiles), spare parts, or service packages e.g. for maintenance or personnel training.

Isn't it usually standard for a publicly announced military contract price for a preliminary system to include training and weapons. I think secondary contracts might even have some training because of tech improvements or changes, but I do believe they also include weapons, no?