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Exercise Garuda begins in France

Depends on what basis your evaluation is
Rafale is ahead in some and lacks in some mission .

With regards to EW suite if you take whole spectrum for comparison like

-Electronic Attack comprising
(ARM (Anti Radiation Munitions),Directed Energy Weapons,EM Jamming/ECM,EM Deception

-Electronic Support Measures comprising
Combat Direction Finding/Triangulation , Combat Threat Warning/Perception , Electronic Intelligence

-Electronic Protection comprising
EMCON (Emission Control) , EM Hardening , EW Frequency Deconfliction

My winner is F18E
if you look at the capability of F18E in EW among all MRCA candidates its even more complex , every-time you read about Growler capability just amazes more.

For example look at just one scenario
If both F18 and Rafale are in service of IAF and both jets are going on a strike mission
First thing would be to fly fast at both high altitude and at sea level to try and remain in envelope between AWACS and SAM radars where threat is minimum . Rafale flies at Mach 0.75 while F18 sustains at 1 Mach ??? at low altitude .

Second threat will come from IADS ( air-defence system ) .
Here SPECTRA and MDPU CP can pick up radiation as soon as F18E LAU-118(V) system detects radiation ,
but after that Spectra can only display threat while CP-1001B/C HARM CLC (Command Launch Computer) on F18 can not only display but it will also guide HARM-88 AGM launch system to fire AGM88 missile to take out that SAM radar installation , which home on to target passively .
And with block6 upgrade of HARM , even if Enemy shuts down his SAM radar to escape like Serbians did when F117 was around, the onboard Mww ( millimeter wave terminal seeker) will provide a counter-shutdown capability and this guidance will ensure that SAM is destroyed .
All this at a stand-of distance and passively .

Once you clear out these IDS threat , F18 can create havoc with its JDAM/JSOFW/PAveway3/Laser-JDAM at stand-of distance and at relatively cheap price .

Compare that to Rafale's weaponry
One - it lacks HARM ,
second - Stand-of capability is with AASM + ASMP missile + GBU12 Paveway2 only and compare it to JSOW/JDAM these are not only costly but provide less flexibility which cheap cluster bombs of US provide .

But all this comes attached with restriction , so even i personally advocate Rafale over F18 for MRCA .

Excellent post Prateek !! Hmmm you have forced me to do more research on Growler. I must admit - I dont like both 16 and 18...somehow Gripen seems to be a sensible choice for me --whereas Rafale would be my dream
 
Thanks a lot Prateek,

I have one more doubt - Will it be on par with Spectra or the one on F 35?

Sri -- Israeli's are trying to negotiate to integrate mayavi on F35 --so i guess it should be on par --atleast for most parts.
 
Depends on what basis your evaluation is
Rafale is ahead in some and lacks in some mission .

With regards to EW suite if you take whole spectrum for comparison like

My winner is F18E
if you look at the capability of F18E in EW among all MRCA candidates its even more complex , every-time you read about Growler capability just amazes more...


But there is not a single proof that the Growlers are on offer for India, so you have to compare it with the normal EW suit of F18SH and have to consider what version we will get too! Keep in mind that there were reports about downgraded export radars and EWS instead of the same that USN has.
Personally, Rafale is AFAIK the only fighter that offers 360° passive detection of missiles, aircrafts and even ground targets, all offered by Spectra EWS and the next fighter that will have similar capabilities is the F35.
I agree that the F18SH EW suit will most likely one of the best in the competition, if we get the real one, but as I often say, Spectra is way more than an countermeasure and not even the F18SH can offer such capabilities.

Once you clear out these IDS threat , F18 can create havoc with its JDAM/JSOFW/PAveway3/Laser-JDAM at stand-of distance and at relatively cheap price .

Compare that to Rafale's weaponry
One - it lacks HARM ,
second - Stand-of capability is with AASM + ASMP missile + GBU12 Paveway2 only and compare it to JSOW/JDAM these are not only costly but provide less flexibility which cheap cluster bombs of US provide .

But all this comes attached with restriction , so even i personally advocate Rafale over F18 for MRCA .

That's not true! The only weapon Rafale don't has yet is a dedicated anti radiation weapon, because they strike the SAM instead of the radar. Except of that, they can offer comparabel, if not even better weapons than the US!

- both F18SH and the Rafale can use Paveway 2 and 3 bombs (1000Kg GBU 24)

- what the JDAM is for the F18SH, AASM is for Rafale and AASM is not only more precise, but offers the same stand off ranges too and has already GPS/INS and IR guidance, laser, EM and even anti radiation versions are under development. By the fact that MBDA is offering us partnerships in weapon developments, further developments of AASM would benefits our own developments too.

- F18SH has Harpoon, Rafale Exocet

- F18SH has SL-AMMER and JSOW, the Rafale has Scalp


Of course the French/European weapons are more expensive, because build and sold in less numbers than the US, but we will use the same weapons that Rafale has with upgraded Mirage 2K-5 anyway, so no complete new logistic line has to be placed, which clearly is an advantage. Not to mention that it's unlikely that the US will allow integration of cheaper Indian weapons, like Astra missile, or our new LGB.

So the difference in A2G weaponary is by far not as much as you believe, that's why the Rafale is generally counted as the only fighter in the competition, that is comparable to the F18SH in this field.
 
Personally, Rafale is AFAIK the only fighter that offers 360° passive detection of missiles, aircrafts and even ground targets, all offered by Spectra EWS and the next fighter that will have similar capabilities is the F35.

Nope , Eurofighter was the first one to have this capability ,
PIRATE on typhoon = F-OSF of rafale
EURO-DASS + PRAETORIAN = SPECTRA
TAD active Decoy on typhoon = ? ? ? ?
You can even compare system by system wrt to location and function

4771423630_5cf9e5549f_b.jpg



I have highlighted concerned text with yellow marker in picture


"Sensor Fusion in Eurofighter Unbeatable and Unmatched"

On Typhoon, sensor fusion is achieved through the attack and identification system (AIS), which combines data from the major onboard sensors. It also can combine onboard sensor data with that received from offboard sensor platforms, such as airborne warning and control system (AWACS) E-3, joint surveillance target attack radar system (Joint STARS) E-8, and the airborne standoff radar (ASTOR) aircraft. And AIS can take data from other Typhoons via the MIDS, which includes Link 16.

AIS also integrates other functions such as the DASS, navigation and communications. It consists of an "avionic computer" and a navigation computer, which are linked via the STANAG 3910 data bus to other systems such as the Captor radar and the passive infrared airborne tracking equipment (PIRATE) system. The computers are identical and have a modular design based on Motorola's 68020 CPUs with 68882 math coprocessors. In addition, several custom reduced instruction set computer (RISC) -based processors are used to accelerate floating point and matrix operations.

PIRATE gives Typhoon its passive detection system, which can be used when the Captor radar might give away Typhoon's position and intentions. It's provided by the EuroFirst consortium, headed by Thales Optronics.

Defensive Aids

The DASS is supplied by the EuroDASS consortium, led by EADS Defence Electronics and including Selex (a 75 percent Finmeccanica and 25 percent BAE Systems joint venture), Elettronica in Italy and Indra in Spain.

DASS comprises an integrated radar warner, electronic surveillance measures (ESM), a laser threat and missile approach warning system, an electronic countermeasures system (ECM), towed decoys, jammers and other sensors and avionics. All the DASS subsystems are managed by a single, central self-protection computer. DASS displays situational awareness information to the pilot, including the location of radar and surface-to-air missile sites.

D*** is the first integrated electronic warfare system on a military aircraft. It is installed inside the airframe, rather than bolted on as a pod. It's fully automated to reduce pilot workload and will defend the aircraft without pilot action. According to Andy Lumb, avionics product manager at BAE Systems, "The feedback from our flight trials and the customer is that it is one of the best and most powerful DASS systems they've ever seen."

Part of the DASS system is a deployable towed decoy. Trials are ongoing and BAE Systems expects to deliver it next year. "We think we have a world's first of deploying the decoy at Mach 1.4 and towing it up to Mach 1.8," says Lumb.
Its just that DASS and Pretarion dosen't have ad value like Spectra

and F18E have similar capabilities of 360 passive detection .
Difference being on F18 the passive detectors are not integrated but externally mounted ,
the IRST is mounted on centerline external fuel tank and the detection+Jamming conformal antennae are tightly blended into fuselage/airframe & on Forward and rear portion of mounted pod covering 360 degrees .

Biggest advantage that F18E and Growler have over both rafale and eurofighter is because of externally mounted Jammer instead of internal one .
The HEF AN/ALQ 99 Jammer + AN'ALQ 128 jammer are not constrained by space and power+heating issues
The low LEF The ALQ-218 combined with the ALQ-99 LEF cover almost every possible freq and power spectrum .
Each F18 can carry about 5 AN/ALQ99 jammer with 50KW power compare it to the internal jammers on Rafale which are even smaller than RBE-2AE antennae .
No wonder when manufacturer's claim that F18 can Jam from AWACS to Ground based radar to Mobile phones on every possible freq .

That's not true! The only weapon Rafale don't has yet is a dedicated anti radiation weapon, because they strike the SAM instead of the radar.
I don't get it how do you target a SAM with even smaller RCS and IR signature . With MICA you meant ????
Targeting a SAM is worst scenario - Every battery will keep firing until you run out of missile and once in battle space it's not one installation that you tackle . Each SAM radar will keep data-linking threat to other linked battery to destroy completely
F18E surely is miles ahead

If you meant by destroying missile launchers ,
one - you no longer remain passive
second - you are giving away your own position

As you mention about cost wrt to weapons , any air-force would prefer cost-effective solution ? ? ?
But dosen't matter as i already said before , F18 comes with several restrictions and Growler is not offered .
Rafale is better than F18 for MRCA . ( Only for MRCA not as a jet itself that was my point )
 
Sancho & Prateek,

Great posts -- Keep 'em coming ...getting to learn some new things.....

I have silly reason why i love Rafale --- Its cockpit...

Its a work of art ...
 
Excellent post Prateek !! Hmmm you have forced me to do more research on Growler. I must admit - I dont like both 16 and 18...somehow Gripen seems to be a sensible choice for me --whereas Rafale would be my dream

Forgive me for intruding but let me post this old but informative article.

I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins.

The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs.

The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start.

Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach.

Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays.

Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet.

Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutting edge system. By the time it went from the drawing board to production, a period of over 10 years, it was barely able to match systems being offered by Israel and the United States on other 4th generation fighters. The Spectra self protection jammer simply lacks the processing power, flexibility, and diverse threat response range available on aircraft like the Super Hornet, F-16 block 60, or modern Israeli systems. Not only that, but because of nearly continual funding shortages in development, Spectra lacks now-standard features such as sophisticated towed decoys and next generation jamming waveforms that it simply lacks the processing power or antennas to produce.

Instead, what Spectra offers are relatively simplistic signals generated by its prominent but inflexible and simplistic transmitters.(Based on narrow-band, inefficient MMICs, a constraint imposed by the lack of a domestic supplier for more modern MMICs, the same issue that has plauged France's AESA program.) Spectra is perhaps the least crippling of the Rafale's flaws, because it could potentially be removed and replaced with a more modern system. Spectra tacks up a relatively large amount of space and power for what it offers, so a modern design could certainly do more with the same space and power supply, but France does not currently have the resources or certain key technologies to contemplate designing or building a system that would approach the power and flexibility of something like the F-35s EW system with its unparalled stealthy low power jamming modes.(and the ability to create incredibly powerful long range jamming modes if its AESA is used as a transmitter.)

So in summary, what went wrong? The Rafale was designed to match and compete with designs in operation in the early to mid 90s, but other design teams around the world were already moving ahead with generational leaps in stealth, electronic warfare, sensor fusion, and network centric concepts. By the time the Rafale design team recognized they had misjudged the direction of future designs, they lacked the resources and time to correct their mistakes. Now they are trying to find some way to obtain more money through exports so they can replace the Rafale's mid-90s radar, computers, jammers, etc so that they can at least keep pace with other 4th generation designs for a few years before being completely surpassed by 5th generation designs.
 
Forgive me for intruding but let me post this old but informative article.

Notorious eagle,

Yes i have seen this article and i take it that the author is not so fond of Rafale ...

I am not sure how he arrived at a conclusion for spectra when much of the information is highly classified....

There are some valid points most notable being the points about RCS -- but the fact is RCS for Rafale is still on a very low side.

However that being said - there is no denying the fact that Rafale and Eurofighter are a decade late !!! A decade earlier these planes would have been ruling our skies !!
 
@ LT.PRATEEK

Will reply to your last post in the MMRCA thread, to keep this thread on topic.

Forgive me for intruding but let me post this old but informative article.

Not sure how old that post/report (?) is, but it is far away from the reality, especially from the versions that are on offer for India at the moment (F3+/F4), but we should discuss it in the MMRCA thread.
 
Report about the RSAF:



Su 30 MKI and Mirage 2000 flybys:


 
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IAF OFFICER WINS MARATHON MEDAL IN FRANCE

New Delhi/Kolkata : July 06, 2010


Wg Cdr BS Reddy of the IAF's team at Exercise Garuda, participated and won a medal and accolade at the ALSACE Marathon in France recently.

Wg Cdr BS Reddy, an IL-76 pilot who was in France for the Indo-France Air Exercise travelled to Molshiem, Strasbourgh on the Franco- German border to take part in this famous 42.2 km marathon race. He was awarded a special recognition medal namely the finishers medal for his success at Alsace Marathon, an official marathon as per the World Marathon Association. This marathon run takes place on a circuitous route through the vineyards of North Western France.

Wg Cdr Reddy is a 40 years young pilot who has flown Mig-21s, Mig- 23s, Mig-27s and various trainers, and is presently posted in Chandigarh flying IL-76 aircraft. 'Ballu' as he is popularly called took to long distance running of late, after the Aviation medicine doctors advised him against other competitive sports like football and basketball at which he was proficient. Wg Cdr Reddy has participated in Delhi half Marathon in 2008 and subsequently at two full Marathons at Gurgaon.

Despite of hectic flying schedule of his squadron, he trains regularly for about 10-15 kms daily and does other cross-training calisthenics. Wg Cdr Reddy says, "I ain't no Forest Gump but running is meditation to me. With my heart beats and limbs settled to a musical rhythm while running, the mind is focused on beating my own best timing. It is sheer bliss sweating it out like this".

On professional front, Wg Cdr Reddy is on 'A' category flying instructor and has earlier served in Botswana, Tambaram and Airforce Academy on instructional duties. He has been a versatile flyer with rich experience on both fighters as well as on transport aircraft of the IAF.


PRESS RELEASE
 

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