F-104 Alas the Badmash.

[Ping]

Taking only damages and kills, and omitting unconfirmed and close calls from 1947 - 1971: (Includes Transports, Ground attack, Recon and Fighters)

Air to Air Kills

PAF:
Cannon kills 28
Missile kills: 11
Others: 2
Total: 41
Missile kill: 27%

--------------------

IAF:
Cannon kills: 31
Missile kills: 3
Others: 2
Total: 36
Missile kill: 8%

Cannon damages: 6
Missile damages: 3

Overall total: 45

Pakistani Air-to-Air Victories
Indian Air-to-Air Victories since 1948

 

[chindit]

Taking only damages and kills, and omitting unconfirmed and close calls from 1947 - 1971: (Includes Transports, Ground attack, Recon and Fighters)

Air to Air Kills

PAF:
Cannon kills 28
Missile kills: 11
Others: 2
Total: 41
Missile kill: 27%

--------------------

IAF:
Cannon kills: 31
Missile kills: 3
Others: 2
Total: 36
Missile kill: 8%

Cannon damages: 6
Missile damages: 3

Overall total: 45

Pakistani Air-to-Air Victories
Indian Air-to-Air Victories since 1948

Dude.. acig numbers are soooo outdated for both sides.
take for example, the indian kills

6Sep65 7 Sqn Hunter F.Mk.56 A.R.Gandhi 30mm F-86E 5Sqn/PAF (pilot Rafiqui)
6Sep65 27 Sqn Hunter F.Mk.56 V.K.Neb 30mm F-86E 5Sqn/PAF (pilot Hussain)
6Sep65 27 Sqn Hunter F.Mk.56 D.N.Rathore 30mm F-86F PAF

it is accepted that between the three, only two sabres were shot down

ditto for the pakistani version

6Sep65 5 Sqn F-86E A.K.Rafiqui 12.7mm Hunter F.Mk.56 7Sqn/IAF (pilot Pingale)
6Sep65 5 Sqn F-86E A.K.Rafiqui 12.7mm Hunter IAF
6Sep65 5 Sqn F-86E C. Chaudhry maneuver Hunter F.Mk.56 7Sqn/IAF (pilot Ghandhi)
6Sep65 5 sqn F-86E C. Chaudhry 12.7mm Hunter F.Mk.56 IAF
6Sep65 5 Sqn F-86E Y.Hussain 12.7mm Hunter IAF

sajad haider pretty much devastates the above claims in his book.

 

[chindit]

I'm quoting neutral sources, ACIG, which in itself takes from American sources of kills- at that time in the height of Cold war where Pakistan was close to U.S and Socialist India was cosying up to USSR!!
A Pakistani Air Commodore would mostly say that. And are you sure he said that in his book, or just making things up?
And that is not 40-50... I was trying to say 30-40% of the kills scored, not the whole fleet of IAF or Missiles hit probability! You responded after I edited.

Whether he is pakistani or paf is immaterial. judge the content , not the author. and i felt he was quite accurate . unfortunately his old site with all the tables etc is down.

 

[Ping]

I'd take a neutral source over their own countries published figures anyday. Tom Copper, is a respected figure in Aviation community. And what do you mean it's accepted? Did IAF accept it?

 

[chindit]

I'd take a neutral source over their own countries published figures anyday. Tom Copper, is a respected figure in Aviation community.

no disprespect to Tom Cooper . He usually does a good job colalting and analysing information but his sources are all secondary - published articles etc.

And what do you mean it's accepted? Did IAF accept it?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/History/1965War/PDF/1965Chapter09.pdf

Go to page 251 "Fg Offr Gandhi had fired at one F-86 and claimed hitting it. But no wreckage was found."

No wreckage == No kill.

I have also seen photos of the wreckage of the Halwara Sabres - There were always two. these are also displayed at IAF museum.

But the key to all this is, how many dead pilots or prisoners were recovered - only two. what happened to the third? what was his name?

This is exactly the problem i have with some of our paf fan club friends here. they keep claiming kills over and over but are silent as to where the wrecks are, who the pilots were etc.

 

[Ping]

That page has been updated on 2005. I remember the war history was leaked on 2000 by Times of India, but Indian govt didn't release it. Confusing over Gandhi and ack-ack kills? Maybe asking Tom cooper is the only way out. Rafique was killed in action in 1965 on that same day, but the wreckage was not found. That could be the reason.