Is Brahmos 3 times faster than Babur?

[ak56]

Googling shows that Babar's top speed is 880KMPH {less than 1 Mach}, and Brahmos is 2.8 Mach.

But 1 mach is even slower than Mirage. What is the purpose of using slower missile over faster fighter aircraft.

Is Babur a reliable delivery system? Please can someone clarify ?

 

[Quwa]

Googling shows that Babar's top speed is 880KMPH {less than 1 Mach}, and Brahmos is 2.8 Mach.

But 1 mach is even slower than Mirage. What is the purpose of using slower missile over faster fighter aircraft.

Is Babur a reliable delivery system? Please can someone clarify ?

Babur is a standard land attack cruise missile similar in concept to the Tomahawk - has similar speed as Babur. The Brahmos is shorter-ranged and is primarily an anti-ship missile with capability to engage land targets within its range.

There was a news report claiming that Pakistan was developing its own anti-ship missile.

 

[Neo]

Googling shows that Babar's top speed is 880KMPH {less than 1 Mach}, and Brahmos is 2.8 Mach.

But 1 mach is even slower than Mirage. What is the purpose of using slower missile over faster fighter aircraft.

Is Babur a reliable delivery system? Please can someone clarify ?

Babur and Brahmos are two totally different missiles, former being a subsonic cruise missile in the league of Tomahawk whereas Brahmos is as explained by Mark paimarily a supersonic anti ship missile, thery're not compareable.

Subsonic missiles are believed to be more accurate but have less impact compared to supersonic counterparts.

Mark correct em if I'm wrong.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

subsonic cruise missiles are more superior. they are stealthy, terrain-hugging, and more accurate. they can even be modified to drop bomblets, similar to CEM or combined effect munitions.

if supersonic missiles posed more of a threat, the US would have been using supersonic cruise missiles for more than 20 years. fortunately, that's not the case is it?

 

[TexasJohn]

Everything depends on the munitions used. Subsonic cruise missiles typically have longer range. However, this may not be the case. The Bramos is a derivative of the Yakont line of anti-ship missiles, but has been adapted for land and air launch. India just tested a ramjet version of Brahmos that is hypersonic..

Being subsonic, it's easier to shoot down.. and yes AWACS can detect it much easier.

 

[Keysersoze]

Everything depends on the munitions used. Subsonic cruise missiles typically have longer range. However, this may not be the case. The Bramos is a derivative of the Yakont line of anti-ship missiles, but has been adapted for land and air launch. India just tested a ramjet version of Brahmos that is hypersonic..

Being subsonic, it's easier to shoot down.. and yes AWACS can detect it much easier.

Actually Texas, subsonic cruise missiles are more stealthy. They have a smaller RCS and use a turbojet engine which generates a smaller heat signature. Also they tend to use low level flight which is again harder to detect without AWACS aircraft.

Supersonic missiles have to travel at a high altitude in order to get their range, They have a much bigger RCS and don't do land hugging flight patterns. Also they have a huge IR signature. Ergo they are easier to detect.

 

[blain2]

Everything depends on the munitions used. Subsonic cruise missiles typically have longer range. However, this may not be the case. The Bramos is a derivative of the Yakont line of anti-ship missiles, but has been adapted for land and air launch. India just tested a ramjet version of Brahmos that is hypersonic..

Being subsonic, it's easier to shoot down.. and yes AWACS can detect it much easier.

AWACS can detect it whether its sub or supersonic...there is no issues there.

Trying to extend range on supersonic cruise missiles is the real challenge. In some roles that LACMs are deployed, subsonic speeds actually increase lethality (in the case of sub-munition release).

Overall in the case of AShM, a supersonic cruise missile is a plus, however in terms of precision strike, range and flexibility, the subsonic cruise missiles offer more.

Also the very last comment about Subsonic being "easier to shoot" is a theoretical claim. In all of the recent wars where subsonic LACMs have been used, despite dense air defence coverage, very very few LACMs have been shot down. The chances of air to air encounters are even lesser even if the aircraft in the air are AESA equipped and have highly maneuverable AAMs.

 

[TexasJohn]

Key and Blain - good points here. My understanding though is that the Yakont / Brahmos only becomes supersonic at the terminal phase and at that point is almost sea skimming. Supersonic sure comes in handy when dealing with something like the Aegis system.

I would rather use a CWS on a subsonic missile than a supersonic, wouldn't you?

Of course I would also call the sound of a Phalynx going off as the "abandon ship" sound!!

RCS being lower on a subsonic, generally true, but RCS on a terrain hugging beast may not be much of a concern, dunno, I have to read more on it..

 

[blain2]

Key and Blain - good points here. My understanding though is that the Yakont / Brahmos only becomes supersonic at the terminal phase and at that point is almost sea skimming. Supersonic sure comes in handy when dealing with something like the Aegis system.

I would rather use a CWS on a subsonic missile than a supersonic, wouldn't you?

Of course I would also call the sound of a Phalynx going off as the "abandon ship" sound!!

RCS being lower on a subsonic, generally true, but RCS on a terrain hugging beast may not be much of a concern, dunno, I have to read more on it..

You may want to check it as far as I am aware Brahmos is supersonic along the entire flight envelope. If it went supersonic only in terminal phase, then it means it was going subsonic along the rest of the distance, if this indeed were the case then the range would have been better than the 300 km currently.

While sea skimming is possible for supersonic CMs, terrain hugging is an all other challenge for a Supersonic cruise missile to be able to handle. With Supersonic CMs, your hope is that speed will get you through the defences...subsonics rely on terrain hugging to do the same to navigate through the terrain better owing to slower speeds.

 

[vish]

The range of Brahmos was purposely "limited" to the current level in order to ensure Russia's complaince with MTCR. The range can be extended with some modifications. This would be done in India itself. This info I've got from BR. Though I despise the site for its prejudice, as far as technical details about the Indian weapon systems are concerned, that is one of the best sites to refer to. Whether it (the range extension) is currently being undertaken is something that I'm unaware of.

The range being "limited," can be "extended;" this is what my logic dictates.
However, the missile will get seriously heavy if its range is increased to 700km+. My thinking is that the range might be extended to a more manageable 400-500km.

I may be wrong though.

Further, Pakistan's cruise missile programs are well-advanced and following their own trajectory. In long-range subsonic cruise missile technology, Pakistan is well ahead of India.

 

[Amalek]

The range of Brahmos was purposely "limited" to the current level in order to ensure Russia's complaince with MTCR. The range can be extended with some modifications. This would be done in India itself. This info I've got from BR. Though I despise the site for its prejudice, as far as technical details about the Indian weapon systems are concerned, that is one of the best sites to refer to. Whether it (the range extension) is currently being undertaken is something that I'm unaware of.

The range being "limited," can be "extended;" this is what my logic dictates.
However, the missile will get seriously heavy if its range is increased to 700km+. My thinking is that the range might be extended to a more manageable 400-500km.

I may be wrong though.

Further, Pakistan's cruise missile programs are well-advanced and following their own trajectory. In long-range subsonic cruise missile technology, Pakistan is well ahead of India.

India is developing a sub-sonic terrain-hugging cruise missile similar to Tomahawk Cruise missile, and will rival Babur missile in accuracy and range...

Unfortunately, a terrain-hugging misslie is heavily dependant on the US GPS SatNav satellite constellation systems, and US may deny a country from using its GPS systems during wartime, rendering such cruise-missiles almost useless.

Russians are developng their own satellite GPS systems, and hopefully, it would be ready in time for the new subsonic cruise-missile.

Indian defense scientists have taken up a new cruise missile development programme. The missile named Nirbhay (The Fearless) is in the same class as the US's Tomahawk and will have a range that is 300km longer than Pakistan's Babur.

Nirbhay would weigh around 1,000kg and travel at 0.7 mach (nearly 840kmph) and would be capable of delivering 24 different types of warheads.

Nirbhay may have a range of about a 1000 km IMO.

Another rumour is that DRDO is developing a subsonic cruise missile Dhanush/Sagarika, with Russian and israeli assistance.

India plans to test launch its Sagarika submarine-launched nuclear-capable cruise missile in early 2008, according to Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) sources. The Sagarika, which is being developed by the DRDO, is reported to have a range of 1,200 km and to be capable of delivering a 500 kg warhead. The DRDO sources indicated that the missile’s first prototype, which is powered by a solid fuel rocket booster and a turbojet engine, should be ready for a test flight by early 2008

I feel its not worth investing in cruise missile Tech, when you're certain you can never match the level of research done by the US or Russian engineers. Even an SA-6 SAM can shoot down a subsonic cruise missile..

 

[vish]

Dhanush is a navalised Prithvi-II; it is a ballistic missile. It is operational and is carried by the Sukanya Class patrol craft of the Indian Navy.

I remember reading conflicting reports about the Sagarika (some reports wrongly mentioned it as a cruise missile). However, Sagarika is an SLBM. This I've checked with BR. Further, Sagarika is different from Dhanush; if I'm not wrong, it is the K-15.

Sagarika won't go into the ATV; its range is too short (700 km). DRDO is developing the Agni-III SL for that purpose. We are still two decades away from a submarine launched ICBM.

I'm aware of Nirbhay, and in all likelihood, it will use the Indo-Russian GLONAS.

 

[Amalek]

I've just read something very surprising...

BrahMos Supersonic Cruise Missile has a sea-skimming lo-lo flight profile range of only 120kms

290kms distance is achieved in lo/hi/lo flight profile

That seems a little less to be workable in real combat scenarios IMO. What do you feel?

 

[vish]

Well that is true... but they are working on pepping up the lo-lo range a bit more... so we'll have to wait and watch...