Missing persons: ISI, MI counsel says RAW and Mossad involved

[lem34]

Wow, that's an heck of a way to defend a spy agency. So you are okay for ISI to decide who is terrorist and who is not? Then why do you want a judicial system? Just ask ISI to decide it for you.

America lets CIA do this. What I seem to be seeing is that some Pakistanis and foreign elements want to hold ISI to higher standard than secret services anywhere else in the world

incredibly... same applies to u...

since u know RSS better than indians....

Asim get rid of this false flag troll. Go check his other posts

 

[daddy-ji]

America lets CIA do this. What I seem to be seeing is that some Pakistanis and foreign elements want to hold ISI to higher standard than secret services anywhere else in the world



Asim get rid of this false flag troll. Go check his other posts

why ban me...???what offensive i said..???
if i m not agree with u... then mods should ban me..

this is how.. u want to control PDF according to ur wish.. and want to see only +ve +ve.. and ban anyone who contradicts with u..

 

[lem34]

Can you name a crime that has been committed by the CIA against Americans? If the CIA exceeded its designated mandate it would be tried (as it has been on rare occasions) as well.

.

Not that difficult. Of course the majority of cases wouldn't be public. But the Judiciaries in other countries accept that National Security is something Judiciary does not interfere in

The Corbett Report | Courts Rule US Government Above the Law

18 October, 2011

Manhattan Federal Judge Alvin Hellerstein has declined to hold the CIA in contempt for destroying videos that it had been ordered by the courts to preserve.

The case revolves around 92 videos, depicting hundreds of hours of interrogations of detainees. The tapes allegedly contained evidence of torture, and the CIA was ordered by numerous courts to produce the videos in relation to lawsuits arising from torture allegations. The 9/11 Commission also demanded that the tapes be produced. Instead, the agency destroyed them.

Although the Obama Justice Department had already decided last year that no criminal charges would be filed for this blatant obstruction of justice, Judge Hellerstein’s recent ruling insures that the agency will not even face civil sanctions or so much as a contempt order for willfully breaking the law.

In his ruling, Judge Hellerstein, the very judge who had ordered the CIA to produce the tapes in September of 2004, notes that the agency had instead provided a description of what they say was on the tapes and “implemented new protocols” to insure that they don’t destroy evidence again, so there is no need to hold them accountable in any way.

Judge Hellerstein’s decision is not without precedent.

In 2010, Obama’s Office of Legal Council wrote a memo arguing the legality of Obama’s secret list of assassination targets, a list that apparently includes American citizens who have not been convicted or even charged of a crime. The memo was used as the legal justification for the extrajudicial assassination of Anwar al-Awlaki, a US citizen who the President ordered murdered early last year.

Now, the Obama White House is arguing that they don’t even have to show the justification for ordering the unconstitutional assassination of one of its own citizens.

Still, concerned citizens are attempting to challenge the Obama regime’s power grabs in court.

Earlier this year, Senator Wyden revealed that the federal government has a secret interpretation of the PATRIOT Act that allows the government much more power than is suggested by the wording of the act itself.

When Charlie Savage of the New York Times filed a Freedom of Information Act request for the interpretation, he was denied on the basis that the interpretation is classified.

Last week, Savage and the Times sued the federal government for refusing to release the documents. The case is currently before Judge William Pauley of the US District Court.

 

[Farah Sohail]

Asim... Why are u soo much against ISI? On ISI, u and Indians are on the same page.. Does it ring a bell somewhere? Indians are happy with your posts.... I would never want myself to be in such a position ever... The ppl, whom ISI captures, are NOT innocents...they are always...ANTI state elements...and the innocents, whom are gone missing, i am SURE are capturd/killed by enemy agencies like RAW, MOSSAD/CIA to put the blame on ISI... Only they would benefit by killing/torturing innocents to put the blame on ISI.. Are we so dumb to fall into enemy propaganda? Ok..lets think for a moment... What benefit would ISI ever get, to kill/torture innocents? Why would they want public to turn against them by killing innocents? Or..do u think..officials of ISI would one day think... Oh lets capture this Mr X and Y..? The next day, ok..lets capture Mr A, B, C, and lets torture them....must be fun....aah? Why would they ever do such a thing... Are they soo free or dumb? dont they have anything else to do?....As I said, only enemies of ISI gain from it, and do propaganda against ISI... And some of us are so dumb to fall into enemy trap.. This is what, pysochological warfare is...As for the judiciary, this judicial system, has not convicted a single terrorist,in these more than 10 yrs, judiciary has not punished a Prime Minister yet in contempt, who has openly done contempt of court in these 4 yrs on NRO judgement (even the blind can see, tht PM is deliberately doing contempt on NRO..only the judiciary can not see..they need MORE evidences)..judiciary is only delaying the process of contempt case, by giving date after date, but not punishing...tell me honestly..do u need ANY MORE evidence in contempt case? We can clearly see, tht judiciary is only delaying..and wants to save the SYSTEM..When, we can clearly see tht there is AMPLE evidence against PM, and yet the judiciary has failed to punish him, in 4 yrs yet..what makes u think, tht this judicial system would have not let terrorists free, saying the evidence is not credible or enough? Can we trust THIS judicial system? When ISI captures terrorists, we say tht ISI has captured innocents, and tht there is no proof of their involvement in any terrorism..(when we have clearly seen the state of our judiciary)...We do all sorts of propaganda against ISI...but when there are terrorist attacks, we again blame them for failing in their job?.. Can we give them a break plzz? If they capture terrorist, we accuse them of capturing innocents, but on the other hand, we again blame them of inefficiency, when these so called innocents(after getting free from courts) get involved in terrorism again... What do we want ISI to do actually? Have we considered it a must (like foreign media) to blame/accuse ISI anyways? Regardless of what they do, but we must accuse them, one way or the other...right?

Sometimes, i think, tht we deserve to be in a situation, like we are now in.. We do all sorts of propaganda against our defenders, (Army/ISI), accuse them, blame them who are sacrificing their lives for us, and yet we sympathise with those, who kill us...We have more faith in RAW and MOSSAD, but not in ISI? WOW....SHAMEFUL..Really!!..We are not ready to trust counsel for ISI, who says tht RAW and MOSSAD are involved in missing persons, but SOMETHING ( dont know...what..? plz enlightn me?) tells us to have faith in RAW/MOSSAD...and tht they are not involved in missing persons case...tht they are not the culrpits......but ISI must be the evil force behind this...arggh...what forces us to reach this conclusion? why such confidence in RAW/MOSSAD, but not ISI? Our enemies must be really happy at this situation... tht dumb ppl from us, are falling exactly in the trap, they wanted...

Sometimes, i think tht when someone like me, gets hurt at such accusations against our defenders(ISI/Pak Army) how hurt, must they(ppl in Armed forces and ISI) feel, when they would hear such blame games/acusations against them by their own country men? How would they feel when they know tht our public is falling into enemy propaganda, ignoring their sacrifices? How must they feel, when they know tht their own public trusts MOSSAD/RAW more, but not ISI? But the fact that they still are motivated and sacrifice their lives for us, i must SALUTE them...Long live Pak Armed forces/ Long live ISI...Love you

 

[lem34]

Pakistani businessmen decry ISI-bashing
Majyd Aziz


CIA, MOSSAD, MI-6, RAW, and of course, ISI. These are some of the well-known, respected, and feared organizations, generally known as intelligence or secret agencies, and are mandated by their respective governments or charters to undertake designated activities that are crucial for national security and national integrity of their motherland. Over the past many decades, other such agencies have been in the news and most of them have been infamous, not only in their own country, but throughout the world. Russia’s KGB, Shah of Iran’s SAVAK, former East Germany’s STASI, or the vicious gang of Haiti’s ‘Papa Doc’ Duvalier, officially known as MVSN, but contemptuously nicknamed by every Haitian as Tonton Macoutes. Each and every country, and there are 196 countries in the world, has some structured organization that could be termed as an intelligence agency.

What has become synonymous with these secret intelligence organizations is their portrayal in public as tough, conspiratorial, disregard for world protocols, ruthless, knowledgeable, and in many cases, ‘state within a state’. While accusations and proofs do manifest such thinking, the fact is that for these agencies, the primary objective is to protect and secure the nation from external and even internal threats, intrigues, and more importantly attacks in any manner and channel. Therefore, bashing the nation’s intelligence apparatus is in effect undermining the national security and national responsibility.

Over the last few years, a new thinking has developed in certain quarters and this is assuming ominous proportions. Whispers became words, words became print, print became online debates, and these debates resonated from small hamlets in the interior of Pakistan to the capitals of the world. What should have been nipped in the bud, or just gossiped in the parlors, was broadcast all over through the global megaphone. Suddenly, an organization whose prime objective is to ensure national security and to provide all possible intelligence reports and position papers to the armed forces is being unnecessarily compromised and even postings of the hierarchy have become subjects of pros and cons.

The impetus created by a civilian government to what it called bringing the organization under the executive in its fullest sense triggered warning sirens inside the portals of the well-secured enclave in Rawalpindi. A flurry of actions was immediately conducted and the executive backed down, albeit with a bitter taste in the mouth. Although the status quo was, and has been, maintained and the juggernaut in Islamabad’s Aabpara is functioning as before, the hard fact is that a pretty solid dent has been created in its armor. The invulnerable armor of the organization was further attacked in the back when a mischievous but poignantly damaging clause in the much-publicized lollipop from Capitol Hill called Kerry-Lugar-Berman Act desired that this organization be under true civilian authority. Again, the defenders of the nation brought much needed sanity and prevailed upon the residents of the two regal edifices in Margalla to understand the ramifications of this clause as it would not promote democracy but may unpleasantly damage the process of reconciliation and constitutional authority.

Ever since these externally initiated dents, pointing fingers towards Aabpara has become a favorite pastime for many who exert influence in this country. The self-styled liberals have joined in as a chorus and further exacerbated the situation without comprehending the sensitivity and insight of safeguarding the national strategic assets. Ironically, taking due course to the immortal words of President Harry Truman that “the buck stops here”, the focus has been on the decisions and actions of those who skippered the sensitive organization. The background of these actions has been scrutinized with a bias while opaque glasses are worn to justify the vehement opposition to what transpired behind closed doors.

 

[Farah Sohail]

You know..what i am most afraid of? Uptil now, ISI has been doing a brilliant job, despite some failures, which every intelligence agency has...ISI alone is fighting CIA, RAW, MOSSAD, and many others..and still holding their own....But we have been soooo sooo critical of ISI recently...every one bashes ISI continuously disregarding the sacrifices made by them... .but what if they get demotivated by the constant bashing in the media? I feel sorry for them...If I work hard endlessly, yet, I get accused for, by my own loved ones , whom I sacrifice everything for, a time would come.. I would say.. ENOUGH is ENOUGH...I wouldnt do anything for the ungrateful people...what , if ISI ppl start feeling like this?Can we imagine our situation then? Have we ever thought of such a situation? We would be at the mercy of RAW, CIA, MOSSAD and other enemy agencies.. Then we would know ISI's worth...and the reality of these enemy agencies, whom we trust, but not ISI... We must WAKE UP before its too late... ..... If ISI officials start thinking..whom are we making sacrifices for? Why are we disturbing our own families for the ungrateful ppl? I HOPE and sincerely PRAY...tht it NEVER HAPPENS...I would like them to know, tht despite constant bashing in the media, and some ppl fallng prey to the propaganda, but still MAJORITY of Pakistani public loves them (Pak Army and ISI)wholeheartedly..We value the sacrifices made by them..I know i will never come across an ISI official in my life, but.If I would ever come across an ISI official , I would just SALUTE and say.. We LOVE you....

 

[Awesome]

Not that difficult. Of course the majority of cases wouldn't be public. But the Judiciaries in other countries accept that National Security is something Judiciary does not interfere in

The Corbett Report | Courts Rule US Government Above the Law

18 October, 2011

Manhattan Federal Judge Alvin Hellerstein has declined to hold the CIA in contempt for destroying videos that it had been ordered by the courts to preserve.

The case revolves around 92 videos, depicting hundreds of hours of interrogations of detainees. The tapes allegedly contained evidence of torture, and the CIA was ordered by numerous courts to produce the videos in relation to lawsuits arising from torture allegations. The 9/11 Commission also demanded that the tapes be produced. Instead, the agency destroyed them.

Although the Obama Justice Department had already decided last year that no criminal charges would be filed for this blatant obstruction of justice, Judge Hellerstein’s recent ruling insures that the agency will not even face civil sanctions or so much as a contempt order for willfully breaking the law.

In his ruling, Judge Hellerstein, the very judge who had ordered the CIA to produce the tapes in September of 2004, notes that the agency had instead provided a description of what they say was on the tapes and “implemented new protocols” to insure that they don’t destroy evidence again, so there is no need to hold them accountable in any way.

Judge Hellerstein’s decision is not without precedent.

In 2010, Obama’s Office of Legal Council wrote a memo arguing the legality of Obama’s secret list of assassination targets, a list that apparently includes American citizens who have not been convicted or even charged of a crime. The memo was used as the legal justification for the extrajudicial assassination of Anwar al-Awlaki, a US citizen who the President ordered murdered early last year.

Now, the Obama White House is arguing that they don’t even have to show the justification for ordering the unconstitutional assassination of one of its own citizens.

Still, concerned citizens are attempting to challenge the Obama regime’s power grabs in court.

Earlier this year, Senator Wyden revealed that the federal government has a secret interpretation of the PATRIOT Act that allows the government much more power than is suggested by the wording of the act itself.

When Charlie Savage of the New York Times filed a Freedom of Information Act request for the interpretation, he was denied on the basis that the interpretation is classified.

Last week, Savage and the Times sued the federal government for refusing to release the documents. The case is currently before Judge William Pauley of the US District Court.

Unfortunately the US has not been the same since the Patriot Act was passed which stipulates certain indemnities to the agencies. Which makes these actions well within the law. Consequently the same guarantees have not been given to the ISI by the legislatures.

 

[Awesome]

Asim... Why are u soo much against ISI? On ISI, u and Indians are on the same page.. Does it ring a bell somewhere? Indians are happy with your posts.... I would never want myself to be in such a position ever... The ppl, whom ISI captures, are NOT innocents...

Who says I'm against the ISI? Go do espionage and counter espionage, but when dealing with Pakistanis on Pakistani soil respect the law.

Why are you so concerned if Indians are happy or sad? Indians sadday mammay de putar nahi hain. Indians royen, hassain, maatam manayen, won't change the fact that the people you are saying are not innocents have never been proven guilty in a court of law. The law of Pakistan, the law that you and I have created through our elected representatives, states, that we are entitled to a trial with representation to be judged by competent bodies. You made this law. You did. Why did you make this law? Why didn't you make a law declaring ISI malik-ul-maut? Why didn't you declare ISI khuda?

Because that's absurd, true power belongs to the Pakistani public, we make the nation, we are the ultimate authority. Our majority vote on an issue is the law, the law states ISI can't hold anyone without representation, that's the law, that you make by being citizens of Pakistan and that grants you one vote every election day.

they are always...ANTI state elements...

Then explain to me why did ISI kill the book store wala or the Ambulance wala?

and the innocents, whom are gone missing, i am SURE are capturd/killed by enemy agencies like RAW, MOSSAD/CIA to put the blame on ISI...

How are you sure? They have failed to provide evidence. Tomorrow if someone from the ISI declares you a terrorist, what would be your recourse?

Let me remind you, that ISI produced these people in court when the court put in the pressure. Koi Mossad ya RAW se Court ne nahi nikala. Adiyala jail se niklain hain tumhare RAW and Mossad ke capture huay way log.

Long live Pakistanis and their freedom to be a pain in the *** for all those that want to subjugate us!

 

[lem34]

Unfortunately the US has not been the same since the Patriot Act was passed which stipulates certain indemnities to the agencies. Which makes these actions well within the law. Consequently the same guarantees have not been given to the ISI by the legislatures.

Asim mate this is not a recent trend in the west. What about the statements that I put on another thread from the British judiciary regarding the GCHQ case which was in the eighties where the highest courts in the land confirmed that their judiciary will not interfere or rule on matters of national security.

No one disagrees that in an ideal world or system you are 100% correct. Unfortunately we are some way off from that.

Oh and it would appear that you are saying that If the legislature say that ISI are above the law then that is in some way acceptable?? That's what's happened in America and you seem ok with that.

So what bothers you is a technicality rather than the practicality of it???

 

[lem34]

W

Long live Pakistanis and their freedom to be a pain in the *** for all those that want to subjugate us!

Well I could give you a long list of institutions and individuals that are more deserving of your freedom to be a pain the *** of than the ISI. So go there.

 

[SMC]

Buddy, all the powerful agencies of the world are working to nail ISI with some evidence. With OBL they came very close, but ISI had an out in admitting its mistake to avoid culpability. Pasha offered to resign, remember? If anybody had stronger evidence against ISI nobody would have been shy to use it.

And we support ISI in OBL, Mumbai, Indian Embassy in Kabul incidents just because nobody had any evidence. If god forbid, its proven that ISI supported terrorists, we cannot in good conscience as human beings support them.

That's my point. They've been accusing ISI since around 2007 now, yet they're unable to present any empirical evidence. What I am trying to say is.. they probably do have evidence against ISI, and if they don't, they'll have absolutely no problem manufacturing fake evidence against ISI. They can manufacture fake evidence like newspaper companies can manufacture newspapers.

But the fact is, if they do release their evidence (fake or real) against ISI to the media, ISI will release the evidence they have against them as well (fake or real). That's why they can't release their evidence to the public without facing major reprecussions.

If ISI is saying RAW, Mossad are behind it, banda pakar ke lao. Isn't this the same problem we have with the ISI. Their word is not good enough. Does this mean they are so gaye guzray that they don't know how to do basic evidence collection against people who are so heavily involved in Balochistan insurgency?

Kisi ek cheez pe toh maano. This jugga shahi cannot stand.

I think you need to read my post again. I am addressing this very same argument there.

RAW caught a Pakistani and proved his involvement, showed which village he was from and implicated the LeT.

Ok, you do realize that they've never, ever been able to prove Pakistani state involvement despite claiming so time and time again.

 

[Farah Sohail]

Asim.. I cant argue with you.. will just say a few words..thts it

How are u so sure tht ISI killed a ambulance wala or a book store wala? Any proof?

Abt the laws..no we havent made.they are not my representatives....you call the corrupt, inefficient, traitor, beghaiarat politicians our true representatives? I DONT... Zulfiqar Ali bhutto,one of those responsible for East Pak tradgedy (bcoz of his greed of power) made this constitution...He does NOT represent ppl like me....Now lets see, who has done the latest ammendments in this..18, 19, and 20th ....Zardari and gilani....Zardari , who wrote memo to foreign power..no he doesnt represent me...

About proofs in a court of law...how many more proofs does the court need to punish PM in contempt case? What else, other than contempt, has PM done, from the last 2 yrs on NRO case? Do we need any other evidence? Even blind can see, but what the judiciary done? They have failed to punish the PM, yet, and are just delaying the process, giving full opportunity to this inefficient man to rule as much he can.. court is in no hurry to act.This case is for everyone to see... Theres ample evidence, but Court needs more.... What makes you think, tht courts would not have let terrorist free, in spite of having ample evidence? Just take a look at PM case..when everyone knows tht PM has done contempt, except the court.. This judicial system is heaven for the guilty....

As for the Adiala Jail ppl, i never said tht ISI never captures ppl.. I already said tht those who are involved in terroist and ANTI state activities, ISI do capture them, bcoz they are NO innocents...

Just look at some history of these "innocent" ppl of Adiala Jail

http://www.zameer36.com/ViewArticle.asp?id=201

 

[livingdead]

Both India and pakistan catch low level intelligence operatives and show them on camera routinely.
I dont think anybody can deny role of any intelligence agency in another country. But blaming RAW for crimes like kidnapping people does not make any sense. It means RAW is diverting its attention to things which brings no tangible return to India.

ISI is on backfoot due to strong stand taken by court, and they just came up with same excuse. Even pakistanis wont believe that the missing persons (and random baloch turning dead, journalist's body found with torture marks) is work of foreign intelligence agency.

 

[Punjabbi Munda]

 

[53fd]

Unfortunately the US has not been the same since the Patriot Act was passed which stipulates certain indemnities to the agencies. Which makes these actions well within the law. Consequently the same guarantees have not been given to the ISI by the legislatures.

This is the interesting bit. As Aryan has shown in his previous posts, in matters of highest national security, even in developed countries like the UK & the US; the judiciary plays second fiddle or no role at all. National security trumps the judiciary. If you watch US Senate & Congressional hearings, they openly talk about empowering the civil society at the expense of the security establishment. When there was a halt on military to Pakistan, there were talks in the highest echelons of the US of increasing civilian aid. In other words, the US wants to use the Pakistan civil society as a counterweight to the security establishment, believing that empowering the civil society would weaken the security establishment. As the civilian establishment has been empowered, the ISI has been distracted time & time again from its main job; the distractions being the memogate case, the Saleem Shahzad incident, constant "leaks" against the ISI in the media from unnamed sources, rumors of a military coup, as well as other stuff.