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News for Mirage-2000 upgrade

Mirages are excellent fighters. Have been through the ages which explains the fan club.

I actually agree... Mirage 2000 is an excellent fighter jet.

One cannot forget the role these fighter jets played in Kargil war.

But still... what is the point? Why pay $40 million to upgrade one Mirage when IAF can buy a brand new Su-30MKI for $45 million? If Dassault is going to charge so much for the upgrade, then it is seriously jeopardizing the prospects of the Rafale in the MRCA competition.
 
ok i don't understand why the indians would prefer keeping the Bison but not an upgraded mirage? after all mirages were the work horse of the kargil crisis!

the mirage is a potent multi role aircraft and in terms of servicibilty is much better than any russian fighter around except for maybe the MiG21 that is to rugged.....even though it is almost a 30 year old fighter....(crashes of the MiG are due to ofcourse its exhausted structure you can't blame it for crashing after 30 years)!
 
ok i don't understand why the indians would prefer keeping the Bison but not an upgraded mirage? after all mirages were the work horse of the kargil crisis!

the mirage is a potent multi role aircraft and in terms of servicibilty is much better than any russian fighter around except for maybe the MiG21 that is to rugged.....even though it is almost a 30 year old fighter....(crashes of the MiG are due to ofcourse its exhausted structure you can't blame it for crashing after 30 years)!

yea i agree to a large extent here ... that is why my earlier post cast a doubt over the whole news ... its just price negotiation ..... in addition to the lucrative Indian defence budget, the ramifications for french as whole in terms of lost economic opportunities in india as a negative fall out is dicey .... reminds me of the sanctions post-nuke tests by India ..... US placed sanctions and French had a field day ..... at the end of the day the economics of the nation will determine the policy and not the nitty-gritty actions of the negotiation teams ......

Mirage 2000 upgrades will proceed ..... as scheduled ...
 
That 40 million dollars includes training, spares, and all the necessary assistance. .

Wrong. The deal doesnot talk about all the necessary assistance for the quoted price. The IAF is finding the 40 Million $ tag very high because it doesnot include strengthening the airframe. The aircraft has already flown for nealy 2 decades with the IAF and further duration will depend on the strength of the airfarme. So it is useless to go for upgrades and not upgrade the airframe. Had the airframe upgrade cost been included in the quoted price then it would have been ok. But for the quoted price and stated upgrades the French are nothing short of being plain greedy.

the 45 million dollars MKI price is only the fly away cost which does not include the plant, spares, training, etc..

The total cost of the Su-30MKI comes to around less than 60 Million $ per aircraft, which is very resonable given the type of equipment it is.

You need to take a look at AC deal with Russia if you wanna talk about "rip off".

French package for thunders is infact one of the best.

Inspight of the cost escilation and the time delay the AC deal with Russia cannot be called a rip-off by any means. Earlier we where getting it dirt cheap now its just cheap. Look at how much an AC costs and compare it with the Goshkov deal (including the equipment that is to come with it), you will find that it is still a resonable deal indeed.
 
Inspight of the cost escilation and the time delay the AC deal with Russia cannot be called a rip-off by any means. Earlier we where getting it dirt cheap now its just cheap. Look at how much an AC costs and compare it with the Goshkov deal (including the equipment that is to come with it), you will find that it is still a resonable deal indeed.

How much does an AC cost ?
i though the one India was building costs 2 billion.
 
How much does an AC cost ?
i though the one India was building costs 2 billion.

Price of an AC depends on type and size of the carrier. The US super carriers cost in excess of 10$ Billion. The traditional Russian AC like the Goshkov cost around 6$ Billion.

The one that India is building is small AC compared to the Americans, initial price was supposed to be around 800$ Million but cost overruns and other equipment on it will bring it to around 2$ Billion as mentioned by you.
 
$41 million to upgrade one Mirage 2000?! Is Dassault out of its mind?

One wonders how much Dassault will charge to upgrade Rafale. $100 million maybe?

LOL... that explains why Dassault looses most of the fighter jet contracts it bids for.

But an uncompromising price tag also indicates the confidence in the Quality of the aircraft and the upgrade

:cheers:
 
yea i agree to a large extent here ... that is why my earlier post cast a doubt over the whole news ... its just price negotiation ..... in addition to the lucrative Indian defence budget, the ramifications for french as whole in terms of lost economic opportunities in india as a negative fall out is dicey .... reminds me of the sanctions post-nuke tests by India ..... US placed sanctions and French had a field day ..... at the end of the day the economics of the nation will determine the policy and not the nitty-gritty actions of the negotiation teams ......

Mirage 2000 upgrades will proceed ..... as scheduled ...

I still dont get it. If it costs 40million$ for upgrading one plane, why not buy an additional planes via MRCA. What is the point in upgrading an old plane and paying for as much a new one.

Would you not think buying Gripen ($40 million each), or two F16's ($18 million each) would be more useful.

So instead of spending money to upgrade 50 mirages, we could buy 100 F16 block 60/70. Which will be more potent solution?
 
I still dont get it. If it costs 40million$ for upgrading one plane, why not buy an additional planes via MRCA. What is the point in upgrading an old plane and paying for as much a new one.

Would you not think buying Gripen ($40 million each), or two F16's ($18 million each) would be more useful.

So instead of spending money to upgrade 50 mirages, we could buy 100 F16 block 60/70. Which will be more potent solution?

16 million each for an F-16 who the hell told you that ?
Those babies cost 50 million +
 
16 million each for an F-16 who the hell told you that ?
Those babies cost 50 million +

Thanks, but my question stands. Why pay about the same amount for upgrades when you can buy new?

It is like buying AC for India - pay for almost new price for AC for an older damaged AC.
 
Thanks, but my question stands. Why pay about the same amount for upgrades when you can buy new?

It is like buying AC for India - pay for almost new price for AC for an older damaged AC.

who says we are prepared to pay more? price negotiations are on .... and upgrade per plane is not that figure which is being quoted ....... its a figure from the imagination of someone .....
 
Growler mentioned That PAF are getting a "great deal for Thunder upgrade in earlier post"

Can somebody plz confirm and provide a link.

My question remains the same to PAF fan boys and all

IF A french built mirage 2000H cost $40m each to upgrade with new weapons and radar/avionics ....... How much will it cost to upgrade Thunder with the same + potentially new engine too. ???????

Surely to upgrade a chinease built fighter will cost more tham upgrading mirage 2000 ???????/
 
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New Delhi December 05, 2009,

French President, Nikolas Sarkozy, has thrown his weight behind the Rs 10,000 crore bid by French company, Thales, to upgrade the Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 fighter fleet. Sarkozy’s defence minister, Hervé Morin, in New Delhi for a day, made his pitch this morning to Defence Minister AK Antony, telling him that President Sarkozy is keen on signing the deal when he visits India early next year.

Addressing a press conference after his meetings in South Block, Morin revealed that he discussed outstanding procurement cases, including the Mirage-2000 upgrade, with his indian counterpart. Morin said: “We are hoping that some of the procurement cases that are under way between India and France are finalised by the time Sarcozy visits.”

Through two years of negotiations, French aerospace major, Thales, and the IAF have been unable to agree on a price for outfitting India’s 51 Mirage-2000s with new radars, avionics, electronic warfare systems and onboard computers, which will make the aircraft battle worthy for another 15 years. From an initial offer of Rs 13,500 crores ($2.9 billion), Thales came down to Rs 10,000 crores ($2.1 billion). But even that is exorbitant; the IAF has let it be known that, instead of spending Rs 196 crores ($41 million) on each Mirage-2000, it would prefer to buy brand new fighters.

That hard bargaining, it seems, is working. Thales is looking to reduce its price by using Indian suppliers for a significant share of work and components for the upgrade. The IAF now believes that a deal could be close. A top IAF official, who is close to the negotiations, told Business Standard on condition of anonymity, “Thales is climbing down from its high horse and we will meet them halfway. The French President has given his officials a diktat that the Mirage-2000 upgrade deal must be buttoned up this year.”

That urgency is fully endorsed by French officials. One highly placed French industrial source asks rhetorically, “If the upgrade deal is not finalised, what else is there for Sarkozy to sign in Delhi?” :lol:

So far, during negotiations, Thales has argued that if India insisted on a cheaper upgrade for the Mirage-2000 fleet, it should be prepared to upgrade fewer systems. If, for example, the IAF was willing to upgrade only the weapons systems, the cost would be considerably cheaper. But the IAF insisted on a full upgrade.

Now, with Thales looking to source from India, there could be rich pickings for Indian avionics manufacturers like Samtel Thales Avionics, the joint venture that NCR-based Samtel Display Systems has set up with Thales. Components developed in France by Thales, will be manufactured cheaply in Samtel Thales Avionics’ high-tech facility near Ghaziabad, allowing Thales to lower its bid significantly.

Puneet Kaura, Executive Director, Samtel Display Systems, confirmed to Business Standard that, “Samtel Thales Avionics is going to be a major partner in the Mirage-2000 upgrade. We have negotiated with Thales for doing a number of work packages in the upgrade. This will also benefit Thales in meeting the offset liabilities that will arise out of this deal.”

For IAF planners the participation of Indian companies, including Samtel Thales Avionics, is a welcome prospect since they would be able to maintain and repair the upgraded avionics in India. The Indian companies would also handle “obsolescence management”, which involves redesigning avionics cards that need upgrading.

Thales was already on track to build avionics systems in Samtel Thales Avionics for a variety of Indian aircraft. These include the technologically advanced TopSight-I, the Helmet Mounted Sight Display (HMD) that Indian Navy MiG-29K pilots will use while operating from aircraft carriers.

Political push from Paris for Mirage-2000 upgrade
 
Ajai Shukla further reports in his blog that the deal may be sealed at USD 1.8 billion. Quite a bargain heh – considering Thales’ initial offer was USD 2.9 billion. IAF should take this price happily and hopefully it will pave the way for Rafale in the MMRCA contest.

Broadsword: French Defence Minister in Delhi: political push from Paris for upgrade of Mirage-2000

This goes a long way.
For India to see France as a reliable suppliers.

We would be Daft not to get the Rafael, given the current scenario
 

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