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Oerlikon 35mm: Stalwart of Pakistan Air Defence

Iran has protected Nuclear reactors with 1,700 Anti-aircraft. Not sure if I remember, it was easy to jam anti-aircraft in Iraq during Israel bombs 1982.

Pakistan is following Iran's Anti-Defence paths, we sort of behind.

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Oerlikon 35 mm twin cannon emplacement, Iran

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Oerlikon 35 mm twin cannon Skyguard (Samavat), Iran

A 35mm anti-aircraft weapon is already in use by Pakistan, where they manufacture, under, license, the Swiss Oerlikon weapon. The 35mm shells weigh up to 1.65 pounds (.75 kilograms) and have similar range to the older 40mm ones. This AAA (Anti-Aircraft Artillery) is still useful against helicopters and transports, and jets that are moving slowly over the battlefield.


Question is why not use this 35mm anti-aircraft experiment against NATO helicopters intrusion ?
 
They would be a waste of money if they were not radar guided and not connected to our central grid, but fortunately they are and for low flying aircrafts they are absolutely lethal. Its the same as using smart munitions, its first burst first hit. Don't worry about our Air Defence; from what i have been told we have the high, medium and low altitudes covered. Unless the Indians develop something equivalent to a Raptor, they cannot close our Air Space without us knowing.


Anti Aircraft Guns are not Blind
All anti aircraft guns whether radar operated / guided or manually operated get the early warnings directly or indirectly from a radar. So this notion of a manually fed and operated AAK AAK gun working in absolute dark and isolation is not true. They are an integral part of the air defence command. Just like China has its local militia that operates on 37mm guns. We also have Janbaz force that is raised from the locals and they form one of the many layers of our air defence system. They man our most basic or in a way older guns but they are anything but useless. Think of these unguided (in literal sense) AAK AAK guns as a force multiplier. A cluster of such batteries in an area augments the more sophisticated weapons.

Working of a Standard Air Defence system

Any Airdefence coprs in the world like Pakistan would have its own tactical radars up to corps level. (refer to video in the bottom) AD also has local Observation posts manned by mobile teams that inform about any hostile/ unauthorised air activity. The battery commander sits in the command OPs centre and directs the positioning (and fire) once getting information from the tactical radar operators and our mobile observers. Having a centralised air defence command that includes air force as well means that we can share information about any possible air intrusion (as in Pasbaan the video).

Anti Aircraft Artillery barrage
Once the air raid siren sounds, or any other method is used to sound the alarm. all gun positions (within their area of operations) are directed to move/ point their guns to the designated aerial position that is already rehearsed countless times. Every anti aircraft deployment regardless of its size or range is hooked up with the wireless so they will move themselves to, codded, positions and start the artillery barrage once the target is confirmed to be in their aerial chart (if you like) During night time their barrage is fired in a specific pattern to achieve the kill.

Just to clarify that the alert and fire commands are very short and simple words which carry a full rehearsed meaning about range, position, angle etc and whether to start firing or just point the guns to a certain positions. The Idea is not only to destroy the intruder within their area of effect but also forcing it to alter its course or even to “drum” it to a position where further air defence assets can shoot it down in case it manages to survive the initial anti aircraft guns fire. Think of this fire as the trenches, barbed wire and ditches in the sky that is meant to slow down or forcing the enemy into a Death trap.

Unless if its dark or heavy overcast the gunners (layers in strict Artillery sense) also make use of the very powerful telescopes on the either sides of the gun barrels while sitting in their chairs and moving the horizontal and vertical lines (in their scopes) to make a crosshair and commence firing. During night or heavy clouds the advance observation posts and command centre with the help of our own radars (plus air force ones if available/ needed) serve as the eyes and the ears and direct the fire in the well rehearsed pattern that either destroys the target or harasses it away from intruding it into their area of defence. In an other words if you call them area denial weapons with sky as an area instead of the surface. The very definition is a system or device that is used to prevent or traversing an area of land (sky in this case).
Reality of War
some of the discussion is stuck into an argument about usefulness of AAK AAK guns that are not radar guided. Fighting War is a very fluid process that can have unpredictable/ unfavourable situations. if communications are knocked down even temporarily then imagine the horror & frustration of people manning guns that are nonresponsive due to ariel jamming (all those years of training & hardwork gone to waste). So all world armies religiously make backup or contingency plans and learn it. (ask US marines why they still practice hand to hand combat & bayonet charge? (when they have M16s, M4 and .50 cals?). therefore in some situations the manually operated AAK AAK guns are a better choiceif you don’t want to give away your radar positions to the enemy when it sends a "bait" to suss out the defences. Imagine a low flying drone or an airborne artillery OP that comes within range of these guns, so instead of sending the Indian scanners all screaming, these guns will shoot down the target without giving away any radar signature, they are also immune to radar jamming by the SEAD operation. Its worth noting that these guns wont have to face the danger of the anti radiation missiles (AGMs) that home in on the electronic transmissions from the ground based radars & the SAM sites. Because there is nothing to track or seek for such anti radiation missiles. (if still not convinced then have a look at the website in the bottom about the Iraqi AAA kills. I have included a picture for reference, Pakistan uses the same Chinese versions)

Multiple Use of Anti-Aircraft Guns
When talking about the conventional anti air craft guns you got to think 2 dimensional (the first being the air role). These guns provide an excellent choice for the ground based suppression fire and taking out lightly armoured enemy vehicles and defending heavy artillery pieces from sneak attacks. In the current context imagine a TTP terrorist high on Hashish driving his vehicle to ram into a check post or an army forward position in Waziristan. I hope all readers understand what would happen to the vehicle & its driver. to obliterate the vehicle at range without any risk to the base & the gunners no radar guidance will be required. Both German 88mm and British 3.7 inch (90mm) heavy anti aircraft guns were used as a very effect anti tank weapon. like while their smaller cousins were used against lightly armoured vehicles & infantry.

Legend of Iraqi AAA during operation desert storm
Like I mentioned earlier, refer to the link in the end under the “more reading” regarding Allied aircraft losses to Iraqi ground based fire. Over 43% were result from AAA (anti aircraft artillery), 56% from SAMs and 1% due to unknown reasons. Now this is an outstanding performance for an army whose command & control, early warning systems including radars/ sensor arrays etc were decimated in the first wave of relentless Ariel assaults by allied aircrafts. Allies specifically ran SEAD/ wild weasel operations to knock out the Iraqi early warning systems and pretty much knocked out the eyes of the Iraqi air defence.. Following is an interesting read about the role of our AAK AAK regiment in East Pakistan. Like I mentioned in my earlier post. They were the ones that kept fighting till the end until they were told to lay down their weapons by the Dhaka central command.


Pakistan Army Air Defence
http://www.pakistanarmy.gov.pk/AWPReview/TextContent.aspx?pId=22&rnd=451


For More reading/ Analysing
Chinese Type 90 version of Oerlikon produced under licence
Type 90 Twin-35mm Towed Anti-Aircraft Artillery - SinoDefence.com

Anti Radiation missiles
Anti-radiation missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wild Weasel/SEAD
Boeing: News Feature - F-4 Phantoms Phabulous 40th

Orlikon & type 65 37mm firing

Allied Air losses in Gulf War
http://www.rjlee.org/aaloss.html


Dual role of Heavy Anti Aircraft Guns
90 mm Gun M1/M2/M3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Military Acronyms, Initialisms, and Abbreviations
Military Acronyms, Initialisms, and Abbreviations

Pakistan Air Defence (from 1989 Paasban program bit dated but still relevant)

Iraqi AAA
http://image52.webshots.com/152/8/83/68/2660883680032813764UiCsdL_ph.jpg
 
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Because in return they have lot of things to experiment.

lol you are right
PAF chief was asked a similer question by a journalist regarding drones and he said yea we can shoot them down but next time they will come with fighter escorts that can escalate into war and thats a decesion that goverment has to make.
(anyway as far as the drone strikes are concerned they are coordinated by Pak Army/ ISI people on the ground that provide intell,)
 
lol you are right
PAF chief was asked a similer question by a journalist regarding drones and he said yea we can shoot them down but next time they will come with fighter escorts that can escalate into war and thats a decesion that goverment has to make.
(anyway as far as the drone strikes are concerned they are coordinated by Pak Army/ ISI people on the ground that provide intell,)


That doesn't make any sense.

Why send manned fighter escort with unmanned drones? Like why not use the fighters in the first place?

lol.
 
That doesn't make any sense.

Why send manned fighter escort with unmanned drones? Like why not use the fighters in the first place?

lol.

although I am getting off tpoc but just for once I will respond just to clarify that it does make sense.. PAF chief was responding to a question about shooting dowm drones ... he said we can
then he went on about possible outcomes and mentioned the most possible ones
(in case these drones are operating without Pakistans consent/ and Pakistan shoots them down)
So if US wants itsr drones to continue targetting Al Qaeda/ taliban they would like to ensure their safety
so they will like to neutralize any air or ground based threats.. untill that desnt happen they will continue with unmanned drones.
its not as absurd as it sounds my dear... when drone is able to do its job without any danger of getting shot down then why use aircover? but if that is a case the option is there... PAF chief explained it better.. lookup the video on youtube for more.. lets come back to the topic otherwise this thread will de-rail to all that drone issue, Anti- Americanism, Afia Sadique, Ghazwai hind, Zionists, Raymond Davis, Namoos Risalat, Hadood Ordinance and Shariya law etc.. all are very important issue but they are being talked in their own threads.

thanks
 
lol you are right
PAF chief was asked a similer question by a journalist regarding drones and he said yea we can shoot them down but next time they will come with fighter escorts that can escalate into war and thats a decesion that goverment has to make.
(anyway as far as the drone strikes are concerned they are coordinated by Pak Army/ ISI people on the ground that provide intell,)

Doing a messy job they are bro... They have killed a lot (a LOT) of innocent people on the ground... in Pakistan... a land that the Army is supposed to defend!!!
 
ok so which planes we fly against the Indian ack-ack guns. We don't have any WrathDogs & besides India or I should say Russian Helis are quiet relatively formidable
 
ok so which planes we fly against the Indian ack-ack guns. We don't have any WrathDogs & besides India or I should say Russian Helis are quiet relatively formidable

the A-10 Warthong is an American "exclusive toy" it only flies once the enemy airforce and ground based airdefence has been destroyed or is almost ineffective. any other country would rather use its helicopter gunships for that purpose (that are able to sneak out from the trees and hills). secondly these weapons are mainly anti armour whereas we are talking airdefence here.

re your questions
Mirage 5 with Rore upgrades are specially configured for day/ night strike role
both F-16s and JF-17s are Multirole fighters capible of firing the AGMs for SAMs and other munition for degrading the airdfence systems. for further details you can lookup the Aviation section
as usual for a start wiki is a good source with important details in one place
Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Here is good article from another webpage about how a multi-layered defense can mean trouble for the air-power of the enemy.

Keep in mind Yugoslavia used all they had, from low level guns/manpads to S-125/75

NATO Strategy Backfires
 
We are missing a very strong point here. The lands in South Waziristan until the PA Operation and now of the North Waziristan are shown on the map as Pakistan but are not in actual fact. Any land belonging to a country should follow her laws and abide by her constitution. Until recently no writ of Pakistan’s parliament or Pakistani law was applicable in South Waziristan. Similarly GOP writ does not apply in North Waziristan. If PA goes into North Waziristan, it will be resisted with force of arms. Pray tell me how can PA defend the areas where they are not even allowed to enter???

No sane Pakistani will ever approve or defend drone attacks on the motherland, but at the same time these areas must accept that they are part of Pakistan. Regret to say the Taliban don’t. Have we forgotten what TTP did to PA soldiers in Swat? In case we have; captured soldiers were beheaded! How can we expect PA to defend these butchers?

Drone attacks should stop but the methods adopted should be nonviolent such as cutting off supplies to NATO forces in Afghanistan. I for one would not support down inviting US/NATO retaliation which is bound to follow if PA starts shooting down US drones.
 
^^
A more potent solution to this is :
I have read that Iranians are feeling quiet irked at the way we are handling terrorists so why not giv them a chance!! to come to those VIOLENT areas [along with their land forces] & cut the Talibans out. This way any drone attack if unfortunately kill an Iranian you better know what that means; Iran mulling Israel & what not!
 
^^
A more potent solution to this is :
I have read that Iranians are feeling quiet irked at the way we are handling terrorists so why not giv them a chance!! to come to those VIOLENT areas [along with their land forces] & cut the Talibans out. This way any drone attack if unfortunately kill an Iranian you better know what that means; Iran mulling Israel & what not!

dont be silly please
no other country should be allowed into our own land.. if we cant handle it then why have an army? Iran can do what Afghan and NATO forces should do..
increase their border posts and stop the cross border movement... where they suspect the more frequent movement.

by the way the thread is about Air defence.. we are already talkiing terrorism in a different section.
 
the A-10 Warthong is an American "exclusive toy" it only flies once the enemy airforce and ground based airdefence has been destroyed or is almost ineffective. any other country would rather use its helicopter gunships for that purpose (that are able to sneak out from the trees and hills). secondly these weapons are mainly anti armour whereas we are talking airdefence here.
That would also apply to the Sturmuvik and Henschell 129 tank busting aircraft of WW2 vintage ... (except there weren't attack helicopters available in those days).

A-10 development was influences by the Vietnam experience, which highlighted the inadequacies of fast jets in CAS in those days, while combat helicopters didn't exist except for in the US service. Keep in mind what A-10 was primarily (re)designed for: busting up hordes of approaching Soviet tanks in the process of overrunning (West) Germany and the rest of Western Europe. It is the flying variation of a Goalkeeper CIWS, which in addition can carry twice the load (7.5 tons of ordnance, which I don't see any combat heli do) at higher speed over twice the range of an Apache. It is designed to fly and fight in dangerous environments, under fighter cover. The A-10 is exceptionally tough. Its strong airframe can survive direct hits from armor-piercing and high-explosive projectiles up to 23 mm (comparable to AH-64).

Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While it may be so that others use combat helicopters for this role, it may not automatically be concluded that they prefer a combat heli to A10. In fact, many nations coould not, and cannot afford (or not without aid) to have sophisticated attack helicopters and when they do get them, they aren't all of the caliber of the AH-64 or subsequently developed modern attack helicopters. So it is hardly surprising then that these countries (also) forego a dedicated tank killing jet like A-10. Don't underestimate the power of the budget ....
 
I see, no drone strikes have taken place in the NW since the Davis episode.
Before that there were at least 2 every week.

Someone shed light on it?
 

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