PAK pilots on Sukhoi's

[nomi007]

really sher dil 'lion heart'

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Based on how the training is going on with Sukhois I am sure that with in 1 year once the training will complete we could expect J11 coming to Pakistan The instructor`s training will finish in 1-1.5 years after which I think we will see some j11

If we analyse things it started with Rumors that Pakistani Pilots were flying Sukhois, and then it gradually got more common news as we see from pictures about.

The thing we can definitely say now is that Pakistan is seriously considering the J11 plane

a) It carries more ammunition
b) Its superior plane in term of performance with Chinese avionics
c) Air superiority role

If we really were considering other planes we would not invest time to send 3-5 pilots to China to get trained on
Its very very obvious that these first batch of Ace pilots are there to learn how to fly the plane , as part of their training to teach other Pilots of Pakistan Airfroce . Of course we don`t want to order planes and then wait 2-3 years for the pilots to get trained and then we induct.

We are on a fast track , get batch of pilots trained 5-10 pilots, they come home share their experience with other pilots in classes, and simulators and with in 1-2 years we can induct J11 planes for our Airforce.

In order to Lead Asia along with Chin and other nations

If the purpose was just to find weaknesses in plane I am sure they could have just watched videos or 1 pilot etc could have evaluated but this program to exchange pilots is done on a Bilateral basis to promote cooperation between to great nations


This is how Envision the Program for J11:
1- Training of Instructors between 2009-20011 get 10 pilots trained as instructors, advance flights and maneuvers

2- Order the J11 batch around August or March 23 as part of national goals for bringing in new planes - may be 2012 or 2013

3- Official get 36 planes around 2015-2017 which is close to date when India will get its MRCA planes start to arrive in India , obviously there is a huge line (wait line for India) but for Pakistan , its fast track due to J11 being a new plane (and vastly improved plane)

 

[DARKY]

I am not sure how the mini-AWACS thing is relevant, but in a WVR mixup, with a similar visual scheme.. it is possible for pilots to mistake a grey su-30 with another similarly colored grey su-30. IR seekers with the HMS o not differentiate.. and unless the pilots keep glancing into the cockpit to see their SA picture. There will be mistakes. on both sides, since PAF forces could mistake their own Su-30s for the IAF ones.
Has happened before as well, IAF has almost shotdown its own canberra's mistaking them for B-57's.. and A EB-57 was shot down by PAf gunners mistaking it for a canberra. it could happen back then with all the time to spare.. chances are that it could happen today in the heat of the moment.

I guess you do realize that Indian flankers posses a special IFF system.......its not 60s or 70s......the pilots are informed about every single plane in the vicinity......About the bolds arts I would dare to add here that........in near future with the coming of Stealth fighters armed with long range BVR missiles like Adder-PD i.e. extended ranged version of R-77 with 160 km range, METEOR with 110+ km range.......and long range AAM.......AWACS killers like K-172 Novator the Conventional AWACS would become absolute in initial combat stages.........they would be blown down with ease......hence there level of networking between Combat planes to share data would increase.......giving a better picture than an AWACS.......flanker with the luxury of highly powerful Radars can easily cover more area than an AWACS if data linked in good numbers........About Indian flankers being a mini AWACS is very correct as they can feed their data to other small aircrafts to make an engagement without getting themselves in the engagement zone.........thats how Mig 21 bisons made BVR kills on F-15 during cope-India air exercises......even though their small radars could not detect F-15s even at 50 km.........flankers can stay out and Mig 21 bisons can do the job........easily due to their small size detecting them won't be an easy job......and thats what Tejas was has been designed to do......it has even smaller RCS than a Mig 21 bison..... thanks to the design, CFC body and RAM coatings !!

 

[ironman]

I am not sure how the mini-AWACS thing is relevant, but in a WVR mixup, with a similar visual scheme.. it is possible for pilots to mistake a grey su-30 with another similarly colored grey su-30. IR seekers with the HMS o not differentiate.. and unless the pilots keep glancing into the cockpit to see their SA picture. There will be mistakes. on both sides, since PAF forces could mistake their own Su-30s for the IAF ones.
Has happened before as well, IAF has almost shotdown its own canberra's mistaking them for B-57's.. and A EB-57 was shot down by PAf gunners mistaking it for a canberra. it could happen back then with all the time to spare.. chances are that it could happen today in the heat of the moment.

A good read..

Fighter Tactics

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

ever heard of j11bs?

These planes look like elegant swans

 

[DARKY]

Not of now.. since launch..
the problem is with the limitations of HMS used..
The JSF's HMS will allow a pilot to track a target in its blind zone.. i.e see underneath..or something at his 5 or 7 o clock..
and shoot.
The math that is being presented that the TVC will escape the "restrictions" to conventional HMS is ridiculous..
there is a difference in swinging the jets nose around to shoot.. and swinging the jet so that the target comest to your 3 or 9 o clock to shoot.

If.....only the pilots head were a clock !!!.......A combat fighter maneuvering at about 2 Mach performing high alpha turns.........how would a pilot so quickly move his head 180 degrees what about the HUD who will look at the HUD !!..........Talk of JHMS of F-35 you do.....but fail to realize that its not only USAF.....which would have such a fancy piece.......by the time JHMS come up with them......fighters similar accessories would be seen in other Air forces.......and you would have a TVC equipped flanker with JHMS cued with a R-74X missile upto 360 degrees in 3D......what would trhe F-35 do there?

P.S.
EF 2000 had already offer such a JHMS in the MMRCA deal.......don't know about Rafael though.

 

[shehbazi2001]

Sorry but am not sure on the above part.

Sukhois (atleast those of IAF) are part of IAF's networked command system. Actually its not difficult to tell as to which pane is your and which is not.

Sukhoi's can interlink with each other and can operate as mini-AWACS themselves.

So I am not sure about Fulcrums and Jaguars, but somewhat sure that Su's cannot be mixed so easily with the enemy fleet.

While it is true that in the presence of AWACS and advanced IFF systems, it is difficult to disguise foe as friendly, still fratricide and confusion in the heat of close combat can't be neglected.

During the Gulf War, two USAF F-15s destroyed their own helicopters because their IFF sets were switched off. IFF set can also get damaged during battle.

Then looking at the India-Pakistan border length, roughly three AWACS shall be needed for radar coverage. Even if a single AWACS is taken out, Situational Awareness of the airspace shall decrease, opening the window for disguising schemes of friendly and foe. But its not the dominating factor. The fighter jets of aggressor unit can fight like normal PAF jets with IFF on or off.

 

[Imran Khan]

really sher dil 'lion heart'

gher jany de in shab ki bewi ne khaber leni hai achi trah se

 

[SQ8]

I guess you do realize that Indian flankers posses a special IFF system.......its not 60s or 70s......the pilots are informed about every single plane in the vicinity......About the bolds arts I would dare to add here that........in near future with the coming of Stealth fighters armed with long range BVR missiles like Adder-PD i.e. extended ranged version of R-77 with 160 km range, METEOR with 110+ km range.......and long range AAM.......AWACS killers like K-172 Novator the Conventional AWACS would become absolute in initial combat stages.........they would be blown down with ease......hence there level of networking between Combat planes to share data would increase.......giving a better picture than an AWACS.......flanker with the luxury of highly powerful Radars can easily cover more area than an AWACS if data linked in good numbers........About Indian flankers being a mini AWACS is very correct as they can feed their data to other small aircrafts to make an engagement without getting themselves in the engagement zone.........thats how Mig 21 bisons made BVR kills on F-15 during cope-India air exercises......even though their small radars could not detect F-15s even at 50 km.........flankers can stay out and Mig 21 bisons can do the job........easily due to their small size detecting them won't be an easy job......and thats what Tejas was has been designed to do......it has even smaller RCS than a Mig 21 bison..... thanks to the design, CFC body and RAM coatings !!

If.....only the pilots head were a clock !!!.......A combat fighter maneuvering at about 2 Mach performing high alpha turns.........how would a pilot so quickly move his head 180 degrees what about the HUD who will look at the HUD !!..........Talk of JHMS of F-35 you do.....but fail to realize that its not only USAF.....which would have such a fancy piece.......by the time JHMS come up with them......fighters similar accessories would be seen in other Air forces.......and you would have a TVC equipped flanker with JHMS cued with a R-74X missile upto 360 degrees in 3D......what would trhe F-35 do there?

P.S.
EF 2000 had already offer such a JHMS in the MMRCA deal.......don't know about Rafael though.

I really still dont see the point in your first post.

And your second posts sounds ridiculuos..
Do you know that 95% of the battles after vietnam were fought in the transonic range??
I pray you know what transonic means.
That F-15 driver's regularly practice for the off boresight Aim-9x shot after the merge.. that is them pulling anywhere from 6-8g's.
All you have brought to me.. is nothing more than MKI! MKI!! MKI!! MKI!

 

[Last Hope]

Well.

One thing.
1) Either they are training PAF pilots to fly the Su-**s or counter them. We heard about J-11 and J-15 (Pakistan's own interest).
2) Can someone point out the rank of the pilots? That may be an issue, after they are back home, they may help train other pilots too (about their experience)

 

[Imran Khan]

Well.

One thing.
1) Either they are training PAF pilots to fly the Su-**s or counter them. We heard about J-11 and J-15 (Pakistan's own interest).
2) Can someone point out the rank of the pilots? That may be an issue, after they are back home, they may help train other pilots too (about their experience)

j-15 seems to me imposible dear but j-11 was in news which now dead news.

abut ranks of pilots first one is clearly SQN.leader and another's shoulder is invisible we can not se rank.

 

[Last Hope]

j-15 seems to me imposible dear but j-11 was in news which now dead news.

abut ranks of pilots first one is clearly SQN.leader and another's shoulder is invisible we can not se rank.

Naval forces were interested in J-15s.

 

[Imran Khan]

Naval forces were interested in J-15s.

when last time naval forces got a new flying machine let alone fighter jet?our naval forces will got jets only if they got jf-17 sir .look at naval air arm and its history you will never surprise .

 

[DARKY]

I really still dont see the point in your first post.

You would have seen if I had said a J-11 coupled with good radar and data link would do the same job for a JF-17 aircraft.

And your second posts sounds ridiculuos..
Do you know that 95% of the battles after vietnam were fought in the transonic range??
I pray you know what transonic means.
That F-15 driver's regularly practice for the off boresight Aim-9x shot after the merge.. that is them pulling anywhere from 6-8g's.
All you have brought to me.. is nothing more than MKI! MKI!! MKI!! MKI!

We are supersonic now !!.......and 95 % of air-superiority battles would be fought in supersonic range.......again you come up with the air combat scenario more than 4 decade back.......F-15 have two jocks.....where one can always have an eye on HUD and flight controls while the other can dance in his cockpit...........The target would be pulling turns at 9+ gs.....literally swinging on its axis and changing positions........again I would say similar system is what a high maneuvering target would also have.....whats you point here??

We have 200+ posts discussing about possibilities of a Flanker in your PAF but you still has to some how come up with MKI.......Is it that hard to get in your head that J-11 can be modified with such systems??

 

[SQ8]

You would have seen if I had said a J-11 coupled with good radar and data link would do the same job for a JF-17 aircraft.



We are supersonic now !!.......and 95 % of air-superiority battles would be fought in supersonic range.......again you come up with the air combat scenario more than 4 decade back.......F-15 have two jocks.....where one can always have an eye on HUD and flight controls while the other can dance in his cockpit...........The target would be pulling turns at 9+ gs.....literally swinging on its axis and changing positions........again I would say similar system is what a high maneuvering target would also have.....whats you point here??

We have 200+ posts discussing about possibilities of a Flanker in your PAF but you still has to some how come up with MKI.......Is it that hard to get in your head that J-11 can be modified with such systems??

Who said that?? They said the same back in the 50's, din happen.. they said the same back in the 70's.. din happen.. said the same about 90's.. din happen.

Oh Im sure two heads are better.. but then the USAF must be idiots to bank on their single seaters in a fight. Every other fight that has happened in the past only had two seaters successful?? The F-22 is a single seater.. idiots these Americans. The F-35... a single seater.. idiots again.
And this fictional target that can swing around continuously at 9g's... unbelievable. People are, have and will continue to engage in aircombat successfully in single seaters.. pilots have, can and will be able to crane their heads around to look at targets as they have for the last 50 years at high G's. I cant accept flimsy speculations over decades of history. No respectable fighter pilot does .
Future fights will always be slash and dash.. there wont be swinging and dancing.. instant snapshots at merge.. and extending will most likely be the call of the day.


As for your second part..

I guess you do realize that Indian flankers posses a special IFF system
wonder who bought in the Indian in that...