Pak to buy U214 - Senate debating reports of faults

[joey]

This is very good news for Pakistan, U214 are great subs

 

[Neo]

Deal is supposed to be finalised by the end of this year.
I would prefer German subs over the French.

 

[joey]

 

[EagleEyes]

I didn't understand the above picture. Anybody please explain?

 

[PakSniper]

I didn't understand the above picture. Anybody please explain?

I will explain it Webby;

The picture shows an anti-torpedo countermeasures system which is designed to counter homing torpedoes, active/passive, lightweight and heavyweight, wire and non wire-guided, using jammers and decoys. The decoys are able to produce echoes of torpedo transmission.

The countermeasures system consists of two things Countermeasures launching system, mounted externally on the hull of the submarine (both sides). Control Computer which controls the launch of the countermeasures (operations room where the operator selects the type and number of effectors for the salvo to be deployed, everything it watched through a data link).

Step 1:

The jammer generates a high amount of energy spread over the entire reception band of the acoustic head of the torpedo. By emitting a high intensity broadband noise, the jammer masks the target echo as well as target radiated noise, preventing target acquisition by the torpedo.

Step 2:

The decoy uses a transponder to simulate a real target, generating echoes of any frequency emitted by the torpedo. The echo is equal to the one of a real target.

The external launching system contains its own air bottle, electro-valve and launching tube, thus remaining independent of all the other launch barrels the launchers don't move they are in a fixed position on both sides of the submarine.

Basically, the jammer masks the real target and confuses the torpedo, then the decoy has a transponder that emits echo's and creates itself as if it were a real target.

 

[con]

Deal is supposed to be finalised by the end of this year.
I would prefer German subs over the French.

what happened to the Marlin offer? There were lot of news about PN buying Marlins.

 

[PakSniper]

what happened to the Marlin offer? There were lot of news about PN buying Marlins.

It's still on the table just like the German sub is, nothing happened to it.

 

[Quwa]

I imagine the RFP for the 3 new submarines were sent out sometime in 2006. If the Neues Deutschland article is correct, then it means that the PN chose the U214 over Marlin. I hope we get IDAS with it.

 

[Keysersoze]

Pakistan ordered two systems of anaerobic propulsion MESMA, conceived and carried out by DCN Propulsion, close to Nantes.

This Air Independent System (AIP) will equip the first two submarines diesels with the type Agosta 90 B, delivered in 1999 by DCN Cherbourg and 2003 by the arsenal of Karashi. Built like the second unit in technology transfer, Hamza, launched this summer in Pakistan, was equipped right from the start with the MESMA. For DCN, the tests at sea of the building, envisaged in the next months, will be crucial, these tests being the first in natural size for the French AIP. If this countryside is conclusive, DCN can hope to take ascending some on its German competitor TKMS and its system containing fuel cells. Compared to a traditional propulsion, the enormous advantage of the AIP is to increase considerably autonomy in diving of the submarines, spending 4 days with nearly three weeks. Making turn a generator which supplies a steam turbine, the system functions according to the same principle as the nuclear propulsion, the hot source being replaced by ethanol. Direct consequence, the ship does not have any more needs to supply its engines in air via the snorkel. In the future, the fuel of the MESMA will be rather diesel, which will make it possible the submarines to embark one type of fuel. The first two buildings Pakistani, Khalid and Saad, will receive a new section of 9 meters containing the AIP, during a major maintenance action. Their length will be carried, as for first Agosta, from 67 to 76 meters and displacement in diving of 1760 to 1980 tons. In addition to this program, DCN always hopes to sell in Pakistan submarines of the type Marlin, or Scorpène. On this contract, the French are in competition with TKMS.

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=103971

 

[Quwa]

Looks like the number of SSKs required by PN is 4 not 3 as previously reported. So are they looking at a one-to-one replacement? If so, then they're poised to procure a total of six new SSKs.

 

[Neo]

From the German News service

Deutsche U-Boote für Pakistan?

Deutsche Firmen um die Kieler Werft HDW verhandeln derzeit mit Pakistan über die Lieferung von drei U-Booten. Das berichtet das Berliner Informationszentrum für Transatlantische Sicherheit (BITS). Demnach will Pakistan drei U-Boote kaufen und im eigenen Land zusammenbauen. Aus Deutschland sollen dazu vorgefertigte U-Bootsektionen geliefert werden.

Für mehr als eine Milliarde Euro bei dem 1,2 Milliarden Euro teuren Projekt solle der deutsche Steuerzahler bürgen. Das gehe aus einer internen Vorlage des Finanzministeriums hervor, die dem Haushaltsausschuss des Bundestages kürzlich vorgelegt worden sei, so das BITS.

Weiter fahren, länger tauchen, kaum zu orten

[Bildunterschrift: U-Boote des Typs 214 werden von in Kiel bei der Werft HDW gebaut]
Bei der geplanten Lieferung handele es sich den Angaben zufolge um U-Boote vom neusten Typ U-214, die speziell für den Export entwickelt wurden. Griechenland und Südkorea haben ihn bereits bestellt, die Griechen ein erstes Boot erhalten. Die 65 Meter langen Schiffe sind größer als die U-Boote der Klassen 212A, die die Bundeswehr beschafft. Sie verfügen über einen modifizierten Brennstoffzellenantrieb, der sie von der Außenluft unabhängig macht. Damit können die Boote deutlich größere Strecken absolvieren und länger tauchen als konventionelle Diesel-U-Boote. Zudem sind sie kaum zu orten. Die U-Boote sind mit acht Torpedorohren des Standardkalibers 533 Millimeter ausgerüstet, von denen aus Torpedos, Flugkörper und Minen eingesetzt werden können.

Pakistan - "problematisches Empfängerland"

Das BITS kritisiert das "scheinbar normale U-Boot-Geschäft", weil es sich bei Pakistan um ein "problematisches Empfängerland" handele. Innenpolitisch ist Pakistan höchst instabil. Die prowestlich orientierte Militärregierung Pervez Muscharraf läuft Gefahr, von radikalislamischen Kräften gestürzt zu werden. Diese haben starke Verbündete, bis hinein in den Pakistanischen Geheimdienst ISI. Muscharraf selbst hatte 1999 mit einem Militärputsch die Macht übernommen.

Dem Atomwaffensperrvertrag trat das Land nie bei. Seit 1998 besitzt es Atomwaffen. Der "Vater der pakistanischen Atombombe", Abdul Qadeer Khan, gilt als Kopf des internationalen Atomschmuggels, der Nordkorea, Libyen und Iran zur Bombe verhelfen wollte. Pakistan entwickelt erfolgreich Raketen und Marschflugkörper. Es arbeitet an Nuklearwaffen, die klein und leicht genug sind, damit sie von solchen Trägersystemen transportiert werden können.

Babur-Abschuss von See in Planung

Zu den Waffenentwicklungen zählt laut BITS auch ein Marschflugkörper namens Babur, der 2005 erstmals getestet worden sein soll. Noch werden die Babur-Marschflugköper nur von Land gestartet. Eine seegestützte Version ist nach BITS-Recherchen geplant. Demnach sollen künftige U-Boote Pakistans mit Babur-Flugkörpern ausgestattet werden.

Bundesregierung offenbar bedenkenlos

Die Bundesregierung hat offenbar keine Bedenken gegen das geplante U-Boot-Geschäft. Laut BITS begründet sie ihre Unterstützung für HDW und die Mutterfirma Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems (TKMS) rein wirtschaftlich: "Mit dem Erhalt des Auftrags würde der deutsche Exporteur in die Lage versetzt, die aktuellen Entwicklungserfolge in der Technik der U-Boot-Fertigung, speziell in der Brennstoffzellenfertigung zu festigen und langfristig zu sichern. Hinzu kommen die entsprechenden Beschäftigungswirkungen (...)"

Und die Regierung sieht offenbar Perspektiven für die deutsche Rüstungsindustrie. Als beleg zitiert BITS weiter aus der internen Vorlage des Finanzministeriums: "Der Auftrag bietet zudem die Chance auf künftige Aufträge, da die pakistanische Marine angabegemäß an einer langfristigen Partnerschaft interessiert ist." Wie BITS berichtet, möchte Pakistan später weitere U-Boote ordern und zeigt sich auch an deutschen Fregatten und Korvetten des Typs MEKO A200 bzw. A100 interessiert. Deren Hersteller, Blohm & Voss, gehört ebenfalls zu TKMS.

http://www.tagesschau.de/aktuell/meldungen/0,1185,OID6664168_TYP6_THE_NAV_REF1_BAB,00.html

 

[Neo]

Hope you guys speak German aswell
I'll try to translate.

 

[Introvert]

From the German News service

Deutsche U-Boote für Pakistan?

Deutsche Firmen um die Kieler Werft HDW verhandeln derzeit mit Pakistan über die Lieferung von drei U-Booten. Das berichtet das Berliner Informationszentrum für Transatlantische Sicherheit (BITS). Demnach will Pakistan drei U-Boote kaufen und im eigenen Land zusammenbauen. Aus Deutschland sollen dazu vorgefertigte U-Bootsektionen geliefert werden.

Für mehr als eine Milliarde Euro bei dem 1,2 Milliarden Euro teuren Projekt solle der deutsche Steuerzahler bürgen. Das gehe aus einer internen Vorlage des Finanzministeriums hervor, die dem Haushaltsausschuss des Bundestages kürzlich vorgelegt worden sei, so das BITS.

Weiter fahren, länger tauchen, kaum zu orten

[Bildunterschrift: U-Boote des Typs 214 werden von in Kiel bei der Werft HDW gebaut]
Bei der geplanten Lieferung handele es sich den Angaben zufolge um U-Boote vom neusten Typ U-214, die speziell für den Export entwickelt wurden. Griechenland und Südkorea haben ihn bereits bestellt, die Griechen ein erstes Boot erhalten. Die 65 Meter langen Schiffe sind größer als die U-Boote der Klassen 212A, die die Bundeswehr beschafft. Sie verfügen über einen modifizierten Brennstoffzellenantrieb, der sie von der Außenluft unabhängig macht. Damit können die Boote deutlich größere Strecken absolvieren und länger tauchen als konventionelle Diesel-U-Boote. Zudem sind sie kaum zu orten. Die U-Boote sind mit acht Torpedorohren des Standardkalibers 533 Millimeter ausgerüstet, von denen aus Torpedos, Flugkörper und Minen eingesetzt werden können.

Pakistan - "problematisches Empfängerland"

Das BITS kritisiert das "scheinbar normale U-Boot-Geschäft", weil es sich bei Pakistan um ein "problematisches Empfängerland" handele. Innenpolitisch ist Pakistan höchst instabil. Die prowestlich orientierte Militärregierung Pervez Muscharraf läuft Gefahr, von radikalislamischen Kräften gestürzt zu werden. Diese haben starke Verbündete, bis hinein in den Pakistanischen Geheimdienst ISI. Muscharraf selbst hatte 1999 mit einem Militärputsch die Macht übernommen.

Dem Atomwaffensperrvertrag trat das Land nie bei. Seit 1998 besitzt es Atomwaffen. Der "Vater der pakistanischen Atombombe", Abdul Qadeer Khan, gilt als Kopf des internationalen Atomschmuggels, der Nordkorea, Libyen und Iran zur Bombe verhelfen wollte. Pakistan entwickelt erfolgreich Raketen und Marschflugkörper. Es arbeitet an Nuklearwaffen, die klein und leicht genug sind, damit sie von solchen Trägersystemen transportiert werden können.

Babur-Abschuss von See in Planung

Zu den Waffenentwicklungen zählt laut BITS auch ein Marschflugkörper namens Babur, der 2005 erstmals getestet worden sein soll. Noch werden die Babur-Marschflugköper nur von Land gestartet. Eine seegestützte Version ist nach BITS-Recherchen geplant. Demnach sollen künftige U-Boote Pakistans mit Babur-Flugkörpern ausgestattet werden.

Bundesregierung offenbar bedenkenlos

Die Bundesregierung hat offenbar keine Bedenken gegen das geplante U-Boot-Geschäft. Laut BITS begründet sie ihre Unterstützung für HDW und die Mutterfirma Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems (TKMS) rein wirtschaftlich: "Mit dem Erhalt des Auftrags würde der deutsche Exporteur in die Lage versetzt, die aktuellen Entwicklungserfolge in der Technik der U-Boot-Fertigung, speziell in der Brennstoffzellenfertigung zu festigen und langfristig zu sichern. Hinzu kommen die entsprechenden Beschäftigungswirkungen (...)"

Und die Regierung sieht offenbar Perspektiven für die deutsche Rüstungsindustrie. Als beleg zitiert BITS weiter aus der internen Vorlage des Finanzministeriums: "Der Auftrag bietet zudem die Chance auf künftige Aufträge, da die pakistanische Marine angabegemäß an einer langfristigen Partnerschaft interessiert ist." Wie BITS berichtet, möchte Pakistan später weitere U-Boote ordern und zeigt sich auch an deutschen Fregatten und Korvetten des Typs MEKO A200 bzw. A100 interessiert. Deren Hersteller, Blohm & Voss, gehört ebenfalls zu TKMS.

http://www.tagesschau.de/aktuell/meldungen/0,1185,OID6664168_TYP6_THE_NAV_REF1_BAB,00.html

It means:

German subs for Pakistan
German companies around the Kieler threw HDW negotiate at present with Pakistan about the supply of three submarines. Reports citizen of Berlin the information center for transatlantic security (BIT). Therefore Pakistan wants to buy and in the own country assemble three submarines. Made of Germany in addition prefabricated submarine sections are to be supplied. For more than a billion euro with that the German taxpayer is to vouch 1.2 billion euro expensive project. That comes out from an internal collecting main of the Treasury, which was recently submitted to the budget committee of the federal daily, thus BITS.


Continue to drive, longer dip, to hardly locate
In the case of the planned supply act it the data according to around submarines of the newest type U-214, which was developed particularly for the export. Greece and South Korea already ordered it, received the Greeks a first boat. The 65 meters are enough ships are larger than the submarines of the classes 212A, which procures the German Federal Armed Forces. They have a modified gas cell drive, which makes them independent of outside air. Thus the boats can clearly larger distances complete and longer dip than conventional Diesel submarines. Besides they are hardly to be located. The submarines are equipped with eight torpedo pipes of the standard caliber of 533 millimeters, by which from torpedoes, missiles and mines can be inserted.

Pakistan - “problematic recipient country
The “apparently normal submarine business” criticizes BITS, because it concerns with Pakistan a “problematic recipient country”. Relating to domestic affairs Pakistan is most unstable. The military government Pervez Muscharraf oriented pro-Western runs the risk by radical-Islamic forces to be fallen. These have strong allied ones, to inside into the secret service of Pakistan ISI. Muscharraf had taken over 1999 with a Militärputsch power. The country never joined the nuclear weapon check contract. Since 1998 it possesses nuclear weapons. The “father of the atom bomb of Pakistan”, Abdul Qadeer Khan, is considered as head of the international atomic smuggling, which wanted to help North Korea, Libya and Iran to the bomb. Pakistan successfully develops rockets and cruise missiles. It works on nuclear weapons, which are small and easy enough, so that they can be transported by such carrier systems.

Babur firing of lake in planning
Among the weapon developments also a cruise missile ranks named Babur according to BITS, which is to have been tested 2005 for the first time. Still the Babur Marschflugköper is started only by country. A sea-based version is planned according to BITS searches. Therefore future submarines of Pakistan are to be equipped with Babur missiles.

Federal Government obviously heedlessly

The Federal Government has obviously no doubts against the planned submarine business. According to BITS it justifies its support for HDW and the nut/mother company Thyssen Krupp navy of system (TKMS) purely economically: “With the receipt of the order the German exporter was put into the position, current development successes in the technology of the submarine manufacturing to strengthen and secure on a long-term basis particularly in the gas cell manufacturing. In addition the appropriate occupation effects (...) come” And the government obviously sees perspectives for the German armaments industry. As voucher BITS of far from the internal collecting main of the Treasury quote: “The order offers besides the chance on future orders, is there the navy of Pakistan indication in accordance with at a long-term partnership interested.” How reports BITS, Pakistan would like later further submarines orders and shows up also in German frigates and interests corvettes of the type MEKO A200 and/or A100. Their manufacturer, Blohm & Voss, belongs likewise to TKMS.

 

[Interceptor]

Hope you guys speak German aswell
I'll try to translate.

This is old Neo I remember reading it? O well nice read.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pak Navy opts for little known German subs

By Shakil Shaikh

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has almost decided to purchase German-manufactured U-214 submarines worth $1 billion on a single source basis.

Senior officials confirmed this huge sale-purchase deal for the U-214 submarines for the Pakistan Navy but confided to The News that the offer was not in compliance with the invitation of the tender issued on May 10, 2006. Also, the submarines are not much known as no such subs are in service with any navy of the world.

The Defence Production Ministry and its technical evaluators, including senior naval officers, rejected a far-better French Marlin even without opening a tender for the said submarines for obvious reasons, alleged a senior official.

French authorities, including former French president Chirac, had protested to President General Pervez Musharraf some time back this flat rejection of their offer. The president, said the source, had assured his French counterpart that the scrutiny process of purchasing submarines would be transparent and fair. But the authorities and those linked to this project masterminded the French offer to be outclassed, though Pakistan had ordered and operated three generations of French submarines in the last 40 years.

The two last subs have been produced in Karachi by means of a successful Transfer of Technology (ToT), as key human and industrial assets are the result of a long and fruitful cooperation between Pakistan and France. This resulted in Pakistan’s joining of a very select club of submarine builders.

One senior official said that after partial selection of the German HDW (Howaldtswearke — Deutsche Werft), a senior Defence Production official, Commander Nisar Ahmed, who is assistant director Munitions Production (Navy), raised many queries on the proposal from the HDW for the construction of three conventional subs at the purchaser yard under ToT arrangements through a letter dated August 13, 2007.

It was very surprising that the officer sought information after accepting the offer of supplying three conventional U-214 subs from the German firm. The authorities made twisted general specifications, which made the whole process non-transparent and unfair, said the source.

Investigations and background briefings from officials in the Ministry of Defence Production and the Pakistan Navy revealed that following the French protest at the highest level, the Defence Production Division requested the French DCNS (Agosta-90B fame company and leader of the European market in subs production) to submit a “Scorpene” offer as Pakistan’s choice. Scorpene is one of the top class submarines and is being supplied to India as well.

However, the offer of Scorpene was rejected as it was found technically unacceptable by the Pakistan Navy, said the source, adding that no reason was given for this. A comparison between French Scorpene and German U-214 will show that Scorpene subs have been ordered by three different navies and two of them have been in service for more than two years.

Conversely, the German U-214 submarine has been ordered by two navies only and none of them is in service. In fact, the first class “Papanikolis” has been rejected twice by a NAT navy (Greek Navy). And the tender mentioned that the proposed design should be in service in a parent/foreign navy.

“As no U-214 is in service in any navy of the world, the German offer is not compliant with IT and should have been rejected,” said a senior official. The scrutiny process of selecting German subs does not take into account the existing Agosta-90B capabilities which in case of a U-214 selection have to be fully redeveloped.

The Defence Production Division, disclosed the official, refused to consider the French offer which consists of building Scorpene submarines in Karachi for export and maintaining those operated by foreign navies there. The aim of this offer is to maintain the key assets developed in the framework of the Agosta-90B contract.

However, it was shocking when the chief of naval staff and the secretary Defence Production did not reply to the DCNS chairman’s official additional offer, which consists of upgrading free of charge the three Agosta-90B’s combat management system, said the source. This offer, he said, creates added value for the Pakistan Navy and spares foreign currency to the country.

During the scrutiny, the Defence Production Division did not take into account the fact that the German offer included technologies subject to the US Congress clearance. It is a too dangerous aspect, as no Pakistani can rely on the US or its legislative forums. Pakistan is a victim of US sanctions.

“The whole matter needs to be investigated at the highest forum in Pakistan,” said a senior official, adding that the scrutiny process of purchasing German subs would create problems for naval defence in future.

Pakistan, if it goes the Germany way, would jeopardise the long cooperation established with France by avoiding competition in the $1 billion purchase of submarines. When asked why Pakistan was buying German subs instead of French, Director Munitions Production AVM Shaukat Mehmood told The News on Friday that the choice of purchasing new subs had been received from the Naval Headquarters (NHQ). “The technical committee of the Pakistan Navy has obviously carried out elaborate analysis of different options and they chose the best,” he said. “The German subs are selected by NHQ.”

Pak Navy opts for little known German subs

Quite irritating how the author alleges "impropriety" in the acquisition. It's become quite the rage to target the military over everything, forget the fact that they managed to keep a functioning deterrence capability for all these years with almost nothing.

The Marlin is "far better", and the U-214 "a not much known about sub", but lets forget that the Marlin only exists on paper.