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Pakistan Failed state?

The only volume it speaks of is the blissful ignorance of Pakistanis. For example, if you as a Pakistani consider a Pakistani life is cheap and low value, then you wouldn't mind if a thousand of those get killed by other Pakisanis! Doesn't make it right, does it?
Perhaps - though its far more likely that the fact that the majority of the violence occurs in Tribal or sparsely populated areas where the majority of the population is not directly impacted, and therefore the violence does not play as big a role as the raw numbers would suggest.
 
Yes Pakistan is a Failed State if you are looking at things thru Anti Pakistan Glasses.... :coffee:
 
Your'e still jumping around and avoiding answering the question, so, again, "do you apply that argument consistently and at what point does the flow of human capital out of a country pose an issue and why? Is said flow offset by the inflow of human capital from other States?"


Wh
o would leave his/her country and parents if he gets all the opportunities?

The living criteria for people in west is different. Why would Pakistani leave his country settling in west where no one celebrates EID. We are more social society and due to some helplessness we are leaving the country to find something which we did not find in Pakistan. Who wants to live abroad leaving family behind? At least not the Pakistanis.

We are not leaving Pakistan to explore the west, we are leaving due to lack of opportunities and social security.

Not a benchmark, but a reference point to make sense of various data points - as pointed out, Pakistan ranks higher than India in the 'happiness index', which would suggest that relative to Pakistan, India is failing her citizens and failing as a state.

The happiness index criteria is different for all countries. Some are satisfied with Nokia 3300 some want Iphone6 4g.
The US has over 46 million people under the poverty line and on food stamps, the point being that most large countries suffer from this 'failure of the State'.

As I said, the state delivers more than 50% the level of failure of the system/state in Pakistan is much higher than that of in the west. There they have basic necessities.

In Pakistan even the system has failed to provide water for 24 hours and electricity for 24 hours. Forget the rest!!


Can these countries do better? Should they do better? Of course - no one in their right mind is arguing that any level of poverty is acceptable and that the governments should not try to address such issues. The point behind the discussion on the BISP, however, is that the GoP is making an effort (from a policy perspective at least) to provide support to vulnerable sections of society, as is the case in many developed countries. To not have policies like the BISP in place to support vulnerable sections of society would be an even bigger failure.

And when will such policies come where there will be job opportunities for people under BISP? We are Merely 200Million , we have fertile land, we have water resources. Cannot they build channels to provide easy access to water, medical, education food and electricity which in return will create Job opportunity when these channels are extended.
 
Utter rubbish. How well something is doing is seen not how it is done but what the final result is on the ground or to use that favourite term of South Asians "ground realities". The average person in Pakistan is as well off or as bad off as a Indian - I would argue better but I don't want to get side tracked. So if the average citizen in Pakistan is no worse off than in India clearly the system depite all the negative publicity is functioning as well as any other in South Asia. Proof of the pudding is in eating.

Does not matter how it was made ...



This is what the rich say to keep their monopoly on the state. They would rather not share the pie with the poor. It is okay for them to use their connections to get plum jobs in government, juicy contracts or embezzle state funds as long as the poor are kept out of the feeding party. By doing so you give the poor a stake in the system thereby helping to create long term stability.

If you don't do this the poor will pick up the gun instead ... Hint - Maoists?

Poor must work harder to achieve what the rich have,yes I agree there must be some sort of social security net but only for Old people,mentally unstable,crippled & young people who want to innovate.
 
Perhaps - though its far more likely that the fact that the majority of the violence occurs in Tribal or sparsely populated areas where the majority of the population is not directly impacted, and therefore the violence does not play as big a role as the raw numbers would suggest.

I'd really like to hear if other Pakistanis agree with this contention of yours that the lives of Pakistanis in some areas of Pakistan are lot less valuable than in others.
 
Happiness is the natural result of reality exceeding expectations, so what is the problem here?
Depends on how much weight was given to the factors that were subjective (based on perceptions of residents) vs factors that rely on objective data (GDP etc). As the report indicates:

The six factors are GDP per capita, healthy years of life expectancy, social support (as measured by having someone to count on in times of trouble), trust (as measured by a perceived absence of corruption in government and business), perceived freedom to make life decisions, and generosity (as measured by recent donations, adjusted for differences in income). Differences in social support, incomes and healthy life expectancy are the three most important factors, with their relative importance depending on the comparison group chosen.
 
You see such assistance is indeed provided in lots of countries but not to make the people huddharam but to take them through tough times while they are searching for new jobs. We on the other hand are using this money, tax payer's money, to literally bribe these people and they are so royally screwed up that they do return the favor by casting votes in favor of the government. Benazir support program, what the hell is this? this money came from her personal account or her haramzadey husband Zardari's account? this is tax payer's money. And look how cheap Pakistanis sell themselves up; this scheme provides some 2,500 rupees per family per month and yet those who receive this meager alm sell their votes. We do not like to hear that we are failed country but as Oscar said, Pakistanis are indeed failed people.

I agree with you there must be such schemes but for only old,crippled,mentally unstable & young people who want to innovate but there us no reason at all why these handouts should continue
 
Depends on how much weight was given to the factors that were subjective (based on perceptions of residents) vs factors that rely on objective data (GDP etc). As the report indicates:

The six factors are GDP per capita, healthy years of life expectancy, social support (as measured by having someone to count on in times of trouble), trust (as measured by a perceived absence of corruption in government and business), perceived freedom to make life decisions, and generosity (as measured by recent donations, adjusted for differences in income). Differences in social support, incomes and healthy life expectancy are the three most important factors, with their relative importance depending on the comparison group chosen.

My point was that happiness is a measure quite independent of economic considerations. Many of the countries ranking high in the global rankings for happiness are not in the developed world. Thus, Pakistanis can be happier than many other countries ranking higher economically.
 
To the notion of "Pakistan is a Failed State" I completely disagree....please read the article below and decide yourself. These are just a few examples...
Why Pakistan is not a failed state
Michael Kugelman — Published in Dawn on Dec 21, 2012 01:30pm


290-human-pakistani-flag-lahore-app-670.jpg

More than 24,000 Pakistanis form the world’s largest “human national flag” in Lahore. –APP Photo
It’s been about a week since the Connecticut school massacre, and Americans are still grieving.

Yet we’re comforted by the thought that, with time, the bereaved community of Newtown will bounce back. Students will return to school, and victims’ families will somehow get on with their lives. This is because America, as politicians and the US media have intoned repeatedly in recent days, is a strong and resilient society.

For me, such words bring to mind another strong and resilient society — one that endures constant afflictions, tragedies, and privation. I can think of few nations that suffer more misery than Pakistan.

Pakistan certainly isn’t the only country where, in a span of hours, an infant can be bitten by a rat in a hospital nursery, and 16 people can die from consuming toxic cough medicine. This happened several weeks ago.

Yet, place these individual incidents alongside the unending onslaught of natural disaster, insurgency, terrorism, corruption, poverty, natural resource shortage, and disease. Now you can understand why so many Pakistanis suffer from PTSD, and are driven to desperate measures.

In 2008, in one of the most harrowing pieces of journalism I’ve ever read, Newsline’s Shimaila Matri Dawood wrote of Pakistanis murdering their children, jumping in front of trains, and setting themselves on fire — all because they couldn’t provide for their families.

Still, the aim of my final post of 2012 is not to dwell on Pakistan’s suffering. It is to showcase the remarkable strength and resiliency with which the Pakistani society responds to it.

When the 2010 floods plunged 20 per cent of the nation underwater, the government was largely missing in action. Yet doctors, housewives, students, and many others (not to mention the military) immediately deployed to the affected areas to render assistance. Of course, many Pakistanis minister to the needy every day, and not just after humanitarian catastrophes. Witness the tireless work of Pakistan’s living legend, Abdul Sattar Edhi.

Some of Pakistan’s citizen-first responders come bearing not relief or medical supplies, but inspiring words and campaigns that galvanise the nation. Malala Yousafzai certainly comes to mind — as does Sana Saleem, the free speech advocate recently named one of Foreign Policy’s top 100 global thinkers of 2012 (Malala made the list as well). Their ilk will increasingly take center stage as older generations — led by the likes of the late Ardeshir Cowasjee — retire from public life.

Then there are those Pakistanis who use their rare gifts to benefit the country. The tragically short life of Arfa Karim, the teenaged IT genius who provided computer training to the poor, is a shining example.

Also admirable are those who labor under the most difficult of conditions, yet still pull off extraordinary acts. Take journalists and doctors, many of whom are severely underpaid and overworked, and work in dangerous environments. Admittedly, some of them succumb to the stress (recall the surgeon who left operating scissors in a patient’s stomach, and the journalists who fell for the infamous Shamsul Anwar hoax). Yet many more shrug off threats to break critical stories, or save countless lives. I’ll never forget the young doctor I met last summer, who told me he constantly fears getting attacked at his hospital by livid people denied care. When I asked why he keeps going back, his answer was immediate and simple: “Pakistan needs medical care.”

And then there are the besieged religious minorities, who quietly persevere in a nation that refuses to protect them. It’s a wonder more haven’t fled.

Finally, there are the simple yet poignant acts of charity and benevolence — like the kids in Karachi who collect garbage every Sunday, or the Islamabad-based peace activists who travel to KP to speak to students about tolerance and nonviolence.

One of Pakistan’s enigmas is how it manages to “muddle along” despite its multitude of problems. The answer can be found in its people, who hold the country together. They are undoubtedly driven by patriotism, which runs deep despite the nation’s divisions. This is why I cringe whenever I hear Pakistan referred to as a “failed state.” So long as the Pakistani society remains strong, I can’t imagine how Pakistan can fail.

At least not yet.

The question, in the years ahead, is whether Pakistan’s resilient society can beat back the cresting waves of militancy and sectarianism that threaten to tear Pakistan apart and, one day, even plunge it into civil war. Balkanisation, more so than an Islamist takeover, is a very real threat to the Pakistani state.

Up to now, the Pakistani society has stepped in to provide services and fill roles where the government is absent. Yet this isn’t a sustainable strategy. To avert disaster in the decades ahead, the Pakistani state will need to step up — and provide the leadership and good judgment long exemplified by its society.
 
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You see such assistance is indeed provided in lots of countries but not to make the people huddharam but to take them through tough times while they are searching for new jobs. We on the other hand are using this money, tax payer's money, to literally bribe these people and they are so royally screwed up that they do return the favor by casting votes in favor of the government. Benazir support program, what the hell is this? this money came from her personal account or her haramzadey husband Zardari's account? this is tax payer's money. And look how cheap Pakistanis sell themselves up; this scheme provides some 2,500 rupees per family per month and yet those who receive this meager alm sell their votes. We do not like to hear that we are failed country but as Oscar said, Pakistanis are indeed failed people.
Most people wont disagree with the gist of your comment, that social/government support for vulnerable sections of society should, where feasible, attempt to enable the individual to become financially independent and therefore be tied to (where possible) measurable attempts by individuals receiving support to become financially independent.

That is definitely the direction we should move in, but tying social support to efforts by the individual receiving support requires the government to have in place the infrastructure that would allow the individual to become independent. Pakistan needs to invest a lot more in providing said infrastructure before making social support conditional. So for the time being this support is better than nothing.
 
Pakistan is Unstable i agree , However its definitely not a Failed State
Pakistan never ending war(more than one decades) increases the chances day by day....
It needs a complete overhaul inside out in every sphere.... I hope Pakistan stand out against all odds & acts as a responsible & progressive nation.....
 
Benazir support program is nothing but an organized effort to turn people into baggers. There is a Chinese proverb that translates something like: dont give them fish, teach them to catch fish. With this 'Benazir' crap program, we are only creating an army of nikammey and haram khour and in return we are asking for votes. Compared to that, Dr Amjad Saqib's NGO 'Akhuwat' is doing a great job by distributing interest-free loans and helping people to start their own businesses. Over 95% loans are returned back and many who benefited from those loans initially are now donors of 'Akhuwat', subhanAllah.
So you are telling the people livng in britain and unfortunately seek govt. support due to any reason are beggers, what a logic, you should be rewarded with some national reward.
 
My point was that happiness is a measure quite independent of economic considerations. Many of the countries ranking high in the global rankings for happiness are not in the developed world. Thus, Pakistanis can be happier than many other countries ranking higher economically.
I understood your point, which is why I provided the excerpt from paper that compiled the 'Happiness Index'. My assumption was that you didn't know the context in which I made that remark. I wasn't referring to a PEW poll that asked people in various countries 'how they feel', which would line up with your comment about perceptions and how they can be skewed depending on the reference point (for example, diminishing levels of violence in one year compared to the previous year, even though the current levels of violence may be significantly higher than the global average).

I'd really like to hear if other Pakistanis agree with this contention of yours that the lives of Pakistanis in some areas of Pakistan are lot less valuable than in others.
Perhaps you should let other Pakistanis read my actual comments instead of distorting them and presenting them in the manner that you have - such intellectual dishonesty certainly can't contribute to a healthy and happy mind.

Let me clarify it further - what I described is human nature, not something unique to Pakistan. People may have a short term emotional reaction to distant events, but unless there is a tangible direct impact, or the threat of a tangible direct impact, from such events, most people will forget and/or not allow said events to impact their lives and their perceptions of life.
 

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