Pakistan thinks small scale for subs

[Adios Amigo]

Usman Ansari

Monday, June 14, 2010


Apparently, so the story goes, Pakistan is looking at purchasing a number of small coastal submarines from the French in order to patrol the shallow coastal waters found in and around its EEZ. The submarine in question is the French DCNS Andrasta.


You can see, probably the most up to date set of figures at this time, here:


www.dcnsgroup.com/files/pdf/Andrasta.pdf


It all seems fairly impressive. The Andrasta design is an evolution of the SMX-23, which then DCN were pushing back in 2006 at IDEAS 2006 in Karachi. I wrote a little about it for PakDef in my IDEAS2006 report:


Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info


Contrary to what I wrote in 2006, it seems now that there is a requirement for such a submarine, because unbeknown to me, the waters around the EEZ and nearby Indian littoral, are actually quite shallow, and therefore rather difficult for larger submarines to operate in.


The Andrasta is a fairly compact submarine at only 49 metres long, and from the looks of the computer generated images available, looks like it would probably be a fairly manoeuvrable craft, well capable of operating in shallow waters.


However, there is one aspect of this which is rather more interesting however, and that is that Pakistan would like to know if the design can modified to include an AIP unit. The French claim it can. At this point alarm bells should be ringing. The Andrasta is a ‘paper design’ like the Marlin (or ‘submarine formerly known as Marlin’ – now a ‘member’ of the Scorpene family). Though it claims to have 70 percent commonality with the Scorpene, it is still a ‘paper design’, because it exists only on paper. With so much riding on its long drawn out submarine acquisition programme, (now thought to include talks for a number of Chinese submarines as well), can Pakistan risk making a mistake? The answer is obviously “NO!”, because Pakistan is a highly indebted nation (thanks to staggering financial mismanagement by the current government), and is surviving on loans because it has very little money of its own, (because the very few Pakistanis that should legitimately be paying the most taxes, have the most violent aversion to paying any taxes at all – amongst other things).


There is always considerable risk in buying something ‘off plan’. Ask the Greeks. They purchased the Type-209 ‘off plan’, and then did the same for the Type-214. Both of these submarine designs are superb and have been very successful, but designs need to mature, and there are always glitches that need fixing in even the best of platforms. With two Agosta-70 submarines that are approaching retirement, the Pakistan Navy cannot be allowed to be left with just three Khalid class submarines to shoulder the entire operational burden. However, if there are any more delays, that is what we are facing. Leaving aside the question of whether we will ever see the Type-214 in service, or the Chinese Type-041A Yuan class (or will it be the Type-039 Song class?), if Pakistan really is serious about a small submarine then perhaps there are alternatives. There is one very obvious one, the HDW Type-210mod.


Here is HDW’s official Type-210mod page:


Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH


As can be seen, it is a slightly larger design than the Andrasta, but the that should not be taken as the key difference (bar some clear performance and armament advantages in favour of the Type-210mod), because if a 6 metre AIP ‘plug’ is inserted into the French submarine, they will both be of similar dimensions. The key difference is, is that the Type-210mod is a far less risky design. The risk in fact seems to be minimal.


For a start it is based on an existing design, the Norwegian Ula class that has been in service for around twenty years. Here’s the Military Today page for the Ula class submarine:

Ula Class Patrol Submarine | Military-Today.com


(It has a short film that shows you nothing in particular if you’re interested). Or if it takes your fancy, here’s the Wiki entry:


Ula class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As you can see, it is a fairly decent design with good pedigree. However, the Type-210mod takes things a step further, because it incorporates design characteristics and systems from the Type-209/1400mod, Type-212A, and Type-214. There is therefore very little that needs to be proven, as pretty much everything is not only a physical reality, but already in service.


The Type-210mod does not have a hydrogen fuel cell AIP unit, but considering it has a range of 5000miles, it probably doesn’t need one. This is after all a coastal submarine. Also the Type-210mod’s Permaysn motor (as I understand is fitted to the Type-212A), is apparently able to recharge the batteries quicker than would normally be the case. I’m not sure if the AIP unit will do much to increase the overall range of the Andrasta in relation to that of the Type-210mod either. The Type-210mod is clearly the superior submarine in every respect.


It could be said that after the Khalid class programme, Pakistan has the technological base to manufacture the Andrasta, whereas things would need modifying to build the Type-210mod. That is true to some extent, but not completely. Pakistan has the technological capacity to fabricate the basic hull and the pressure hull, but it lacks the capacity to completely build the entire submarine. For a start there are no presses in Pakistan to fabricate the pressure domes of the pressure hull. This is a highly specialised and costly piece of equipment. A country would only invest in such a piece of equipment if it was to have a constant need for it. Other sub-systems would also have to come from France such as the AIP module, the SUBTICS combat management system, the diesel engine, the sensors, probably even the weapon handling systems, and a whole host of other things besides. The notion therefore that Pakistan may also be able to export these submarines if it was the launch customer is rather fanciful. Everything would depend on the French agreeing to support the deal. It probably would never happen.


The only thing that I can think Pakistani domestic defence industry could supply would be something like the MSL Towed Array Sonar, which is a compact system optimised for the conditions found in and around the Arabian Sea. Obviously there would be other things as well, but off the top of my head, I can only think of this system.


There are probably more industrial benefits to be had by selecting the Type-210mod, especially if Pakistan does finally get around to signing on the dotted line for the Type-214. The two designs share a commonality in systems, and the facilities upgraded to manufacture the Type-214 would probably be entirely sufficient to manufacture the Type-210mod. HDW may even be amiable to agreeing to a lower unit price if both types are selected. It would after all be good news for HDW as they would be securing another Type-214 deal, and would have found a launch customer for the Type-210mod.


It is however, price that is the deciding factor here. The Andrasta is probably cheaper, (though it is French, so we cannot be entirely sure there given their track record of grossly inflating prices – let’s just assume it is the case that it’s cheaper though). Pakistan is broke, and is looking around to obtain what it can for the meagre pennies it has.


Let’s just hope that if it is the case that cost is a factor, it isn’t anything to do with ‘baksheesh’ though. This is after all Pakistan potentially negotiating a defence deal with the French. There is past form to consider.


Let’s wait and see if this is all true to start off though…

 

[Penguin]

The Andrasta would be quite similar in size to the retired Daphne class boats, a succesful french product of the past. Most major new naval systems get ordered as paper designs; it is quite common to order like that these days.

Displacement: 860 tonnes surfaced, 1,038 tonnes submerged
Length: 57.75 metres
Beam: 6.74 metres
Draught: 5.25 metres
Propulsion: Diesel-electric, two shafts, 1,600 shp

Daphné class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Ula class is a Norwegian submarine type which was assembled in Germany in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The construction of the vessels was an international project. The combat systems were made in Norway by Kongsberg, the attack sonar is German and the flank sonars French. The hull sections were produced in Norway, and then assembled in Germany by Thyssen Nordseewerke, Emden. In Germany, the design is known as the U-Boot-Klasse 210. The Ula class submarines are among the most silent and maneuverable submarines in the world. This, in combination with the relatively small size, makes them difficult to detect from surface vessels and ideal for operations in coastal areas. During the period 2006-2008, the Ula class will be modernized.

Ula class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Partly owing to the "X" arrangement of the stern planes, the Type 212 is capable of operating in as little as 17 metres of water, allowing it to come much closer to shore than most contemporary submarines.

Type 212 submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The X-arrangement of the stern planes has been a standard feature of the (much larger: 2,350 t surfaced, 2,650 t submerged) Dutch Walrus class subs.

This tail configuration was first tested in 1960 on the United States Navy's USS Albacore (AGSS-569), but has since been used only by the Walrus class, all Swedish Navy submarines since the Sjöormen class, the Royal Australian Navy's Collins class and the German Type 212A.

Walrus class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[TOPGUN]

Any official source of the news ? and how many in numbers which in even small numbers as stated its a good move

 

[Quwa]

Any official source of the news ? and how many in numbers which in even small numbers as stated its a good move

The source is PakDef, and they would never publicize something that isn't true or factual.

 

[Super Falcon]

well after seen what out navy did with U boat foe 5 years nuts PN needs ten years to decide what they wants then they order and after 5 years they get it than it will be useless because enemy by that time get better than out scarp

 

[ghazi52]

Pakistan navy needs to patrol the shallow coastal waters found in and around its EEZ. PN should go for at least five of these submarines.

 

[SQ8]

Wonder whose pockets are going to be fattened this time...

 

[TaimiKhan]

Wonder whose pockets are going to be fattened this time...

Mr. Zardari's and Naval Chief's the most

 

[Neither Right Nor Wrong]

SSK Andrasta Coastal Submarine, Franc

Key Data:

Complement 19 crew, plus 2 passengers and 6 divers

Dimensions:Overall Length 48.8m
Surfaced Displacement 855t

Performance:

Diving Depth Over 200m

Maximum Submerged Speed Over 15kt

High-Speed Autonomy 3 hours

Submerged Endurance Up to 5 days

Transit Range Over 3,000nm

Typical Mission Duration15 days

Cost- $200 million (est.)

It does not make economic sense if Pak navy decides to fit Mesma AIP on these costal subs.

Each sub will cost around $200 M (scorpene costs $350 million) whereas Mesma AIP costs around $100 M , will increase the cost of the sub by 50 %.

A typical AIP gives the sub a submerged endurance of 20-21 days.
But as the sub's endurance is very less
(3000 NM) full capability of AIP can not be used.

An order of 3 subs with AIP will cost around $900-1000 Million, if you include 10% cut for Mr 10 %

 

[Super Falcon]

u are letting us know AIP cost we already have them on agosta sir before indian did we know meaning of it AIP Air Independent Proplusion

 

[Neither Right Nor Wrong]

u are letting us know AIP cost we already have them on agosta sir before indian did we know meaning of it AIP Air Independent Proplusion

BRAVO

 

[Super Falcon]

The 19-crew, 855t displacement, Andrasta submarine, announced by DCNS in September 2008, has been optimised for littoral operations in coastal waters, but remains a formidable adversary in blue (deep) water environments.

The submarine is named after Andrasta, the Celtic goddess of war whose name means victorious or invincible. The prime contractor, DCNS, considers that the Andrasta has no equivalent for littoral missions in terms of manoeuvrability and stealth.

The submarine design draws heavily on the proven configuration and systems adopted for the Scorpene family and has about 70% commonality with the Scorpene. The Andrasta surfaced displacement is 855t compared to the 1,790t to 2,010t displacement of the Scorpene. The submarine incorporates the same level of safety, stealth signatures and systems integration as the Scorpene.

"The SSK Andrasta submarine has been optimised for littoral operations in coastal waters."The Andrasta can lurk on the seabed in coastal waters where the water depth is typically less than 100m. At a speed of 4kt the range is more than 3,000nm and more than 1,800nm at 8kt.

Andrasta is being presented to world markets at about half the cost of attack submarines such as the Scorpene. The Andrasta design can incorporate extra performance options which are not mandatory for littoral missions but which customer countries may require, without degrading the submarine’s efficiency.

For specials operations, the Andrasta has a deployment airlock for combat swimmers, electronic warfare and intelligence gathering systems.

Andrasta missions
The submarine missions cover anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, intelligence gathering, special operations, offensive mine mooring, covert tracking of illegal activities, single ship operations and cooperative operations with other ships or maritime assets. The Andrasta is equipped to communicate easily with other assets and command centres.

Design

The double-hull structure gives good survivability and surfaced sea keeping characteristics. An X-configuration rudder has independently operated surfaces for a high level of manoeuvrability including a small turning radius.

The small hull helps contribute to the submarine's stealth characteristics. The submarine has a diving depth to 200m and a submerged endurance of five days. It also has a very low acoustic and visual signature.

Command and control

The Andrasta is equipped with the DCNS SUBTICS submarine tactical integrated combat system. SUBTICS systems are in operation aboard Scorpene submarines of the Chilean Navy and Agosta 90B submarines for the Pakistan Navy

The combat management system is integrated with the sonar and other sensors (optical, optronic, electronic support measures, radar) and carries out the location and identification of vessels, target tracking, tactical analysis, decision making, action management, exchange of tactical data via datalinks, the control of weapons systems and engagement of targets.

"Andrasta's double-hull structure gives good survivability and surfaced sea keeping characteristics."The submarine is equipped with high-precision navigation and surveillance systems for operation in littoral waters. Surveillance missions can be successfully carried out while the submarine is at rest on the seabed.

Weapons

The Andrasta can accommodate new-generation heavyweight torpedoes such as the Black Shark, anti-ship missiles such as the Exocet SM-39 and a mine-laying system. The torpedoes and missiles are stored and carried in the six forward torpedo tubes. The small hull size of the submarine does not accommodate torpedoes and missiles for reload.

Special forces

The Andrasta submarines, which can carry two passengers plus a team of six divers, can be deployed for special forces missions which gives the Andrasta an enhanced attack capability comparable to larger submarines. The submarine is fitted with a lock-out / lock-in chamber for combat swimmers.



well this might be the replacement of hangoor class submarine and also PN wants to use this Andresta for naval SSG missions

 

[Super Falcon]

The Sea Dagger series of submarines are special operations vehicles developed by Kockums of Malmo, Sweden, now owned by HDW of Germany. The small stealthy submarines are tailored for five types of missions: attack; autonomous swimmer delivery; surveillance and minehunting; and as a target vehicle for antisubmarine warfare exercises and training.

The Sea Dagger variants are constructed from three modules, the bow and stern modules and one chosen from four specific mission module options. The submarines are small, with displacement in the range of 55t to 72t, a length of between 16 and 20m, a height of 3.6m and a diameter of 2.5m.

The four variants of Sea Dagger are equipped with sonar, communications systems, and a comprehensive navigation suite including a navigation computer, a gyroscope compass, speed log, depth gauge, echo sounder, global positioning system, navigation radar and optronic mast.

PROPULSION

The diesel electric engine provides a surface speed of 6 or 7 knots according to the submarine configuration, and a submerged speed of 8 knots. The operational endurance is eight days (five days for the Advanced Target Submarine). The range is 2 x 350 nautical miles at 4 knots (3 knots for the ATS), and 70 nautical miles under battery power at 4 knots (35 nm at 3 knots for the ATS). The surface speed is 7 knots and the underwater speed 8 knots. The operational endurance is eight days (five days for the ATS).

SEA DAGGER SMALL ATTACK SUBMARINE

The Small Attack Submarine has the capability to carry and launch externally stowed weapons. A range of half-length anti-submarine warfare (ASW) weapons and mines can be carried. The submarine is operated by a crew of four, with two combat system operators. The rescue chamber can accommodate single escape or lockout.

The attack submarine is fitted with passive, intercept and obstacle avoidance sonar. The communications systems include VLF/LF, HF, and VHF antennae, internal and external communications, an underwater telephone system and a diver communications system.

The submarine's combat systems include a command and control system, electronic support measures, two external torpedo tubes and a weapons launching system.

SEA DAGGER AUTONOMOUS SWIMMER DELIVERY VEHICLE (ASDV)

The ASDV Autonomous Swimmer Delivery Vehicle carries, delivers and retrieves combat swimmers. The operational endurance is eight days. The vehicle carries no external weapons.

The submarine is operated by a crew of four and can accommodate up to six divers. A lockout chamber allows four divers to exit simultaneously.

The ASDV has passive, intercept and obstacle avoidance sonar. The communications suite includes a VLF/LF antenna system, HF and VHF antennae, external and internal communications, underwater telephone system and a diver communication system.

SEA DAGGER ADVANCED SURVEILLANCE VEHICLE (ASV)

The Advanced Surveillance Vehicle is equipped for surveillance and minehunting operations. An electronic support measures system is installed on the submarine. The communications system provides transfer of surveillance data. The submarine is operated by a crew of four, with two surveillance and minehunting system operators.

The submarine has passive, intercept and obstacle avoidance sonar. The communications systems on the surveillance vehicle are VLF/LF, HF and VHF antennae, external and internal communications, underwater telephone and diver communications.

SEA DAGGER ADVANCED TARGET SUBMARINE (ATS)

The Advanced Target Submarine, ATS, provides a target vehicle for Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) training primarily for littoral warfare training. A variety of signatures and target signal strengths can be generated by the target simulator. The ATS is operated by a crew of three and the operational endurance is five days.

The Advanced Target Simulator is equipped with an obstacle avoidance radar, a VHF antenna system, external and internal communications and an underwater telephone system.



this might be the best option sweedish i think now PN seriously has to think of atleast 9 subs

3 U boats
2 subs for SSG small and for reconacinse
2 song sub
2 nuke subs will serve pakistan waters welll for next 30 years

 

[Penguin]

SSK Andrasta Coastal Submarine, Franc

Key Data:

Complement 19 crew, plus 2 passengers and 6 divers

Dimensions:Overall Length 48.8m
Surfaced Displacement 855t

Performance:

Diving Depth Over 200m

Maximum Submerged Speed Over 15kt

High-Speed Autonomy 3 hours

Submerged Endurance Up to 5 days

Transit Range Over 3,000nm

Typical Mission Duration15 days

Cost- $200 million (est.)

It does not make economic sense if Pak navy decides to fit Mesma AIP on these costal subs.

Each sub will cost around $200 M (scorpene costs $350 million) whereas Mesma AIP costs around $100 M , will increase the cost of the sub by 50 %.

A typical AIP gives the sub a submerged endurance of 20-21 days.
But as the sub's endurance is very less
(3000 NM) full capability of AIP can not be used.

An order of 3 subs with AIP will cost around $900-1000 Million, if you include 10% cut for Mr 10 %

"Each MESMA system costs around $50-60 million"
India Looks to Modify Scorpene Subs With MESMA AIP Propulsion

" MESMA AIP systems to cost extra, at around $55 million dollars each "
http://www.domain-b.com/industry/defence/20080226_scorpene.html

1 scorpene = $350 million
1 scorpene + mesma = $400 million = 2 Andrasta
2 andrasta + mesma = $500 million
3 andrasta + mesma = $750 million
3 andrasta + mesma + 10% = $825 million.

range and endurance are 2 different things.

 

[SQ8]

Knews out, Agosta 90B deal made under massive kickbacks, including those to Mr Sarkosky.
Frenchmen killed in attack due to "imbalanced" nature of kickbacks.