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Raymond Davis Case: Developing Story

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GoP should grow a pair n tell usa to stfu or else we il close their supply route n cooperation in WOT....Negotiate with the talis n leave em for good.

We have already lost thousands of civilians,soldiers n crippled our economy with 50-60 billion dollar worth infrastructure destroyed!
 
Lets see if Pakistan can really stand up against the US after all the big talk we have seen, its highly doubtful that Islamabad will let go of the aid they get just to prosecute this one guy. They will bow down and just like what happens everytime, 10-20 "Defense analyst" will scream and shout on TV channels and call this yet another conspiracy. Its all too common.

We all know that's what will happen eventually.

But the point is to put the US on record as using diplomatic immunity and bullying to bypass judicial process in a double murder case.

This precedent will affect US relations with all countries around the world, not just Pakistan.
 
It doesn't mean its not happening, Kamal Nath has already been summoned to a US court for a hearing TOMORROW: US reviewing immunity for Kamal Nath in 1984 Sikh riots case | ummid.com By the US's own standards a precedent already exists.
The article does not back up what you claim, Asim. Yes, there will be a pre-trial hearing, however:

1) Nath is not in prison and it is a civil case so in my opinion the question of immunity of his person doesn't exist now and is unlikely to arise.

2) While Nath was served I don't think his presence at the hearing can be enforced, just as police can give a diplomat a parking ticket but can't compel him to pay.

3) The State Department is reviewing his diplomatic immunity to this proceeding, not the courts.
 
But the point is to put the US on record as using diplomatic immunity and bullying to bypass judicial process in a double murder case. This precedent will affect US relations with all countries around the world, not just Pakistan.
No, the point is to see if a Pakistan which celebrates killing one of its own governors because he sought to uphold minority rights remains civilized enough to follow international norms. This precedent will affect Pakistani relations with many countries around the world, not just the U.S.
 
why do pakistan people hate us so much?

who doesn't hate you yankees?
you guys even hate yourselves. Liberal and Conservatives in your country are like two different ethnicities who can't wait to go to war with each other.

And joking aside, I hear more Americans badmouthing Pakistanis than vice versa. Do a survey in the US, 9/10 will say "lets nuke them sand niggers"
 
Hang him infront of Parliment house , this is the only way to prove that we are not the 53rd state Of USA.
 
Hang him infront of Parliment house , this is the only way to prove that we are not the 53rd state Of USA.
Don't you mean, "253rd"? After all, every other state on the planet honors diplomatic immunity. You desire Pakistan to be the only exception.
 
Don't you mean, "253rd"? After all, every other state on the planet honors diplomatic immunity. You desire Pakistan to be the only exception.

So if a Pakistani diplomat shot 3 Americans in Washington DC, he'd be subject to diplomatic immunity and walk free?

Oh politics, you so crazy.
 
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In alll honesty, stoping aid to Pakistan would be the best thing to have ever happened to Pakistan and also in the best interest of the U.S.

Pakistan would finally be able to stand on it's feet and start taxing every facet of it's society equally and raise it's revenues substantially.

The US can funnel that aid money for it's own debt elimination and economic revival. Too many people have lost their jobs here and too many are going too loose their jobs in the near future. Many major states, including NY, are loosing teachers, firefighters, cops and other civil employees, pension cuts and payscale downgrade is the talk of the town.

I serously think the aid should stop, it's in the best interest of both, Pakistani and American people.
 
Everybody hates Raymond —Saroop Ijaz


The disagreements on the construction of the Vienna Convention are completely valid. However, to make absurd demands like, for example, proposing an exchange between Mr Davis and Dr Aafia Siddiqui, are ridiculous

The shooting in Lahore by an allegedly American diplomat Raymond Davis has been the subject of much controversy. The primary focus has rightly been on the legal position governing an incident like this. The diplomatic status of the shooter has not been clarified yet. The extension of the Vienna Convention’s immunity is being debated, although for any concrete determination, the facts surrounding the incident including diplomatic status, self-defence and the criminal antecedents of the shooter and the victims are imperative. There, however, remains a broader question relating to the incident: what would prompt a foreign diplomat to resort to such means (excluding self-defence) in a country with an evidently hostile population?

A study conducted by The National Bureau of Economic Research in 2006 through a Berkeley and Columbia professor, focused on exploring the relationship between illegal car parking by foreign diplomats in the New York City and corruption in their home countries. Diplomatic immunity means there was essentially zero legal enforcement of diplomatic parking violations, which allowed for the examination of the role of cultural norms of the home country. In essence this means that consular personnel and their families benefit from diplomatic immunity, a privilege that allows them to avoid paying parking fines. The study generated a revealed preference measure of corruption based on real world behaviour of government officials, all acting in the same setting. According to the study, the act of parking illegally fits remarkably well with a standard definition of corruption by Transparency International, i.e. “the abuse of entrusted power for private gain”, suggesting that the comparison of parking violations by diplomats from different societies serves as a credible measure of the extent of cultural norms of corruption. The results found persistence in corruption norms: diplomats from high corruption countries (based on the existing survey-based indices) had significantly more parking violations. Incidentally, relevant to current events, Egypt has been the worst offender, racking up 17,633 tickets due to illegal parking by its diplomats in New York between 1997 and 2009 for a total of $ 1.9 million.

The cultural norms of a country affect the behaviour of its foreign diplomats. Equally significantly, the study revealed that officials from countries that survey evidence indicates have less favourable popular views of the US committed significantly more parking violations than those having more favourable views. This illustrates the role that sentiment, affinity and perception play in economic decision-making and diplomatic behaviour. The seminal point relevant to the Raymond Davis incident is that the perception of the country and its laws where a diplomat is stationed influences his behaviour and inclination to respect and comply with the domestic regulations of that country. A particularly interesting finding of the study mentioned above is that countries with larger proportions of Muslim population experienced particularly pronounced declines in parking violations in the months following the September 11 attacks in New York City.

Mr Davis belonged to a country where the Second Amendment to the constitution gives citizens the right to bear arms. Assuming Mr Davis is a diplomat, his behaviour displays scant regard for Pakistan and its regulations, coupled with the violent gun culture of the US. Excluding self-defence or temporary insanity for the moment, if we consider the question whether Mr Davis would have adopted the same course of action if he were stationed in France, it is reasonable to guess that it is highly unlikely that he would. If robbed in Paris, he would probably not reach for his gun, but rather would have had a criminal complaint registered. However, in a country where vigilantism is encouraged tacitly, rather glorified overtly, Mr Davis decided to shoot two people who had apparently attempted to mug him. He was certainly also aware of the constant grossly generalised venom indiscriminately directed against the Americans as a people. This does not in any way justify the conduct of Mr Davis, and the law should take its course, holding him accountable. It, however, does provide a context in which we as a people and foreign diplomats stationed here must live.

The response to the incident manifests the typical knee-jerk reactions permeating our public discourse. The Foreign Office should clarify his diplomatic status and his permission to carry firearms. He should be prosecuted in Pakistan if he does not have diplomatic immunity. The disagreements on the construction of the Vienna Convention are completely valid. However, to make absurd demands like, for example, proposing an exchange between Mr Davis and Dr Aafia Siddiqui are ridiculous. It is precisely because of such hostage-seeking, human-trafficking reactions that the world in general — and foreign diplomats in particular — choose to view us as mediaeval and our laws as irrelevant. The focus should remain on the factual and legal position surrounding the incident and not degenerate into the usual exchange of conspiracy theories. Mr Davis, if he legally can be, should be investigated for the deaths of three Pakistani citizens. It should not, however, be posited as a crusade against the US. The unfortunate incident in Lahore should be viewed as an opportunity to emphasise our ability as a state and a nation to comprehend, enforce and comply with the laws, both domestic and international, rather than brandishing our imaginary, fragile national ego.

The writer is a lawyer based at Lahore and can be reached at saroop_ijaz@hotmail.com
 
Catch-22


The government is in a classic catch-22 situation. In Raymond Davis’ case it has very difficult options. The employee of the US consulate in Lahore had shot dead two Pakistanis in Lahore, ostensibly in self-defence, an incident whose motives and details remain murky. The status of Raymond Davis is also far from clear. The US is seeking diplomatic immunity for him, but things have been complicated for the government — which may have been inclined to grant immunity to save its relations with the US — by the reaction of the right wing forces and now the suicide of the widow of one of the murdered Pakistanis.

After weeks of rallies by religious outfits in support of the blasphemy laws, which are now gradually losing wind in the face of a firm denial by the government that any such move is afoot, releasing Raymond Davis may add fresh fuel to their reactionary agenda. They may view it as a golden opportunity to whip up anti-American sentiment among the public and pit them against the government. Currently, Davis is in the Punjab government’s custody and a court is hearing this case.

This has not gone down well with the US, which has heightened efforts to get him released. US Ambassador Cameron Munter has met President Asif Ali Zardari and sought his release. To send a firm signal to Pakistan that it means business, the US has postponed all bilateral diplomatic contact till this happens. Already the implications of this impasse have started making themselves felt. Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi postponed his visit to Munich, Germany, where he was scheduled to attend a security conference, because Pakistan has been informed that Secretary of State Hilary Clinton might not be able to meet him there because of this dispute. President Asif Ali Zardari’s visit to the US next month too has been jeopardised because of this issue. If Pakistan fails to comply with the US’s wishes, its position will be compromised in the trilateral negotiations involving the US, Pakistan and Afghanistan. In addition, painstaking diplomatic efforts by the US to reach out to the people of Pakistan and the ensuing strategic dialogue initiated last year are at risk. Moreover, various aid packages from the US, on which Pakistan is heavily dependent, are also in jeopardy.

It is not that Washington’s own interests would not be hurt by this impasse in relations. Pakistan is critical to the US’s involvement in Afghanistan. The likelihood is that Pakistan will take help from the court. The government will try to defuse the situation by creating a fait accompli. The Foreign Office may declare Raymond Davis a diplomat by presenting relevant documents in the court. If Raymond Davis is spirited away in this manner, this will ruffle quite a few feathers among the religious and other rightwing parties, which are keen to pounce upon any opportunity to create instability. However, so much is at stake for both Pakistan and the US that there is greater probability that they will retreat from the brink. In real life when David met Goliath, he won, but a client state like Pakistan does not have the option of standing up to the Goliath that the US is. *
 
No, the point is to see if a Pakistan which celebrates killing one of its own governors because he sought to uphold minority rights remains civilized enough to follow international norms. This precedent will affect Pakistani relations with many countries around the world, not just the U.S.

If you repeat this reasoning in front of a judge, you will be ejected from court.

The Salman Taseer murder has absolutely no relevance to this case. Just as terrorist attacks have no relevance to this case. Bringing up such irrelevancies may score cheap points with onlookers but, in reality, it only serves as an admission that you have no resposne to the main issue at hand.

The fact is that, even if diplomatic immunity is admitted, the right thing for the US to do is to waive such immunity so that the rule of law can take its course.

I already posted a case where the US sought waiver of diplomatic immunity for a foreign diplomat implicated in drunk driving manslaughter. Here's another case involving Britain and India.

UK asks India to waive diplomatic immunity to 'wife beater' envoy

Britain on Monday asked India to waive the diplomatic immunity for Anil Verma, a senior Indian diplomat accused of assaulting his wife, saying it does not tolerate envoys working in the UK breaking the law.

If waivers can be requested for wife beating and manslaughter, they can certainly be requested for double murders.

The decision is up to the United States. Does it stand for rule of law, or does it hold its officials above the law?
 
This is fully double standard by US.
Diplomats with gun shooting 2 people (no matter who they are) same time another team coming to rescue.
He can speak fluently in local language. Don’t have any proof of diplomats and haven’t traveled on VISA for diplomats.
He doesn’t want to cooperate with local administration and top of that US govt. acting like a bully.
This is not so fare. If US govt. can track Indian student with Radio tags and applies counties law then why can’t Pakistan go with their law system?
Can US learn from Egypt example? Why you always want to bully small nation under name of diplomacy?
Pakistan should not back down now. It’s your land and you have to respect it.
 
This is not terrorist equipment this is standard equipment for the US Democracy Standards Diplomatic Norms.

You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.

Oh this is the standard "diplomatic" norm of USA. Looks like someone in the USA diplomacy loves to play Hitman inside Pakistan. :rolleyes:
 
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